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Circumcision - Page 2

post #21 of 78
"Kind of off topic - Its funny how quickly your son's uncircumcised penis becomes "normal" looking to you!"

Reading this reminded me of when I saw my baby nephew's circ'd penis, I was embarrassed because it looked so naked and exposed and... well, phallic. With an intact penis you don't see the glans unless it's erect. But circumcised boys always have an exposed glans. I guess to me (and this was kind of a shock because I hadn't expected to feel this way) it seemed like this little boy's sexuality was on display. Whereas when I look at my son's penises I don't feel that way -- they have a covering, like my daughter's private parts.
post #22 of 78
Jen wrote: "A friend of mine, an M.D., hates doing circs"

One has to wonder why he does them then?
post #23 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueviolet
Jen wrote: "A friend of mine, an M.D., hates doing circs"

One has to wonder why he does them then?
hear hear, I finally said straight out to her "if you hate doing them, why do you? You're a full-fledged member of this practice now, not a resident, you can do what you want!". I will keep encouraging her to tell her patients that she finds them unnecessary and that they would have to go to someone else if they wanted them done. Up til now she has been a resident at a major hospital and had little choice. If she lost a patient or two that way, I don't know if it would be a real loss. She is a super doctor otherwise, and a lot of patients are actually following her to her new practice now that her residency is done!
post #24 of 78
DS who is two in not circed, DH is. We hadn't been dating that long when the subject came up (I have NO idea how LOL!) and I just told future DH that no way in HELL would I ever agree to do cosmetic surgery on a newborn. Luckily he didn't feel passionately about it either way but honestly I think that could have been a deal breaker for me.

Steph
post #25 of 78
No Circ here, either. DS is intact and this baby will be, too. I had to put my foot down with DH (he circ'd his first child) but I feel strongly that it's not our decision to make. It's a cosmetic procedure, not a medical emergency.

Glad to see there are so many intact boys running around out there.
post #26 of 78
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom2baldie
Caroline,

I completely agree. Riley, Paityn and #3 are our children, not mine. But the thing is, Rileys and this ones (if I have a boy) body are NOT ours. They belong to them and them only. My husband nor I have the right to make that decision without their consent.

I hear this line of reasoning a lot, and I have to say that as the parent, we do have that right, if we truly think we are doing better for them. I am not saying circ'ing IS better, just that my husband believes it is. I mean, if my 5 year old was to say that she only wanted to eat cookies for the next year, should I say okay because it is her body?

I am not saying it is the same thing, just stating why this line wouldn't work in our house. We are the parents, we do have the right to make decisions for our child....which is why we are in this predicament now! DH really thinks this is the right thing to do...of course, we haven't gone over all the info yet, that is tomorrow!

Caroline
post #27 of 78
I think, as a parent, I have the responsibility to protect my child (by not letting him eat junk food all the time, for example) but I don't have the right to alter his body as I see fit (like tattooing him, for example). (maybe the legal right, but not an ethical one)

I can respect your husband's point of view if he honestly believes circ'ing will "protect" his son, but I hope more research will change his mind.
post #28 of 78
Right, Caroline. For instance, my son dislocated his thumb badly enough that it could not be fixed without surgery. It was traumatic enough for him that if he'd had the choice he wouldn't have spent one minute in the hospital -- but I made the decision for him that he would (even though the surgery itself carried risks) so that he would not to have to go through life disabled.

Which is why I think Lynsey's statement has to be qualified thus: we do not have the right to make the decision to remove or permanently alter a normal, healthy, functioning part of another person's body without their consent. If it's about believing that the foreskin is just a useless flap of skin that harbors disease, well then education is the key. But if it's just about fashion or feeling a duty to one's society to conform, well then I'm stymied. I don't see how it's fundamentally different from female genital mutilation or foot-binding. Different in degree, perhaps, but not in kind.
post #29 of 78
Wow, this thread is going along MUCH differently than the circ thread I started on my two mainstream twin boards, haha!!! I was attacked for putting the link to the "Where's My Foreskin?" article; can you imagine their responses if I posted a link to that video?!?

Caroline, thank you for the thread, and for the video link. I just watched the 3 minute one (second from the top) and it must be the most awful thing I have ever seen and heard. I will definitely send dh the link... to reaffirm his good decision 6 years ago with Nicolas.

We were ignorant new parents with no idea that someone wouldn't circ... Just seemed like what you do in the hospital after the birth. Never gave it a thought. Then my friend who ended up being our doula loaned me that Mothering magazine article (it had just come out, hot off the press, in the spring or summer of '98 when I was about 4 months pregnant). I read it, was astonished and convicted, and passed it to dh. Who actually read it. (He never reads parenting or marriage stuff I give him! haha) He immediately was disgusted and there was no doubt for either of us that we would NOT be circ'ing any boys, even though dh is.

Though I don't know why dh is, since his mother is from Venice Italy, where it's very uncommon to do that to a boy. I guess she wanted him to look like his American daddy, (though I can't be sure, since I've never seen my fatherin law's penis nor have asked, hee hee). My dh, too, was most convinced by the fact that the foreskin adds to sexual pleasure later in son's life, but also by the horrific procedure. (Which will now be reinforced by watching that video.) It was also easier for him, perhaps, since he remembered that his cousins and uncles in Italy most likely weren't circ'ed. He also said that he never remembered comparing penises with his dad or with other boys at school...

Oh, then I remembered my nephew is intact, and turns out his daddy is too (my brother in law). HIS mother and I had a good discussion about her decision not to, 44 years ago.

I think I'll post the link on those other boards anyway. And let you know what happens.

I'll say a prayer for you both, Caroline and Kabes, that your husbands will get enough information to make the choice to leave their beautiful boys alone.

P.S. I'm a Christian, and that line I hear sometimes really gets on me from my ignorant Christian friends: "well, God ordered his favorite people (the Jews) to do it, so it must not be that bad". Thank goodness I'm not Jewish, because I am SO happy to leave baby boys just as God created them.
post #30 of 78
I always thought I would have my sons circ'd. Just seemed like the thing to do (didn't everyone do it?? ), never really researched it before. Then I met and married DH.

Never came up with the first pregnancy because we found out that DD was a girl pretty early.

I think it was about a month before DS was born, another board I was on had about 17 out of 70 of us all pregnant within about 6 weeks of each other. There was a lot of baby dust on that board. :LOL The discussion about circ'ing came up. That started a discussion between DH and I (you know how it is ) He was against (he's intact) and said it was a pointless procedure that no longer had a "purpose". We talked about it and I kind of deterred to him (not that I *really* was pro-circ anyways) because he was a little more "knowledgable" about the actual mechanics since he has one and I don't. Honestly, it really was a mutual decision to not. Radish won't be either. I think if I sent the video link (which I didn't click on, I don't need any nightmares ) to DH he'd stop talking to me. He says I always send this horrible and depressing stuff to him.

He agreed that the argument about "matching" is a crock and not a valid reason at all.

We were never pressured by anyone about it and no one in the family commented one way or another.

I can't remember if it was my OB or the hospital asked if we were circ'ing (only to find out if the procedure was needed) and we said no. Never another comment made. And when we went to our Pedi, he asked if we planned and we said no. He was like that's fine, it isn't a medically necessary procedure and explained "proper" cleaning care which of course was mainly LEAVE IT ALONE.

I rememeber a couple months later a friend asked my advice about not circ'ing (first boy after 3 girls) and she was getting a lot of pressure from family members (not her DH) about it. I was just supportive for her and was able to help her not second guess or worry about their decision not to circ.

Why do family members feel it is their right to force their parenting (and any other) views on others?? : :
post #31 of 78
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by msrog
P.S. I'm a Christian, and that line I hear sometimes really gets on me from my ignorant Christian friends: "well, God ordered his favorite people (the Jews) to do it, so it must not be that bad". Thank goodness I'm not Jewish, because I am SO happy to leave baby boys just as God created them.


Yeah..that arguement falls flat too...there are MANY things ordered in the Old Testament that most Christians don't follow, why in this country we pick THAT one, I have no idea!!! Anyone here offer a one year old female goat for sacrifice anymore??

Caroline
post #32 of 78
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueviolet
Which is why I think Lynsey's statement has to be qualified thus: we do not have the right to make the decision to remove or permanently alter a normal, healthy, functioning part of another person's body without their consent. If it's about believing that the foreskin is just a useless flap of skin that harbors disease, well then education is the key. But if it's just about fashion or feeling a duty to one's society to conform, well then I'm stymied. I don't see how it's fundamentally different from female genital mutilation or foot-binding. Different in degree, perhaps, but not in kind.


I am not disaggreeing with what is right/wrong about circ'ing, I just am saying that that particular arguemment will not work with my DH. I really am just looking for a way to discuss this with him that will work with his mentality....

Caroline
post #33 of 78
Caroline-

What specifically are his "reasons" for wanting to circ? I can ask David to give his input on them if you'd like. Might help your DH to hear from a man's point of view.
post #34 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by msrog

P.S. I'm a Christian, and that line I hear sometimes really gets on me from my ignorant Christian friends: "well, God ordered his favorite people (the Jews) to do it, so it must not be that bad". Thank goodness I'm not Jewish, because I am SO happy to leave baby boys just as God created them.
Okay, here's one for ya... My DH is circ'd, he's a family practice doctor who is trained to perform circs, he's Jewish, and he's adamantly opposed to circs. It's going to be very interesting when DH's mom first changes baby's diaper. Sometimes, I just love to rock her world -- hee, hee!

Kelly
post #35 of 78
Another September momma here. DS won't be circ'ed. DH isn't either. Wasn't too much discussion on it really.

Sometimes we wonder because my grandfather had to be circ'ed in his 80's and it was apparently very painful. But should we really remove something on the off chance it might need to be removed later? I mean, I got my tonsils out at 18... should we take out everyone's tonsils just in case?

So we won't be circ'ing. We do feel the foreskin has value for sexual pleasure.
post #36 of 78
Wow, Kelly, that IS a unique situation!!! What fun for you to see your mil's reaction, hee hee.

Thanks for sharing.
post #37 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caroline248
there are MANY things ordered in the Old Testament that most Christians don't follow, why in this country we pick THAT one, I have no idea!!! Anyone here offer a one year old female goat for sacrifice anymore??

Caroline

Ummm... Christians don't sacrifice b/c of Jesus' sacrifice, Jews no longer sacrifice b/c the Temple was destroyed...


Quote:
Originally Posted by yllek
Okay, here's one for ya... My DH is circ'd, he's a family practice doctor who is trained to perform circs, he's Jewish, and he's adamantly opposed to circs. It's going to be very interesting when DH's mom first changes baby's diaper. Sometimes, I just love to rock her world -- hee, hee!
I am more than a little concerned when people who know a few Jews (usually non-observant or reformed) who don't circ use this as a basis to their belief that circ'ing is wrong for all Jews. I just want to point out that this conversation can get a little dicey when you bring G*d into it, and unless you really want an all-out religious debate where people could feel battered, it might be best to tread lightly.
post #38 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by mealymama
I am more than a little concerned when people who know a few Jews (usually non-observant or reformed) who don't circ use this as a basis to their belief that circ'ing is wrong for all Jews. I just want to point out that this conversation can get a little dicey when you bring G*d into it, and unless you really want an all-out religious debate where people could feel battered, it might be best to tread lightly.
Who in the world said that circ'ing is wrong for all Jews? My mil will probably want to make the argument that because our baby is half-Jewish, he needs to be circ'ed, but DH feels differently. This issue is going to be an inflammatory one in this house when the baby arrives. However, my comment was not meant to spark a religious debate here, nor do I want to get into all the reasons why DH and I don't want to circ. Just participating in a thread looking to hear different partner's perspectives. I thought my DH's perspective was rather... um, unique.
post #39 of 78
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mealymama
Ummm... Christians don't sacrifice b/c of Jesus' sacrifice, Jews no longer sacrifice b/c the Temple was destroyed...




I am more than a little concerned when people who know a few Jews (usually non-observant or reformed) who don't circ use this as a basis to their belief that circ'ing is wrong for all Jews. I just want to point out that this conversation can get a little dicey when you bring G*d into it, and unless you really want an all-out religious debate where people could feel battered, it might be best to tread lightly.

I wasn't saying anything about Jews circ'ing or not. And we are not bringing God into it. Just different perspectives. Who said circ'ing is wrong for all Jews???? And I used my example because when Christ died, the Old Testament laws were abolished for Believers. My point was that many Christians blindly do it because it was called for in the OT. And quite honestly, I don't feel that this conversation was getting dicey at all...just people shareing opinions. If you read the first post, you would see the point of the topic I opened.

Caroline
post #40 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by yllek
Who in the world said that circ'ing is wrong for all Jews? My mil will probably want to make the argument that because our baby is half-Jewish, he needs to be circ'ed, but DH feels differently. This issue is going to be an inflammatory one in this house when the baby arrives. However, my comment was not meant to spark a religious debate here, nor do I want to get into all the reasons why DH and I don't want to circ. Just participating in a thread looking to hear different partner's perspectives. I thought my DH's perspective was rather... um, unique.



yllek ... this may be inflammatory, too, but there's no such thing as religiously "half-Jewish." Culturally, perhaps, ethnically, okay ... but religiously, no. And the obligation of bris milah is a religious one.

So according to the rules of the *religion* ... which is where the bris comes from ... your baby is not at all Jewish. And there is no need to circ. At all.

You may wish to remind your MIL of this, & thereby stop the argument before she starts it ...

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