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scholarship in pagan themed books  

post #1 of 43
6/22/04 at 11:39pm
Thread Starter 
hey, this is inspired by a thread we had in sprituality where someone was asking about pagan books. And the issue of scholarship was brought up.

So maybe we can have a thread on how to tell good scholarship from bad in pagan books? And hopefully this won't be a thread that just says "don't buy anything by Llewellyn" because there is alot more to scholarship than just avoiding one publisher.

First off I'd say any book that perpetuates the 6 million (or whatever high number is the current fad) Wiccans and/or Witches were killed during the burning times is automatically suspect.

Any book that doesn't admit the real 20th century foundation of Wicca.

Any book that claims that "paganism" is one religion. Usually also includes the Wiccan Sabbats as the "pagan holidays".

Any book that claims that Wicca and Witchcraft are the exact same thing.

That Wicca is Celtic.

That reconstructionist religions are exactly the way ancient pagans did it.

That historical pagans celebrated an 8 fold calendar know as Sabbats.



I could go on, anyone else?

I think the bottom line is any book that claims something as historical that actually isn't. I don't really have a problem with modern practice, just call it what it is.
post #2 of 43
6/23/04 at 10:49am
Pretty good list of things to watch out for. DS is running about so I can't say much now. The only thing off the top of my head to think of adding is to watch out for pagan authors who just cross reference each other & not anyone else.

I'll be back after DS goes to bed tonight & probably add more.
post #3 of 43
6/23/04 at 12:04pm
Thanks. That is great information, especially for new seekers like me who don't really know how to seperate the good info from the fluff. I get alot of the titles I choose to read from people on this board who recommend them.

Good thread topic!!
post #4 of 43
6/23/04 at 11:29pm
A few other things I'd recommend avoiding:
  • Anything with a weird spelling of the word "magic." It's not "magick," "majik" or "madgique" (OK I made up the last one). IMHO, it's pretentious. And annoying. And silly. And annoying.
  • Overly "feminist" leanings with the implication that paganism is a "female (woman/girl) thing." I have no problem with honoring divine feminine, but sometimes it gets to the point of denigrating the divine masculine.
  • Pictures of teenyboppers in belly shirts on the cover. Dead giveaway the book is aimed at the suburban teenage/preteen girl market and will likely be full of "Make my crush LUV me" spells.
  • Authors who use titles like "High Priest/ess," "Lady/Lord," etc. in front of their names. It's one thing to mention being clergy in one's own coven, either in the introduction or author biography; "by Lady Soandso, High Priestess of Fuzzy Happy Kitten and Puppy Coven" blazing across the cover is a different animal completely.
  • Authors who claim to be "from a long line of witches (or Wiccans, or druids, or priestesses, or whatever) Sure they are. And I'm from a long line of internet users. It just isn't possible.

With regards to Llewellyn Books, they do rather stink as a publising house. Some of their authors are pretty dang good (Scott Cunningham leaps to mind, and there are several others), but the publishing house has no discernable quality control. That IMO is why their books get lumped into the "run screaming from the bookshelf" category. They have some great stuff, it can just be hard for a beginner to discern between it and the offal.

And something else to consider: move BEYOND the New Age shelves to anthropology, history, mythology, and archaeology to help you know what's good and what isn't back in the New Age section, and to spark curiosity. The book that got me interested in Reconstructionist Druidry was an archaeology book about the Lindow Man bog body.

Edited to add: just because a book is "bad" scholastically doesn't necessarily mean one ought not read it. Some have historical importance (for example, Margaret Murray has been pretty well proven wrong, but since Gardner DID use her as an influence when "creating Wicca" (for lack of a better way of saying it right now), her works can almost be considered "required reading" for someone interested in knowing where Wicca came from). Others can lead you to asking critical questions that lead you to better choices.
post #5 of 43
6/24/04 at 12:43am
I think this is a pretty good list except for this:

Overly "feminist" leanings with the implication that paganism is a "female (woman/girl) thing." I have no problem with honoring divine feminine, but sometimes it gets to the point of denigrating the divine masculine.
post #6 of 43
6/24/04 at 1:25am
I don't see anything wrong w/ the feminist Goddess-worshippers, it's a legit path for some people.
post #7 of 43
6/24/04 at 1:26am
Thread Starter 
I think she is referring to those that make men feel that they aren't welcome and that it's only a womans path.
post #8 of 43
6/24/04 at 9:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna
I think she is referring to those that make men feel that they aren't welcome and that it's only a womans path.
Exactly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravin
I don't see anything wrong w/ the feminist Goddess-worshippers, it's a legit path for some people.
I don't see anything wrong with that path either. It's when people on that path use it as an excuse for man-bashing and male-deity-bashing I begin to question. Also, oftentimes some in the feminist-pagan movement (some more popular published authors included) expand the notion that men don't belong in ANY pagan path. They use their spirituality and religion as part of a political agenda. (By "they" I don't mean ALL, just the subsection I was describing above).

I do have to admit my own bias here though. My dad is a Gardnerian Wiccan. I have good male friends in several different pagan paths. And it's something I've seen them deal with all my life. They get accused of "playing Wicca just so they can meet chicks." Or "only being here because you're wife's got you whipped." Or being "perverted freaks who think we're (meaning pagan women) all easy." Or "you just want to see us all naked at a skyclad ceremony."

If you go to any pagan shop or bookstore with a decent "New Age" section, you'll likely see a TON of books aimed at women and, increasingly, younger and younger girls). I can only think of ONE recent book off the top of my head aimed at men.
post #9 of 43
6/24/04 at 11:17am
Good list Karen ann.

The "pagan is only a women's path" type athours seem to forget that cultures/tribes/societies back before Christianity (and since!) were made up of BOTH males and females. No doubt there were some things done by each away from the other, but the men were as much a part of those Cultural religions as the women.

There were both male Gods and female Gods in all of them as far as I can tell.
post #10 of 43
6/27/04 at 9:30pm
Any book that tries to claim that "skyclad" was the way the ancients in the British Isles celebrated the winter solstice (can you say BRRRRRRR!, knew you could!).
Any book that claims that the ancients were a peace loving matriarchial hippie commune type enviroment and this ancient feminist eden was only spoiled when the evil icky male type "people" got uppity and decided to take control.....and of course messed it all up! (ok, little toungue and cheek, but beware the book that claims Murray as a research reference!).

MM
post #11 of 43
6/28/04 at 12:15am
Thread Starter 
good ones Manitoba Mommy!!
post #12 of 43
6/28/04 at 11:43am
I second moving away from the New AGe section and grabbing some good history books. I"d add mythology, and books of other religions as well, since nothing develops in a vacuum. Also, books on archeology and art history.

I was a religion and history double major, and learned loads from my textbooks that I wish that the "witchy" books had.

I hate the current teen witch make my bf or gf love me crap. I do like Silver Ravenwolf's book of shadows that's geared to teens. Good reference (hate the other stuff).
post #13 of 43
6/28/04 at 12:55pm
I agree with you Ruby. When attempting a recreationist religion (not that all Pagans are or would want to...) it is best to go to the source when at all possible. For the Asatru that would make the sagas and eddas a must, for the Greeko-Roman recons, that makes the classic philosophers and poets/play writes a must.
Nothing wrong with modern interpretation but you should make sure you have a complete founding in the origions at one point or another. Besides, some of them make realy good reads!

MM
post #14 of 43
6/28/04 at 1:21pm
Thread Starter 
about Karen Anns "the publishing house has no discernable quality control. "

I agree with you that publishing houses do matter, I prefer stuff published by the university presses, but obviously authorship matters also. What is the authors agenda or personal bias? Those are also things I take into consideration, sometimes it's more clear than others.
post #15 of 43
7/12/04 at 9:35pm
What an interesting thread! :
post #16 of 43
7/12/04 at 10:54pm
I'm always a big fan of understanding the roots of things in order to gain perspective; I recommend A History of Pagan Europe by Prudence Jones and Nigel Pennick, Barnes & Nobles Books, 1995. It's a bit academically thick but hey, so's the history!
post #17 of 43
10/3/04 at 11:39pm
Thread Starter 
bumping
post #18 of 43
10/4/04 at 5:19am
Howdy... I've just been reading the thread (thanks for bumping it lol). I agree about the mythology books being a good idea. I think there are many just starting out who don't really know about any of that because the "witchy books" often don't go into it.
post #19 of 43
10/5/04 at 3:53pm
Wow this is a good thread... definately keep them coming.. unfortunately i found a few of these books on when beginning my path and actaully found contradictions.. especially things like the three fold rule and then a chapter on how to make a man love you... or something along those lines... it can be hard to find decent books.. ive read Cunningham, Silver Ravenwolf, and a few others.. I tend to have a Celtic interest.. i dont know why.. im jus drawn to it... I also like taking bits and pieces of things and putting them together to suit what i like.. so im definately ecclectic..

ok now im done rambling.. we are now returning to your regularly scheduled posts...
post #20 of 43
10/5/04 at 6:27pm
Thread Starter 
Speaking of Celtic, I've been meaning to bring up the topic of Samhain as the Celtic New Year. My reading so far has shown that

1 there isn't any actual evidence to prove that Samhain was "the" Celtic New Year.

2 The Celtic peoples were not universal in their practices and beliefs and probably not in their calendars as most ancient tribal peoples weren't

3 The concept of Samhain being the Celtic New Year comes from James Frazier and it was his supposition.

4 From there it was taken as fact and has since been repeated in so many pagan books that people believe it is true and can be proven.
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