or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Circumcision - Page 3

post #41 of 78
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by merpk
yllek ... this may be inflammatory, too, but there's no such thing as religiously "half-Jewish." Culturally, perhaps, ethnically, okay ... but religiously, no. And the obligation of bris milah is a religious one.

So according to the rules of the *religion* ... which is where the bris comes from ... your baby is not at all Jewish. And there is no need to circ. At all.

You may wish to remind your MIL of this, & thereby stop the argument before she starts it ...

That sounds like a raelly great way to explain it to the In-laws...but of course, we christaned our babies becasue my MIL said we had to....it was the Catholic tradition. Of course, we are not raising our babies Catholic..but that is another thread!!

It is such a tough call sometimes to reconcile your cultural/ethnic beliefs with another theory.

Ok..this thread is going to get all riled up, which is exactly what I didn't want to do. That is why I posted it here and not in the circ board...I still haven't figured out how to go about hte topic with my DH....

Caroline
post #42 of 78
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mum2tori
Caroline-

What specifically are his "reasons" for wanting to circ? I can ask David to give his input on them if you'd like. Might help your DH to hear from a man's point of view.


I think his reasons are not really medical, more societal. We honestly don't know ANYONE IRL who hasn't circ'ed their baby. So the whole "It is becoming more mainstream" doesn't work. I think he is afraid of his son being different, and that is all it boils down to. He says he was done, our son was done...all those men that were done really don't have issues...you know, the usual "I got over it..so will he".....

I don't think he feels it is a big deal, so why not do it? TO ANTI-CIRC'ING READERS.... I know, there are reasons..I am NOT argueing the point to do it or not to do it. I am trying to have a conversation with my DH, approaching things from his view....the medical stuff does not work for him.

Caroline
post #43 of 78
Caroline, So when your little boy is 10 will it be okay with your dh if he picks on another kid because everybody else is, or smokes a cigarette because everyone else is? Because really what your dh is wanting to do is give in to peer pressure.

Also, every child is going to be different in one way or another. And that isn't a bad thing. And it's our job as parents to teach them that being different isn't a bad thing. If a bully wants to pick on your son he will find something to pick on.

If your son is intact and in a locker room and another guy is making fun of his penis, don't you think that guy is the weirdo???

I'm sorry you are in this situation. I agree with the others who said that knowing what I know I would never let a child of mine be circ'ed. Our children are ours together but neither of us has a right to alter those children's bodies in any way that is detrimental, painful, and irreplaceable. Certainly we will make decisions for our children but it is our job to make the *right* decisions for the *right* reasons.
post #44 of 78
Thankfully, for Jerome and I, this really hasn't been an issue. My hubby is cir'd, has never really felt the loss, but has no desire to have his child "match" him.
We both are generally of the opinion that the foreskin is there for a reason and there is no sense in subjecting a child to unneeded surgery. If we are unwilling to give birth in hospital in order to avoid interventions... etc then why would we elect to have a child "altered" by the same institutions we are avoiding in the first place???
I'm sure our child will have perfectly beautiful body (no matter what) and I can't hardly wait to see it!

Anna Banana
P.S. Besides the more of us "weirdos" say no to circumcision, the more "mainstream" it WILL be. Go crunchy granola mamas!
post #45 of 78
Did I ever mention that my three circ'd brothers never knew my dad was intact until about a year before he died (he was 75 when he died). And each of my bro's were very close to dad their whole lives.

So that goes to show you how much they paid attention to whether or not they "looked like dad"!
I didn't know my dad was intact until about the same time, (the subject came up after we started having problems with Donny's circ), and I thought it was so sweet how PROUD he was of his intactness!

Love ya, Dad!
post #46 of 78
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3under3
Did I ever mention that my three circ'd brothers never knew my dad was intact until about a year before he died (he was 75 when he died). And each of my bro's were very close to dad their whole lives.

So that goes to show you how much they paid attention to whether or not they "looked like dad"!
I didn't know my dad was intact until about the same time, (the subject came up after we started having problems with Donny's circ), and I thought it was so sweet how PROUD he was of his intactness!

Love ya, Dad!


Now that is interesting. The way my DH talks, you would think that men routinly compare their penis'. Weird. I think I am just not going to do it and not make a big deal about it. I am the one in the hospital, I will be the one filling out the forms. He won't confront me right after I have given birth!! I am pretty much golden for a while after that!!!!

Thanks to all you September mommies that helped...I appreciate it!

Caroline
post #47 of 78
No circing here, and dh is on board. DH is circ'd, and didn't really feel strongly either way, so me being against it was pretty much enough of an argument for him. I offered to show him research, but he was fine with trusting me, knowing I had done my homework.

I can imagine it would be tough to disagree on this subject, as women it is hard for us to know what the whole "life with a penis" world is all about. But its not like men walk around with them hanging out all the time. You can see the size and shape of most women's breasts by looking at them in public. I have certainly not had the privledge if seeing so many penises, nor has the average man. I'm glad we aren't boob-jobbing at the same rate so we all look alike.

I must admidt that I am a little disappointed I have never had the opportunity to have sex with an uncirc'd man. Too late now....
post #48 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by adventuregirl
I can imagine it would be tough to disagree on this subject, as women it is hard for us to know what the whole "life with a penis" world is all about.

DH tried the "you don't have to live with one" arguement.... I told him I have to live with his and how it functions definitely affects me, too.
post #49 of 78
I wasn't trying to say anybody had said anything wrong, I just didn't know where it was going, and *it can* get dicey, that's all. I'm sorry, I've seen some sort of unpleasant things in the circ'ing board and I got a PM from someone who was very opinionated about the subject of what Jewish families should and shouldn't do, and she wasn't Jewish... this came in response to a post in the vaxing board, she had no idea where I stood on circ'ing OR religion, but I guess she thought she'd throw in her 2 cents.
merpk, wouldn't the baby be a Jew according to reformed Judaism?
post #50 of 78
I didn't get a chance to post this yesterday. I told David about this thread. I explained what you were wanting input about Caroline.

He's response was:

What it really boils down to honestly is the "social issue" of being "different". Despite that common belief, guys don't stand around comparing themselves (okay maybe when they are 4-5 and also trying to convince the little girls to show them theirs too ) but not when they are older and it becomes a self esteem issue. It is your job as a parent to instill the self-confidence in your son that his body is beautiful and no one can make him feel that is isn't. And if there is a boy that ever says something to him in the locker room... it's THAT boy's issue. Not your son's. Your son should have the confidence to reply to the boy "Why are you looking at it in the first place? Why are you concerned with how I look?"



As time goes on, more and more boys will not be circumsized. It's isn't the quite the standard that it once was. Especially since if you ask most Peds and/or OBs (since they are the one to commonly do the procedure) it isn't a medical necessity.
post #51 of 78


Wow, I got really nervous when I read the initial post.......... and all I have to say is, good for YOU, mamas! You ROCK! Your children will not be traumatized by excruciatingly painful, unnecessary cosmetic surgery as infants.

If anyone has questions about intactness or circumcision, we have some extremely knowledgable people over on the "Case Against Circumcision" board that would love to hear from you!
post #52 of 78
We didn't circ our first two boys, and won't if this baby is a boy
Edited by Brisen - 11/16/13 at 1:38pm
post #53 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by mealymama
merpk, wouldn't the baby be a Jew according to reformed Judaism?
This is so off-topic it'll get us in trouble. But I'll risk it fast ... according to Reform Judaism, the child of a nonJewish mother and Jewish father is to be considered Jewish *only* if the family has a membership in a synagogue and the child is enrolled in classes and the family intends to raise the child Jewishly. So there is some sort of standard there. (This information is from BIL who is in the situation ... wife isn't Jewish, child isn't Jewish, but they have become active in the local Reform synagogue so that she will be considered Jewish there.)

Also, remembering that Reform officially denies the divinity of Jewish law, I am not understanding why the boy child of a Jewish father and a nonJewish mother would use their Reform Judaism as an excuse to circ. Not only is the child not Jewish, but Jewish law is not an issue for the Reform movement. So that's two strikes against a circumcision. Because it would *not* be a bris ... *again* because the child is not Jewish and the bris is based in a Divine decree.

Can't say it too many times. Tell the MIL to get over it. Really. If she insists that because her son is Jewish that her grandson is Jewish, and because of that they must circ, *she's wrong.* According to the Reform movement, it is not a requirement ... so why do it?

There. Have I said it enough?

Yeowch. Am waiting for the mods to tell me to delete, which I will happily do forthwith ...
post #54 of 78
Ooooh, Amy, you are sooo naughty!




:LOL
post #55 of 78
I'm kinda sorry I brought up the whole Jewish-thing at all. : The issue is slightly more complex because I am Asian whose parents are Christian, so our kid is going to have a bi-cultural/religious heritage. So my mil makes a lot of comments along the lines of making sure that "her side" is represented (this all started around the wedding). I don't really care whether or not she feels that we need to circ our son. We're not doing it - she'll have a little tantrum, but then she'll have to get over it. Thank you, ladies, for all your support. I'm not worried about my mil, just anticipating a lot of drama.

Anyways... I truly did not mean to hijack this thread. I just wanted Caroline to have a little more ammunition with a story about a circ'ed Jewish doctor who knows all about circ'ing little boys, but who also doesn't feel the social pressure that he's going to go through within his own community is enough to warrant a circumcision. (Whew - that was an awful sentence. I hope you could follow that).

Kelly
post #56 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by yllek
... I just wanted Caroline to have a little more ammunition with a story about a circ'ed Jewish doctor who knows all about circ'ing little boys, but who also doesn't feel the social pressure that he's going to go through within his own community is enough to warrant a circumcision. (Whew - that was an awful sentence. I hope you could follow that) ...
Yes, follow it completely ... and you should know that it's based on a false assumption.

Jews do not feel any social pressure to circumcise. They do, however, feel religious (and apparently cultural) pressure to have a bris milah ... which only pertains to Jewish boys, and of which circumcision is only a part (weirdly worded, too, I know) ...

It always sounds good to say "the Jewish doctor who won't circumcize," but like I say, that's based on the false assumption that Jews want anyone else to circumcize.

They don't.

post #57 of 78
"I think he is afraid of his son being different, and that is all it boils down to."

Well, the fact is that he is going to be different from *someone*, no matter what choice you make. Disclaimer -- to me, the social argument is not valid (not even if 100% of men in our society were circumcised!,) but going on the assumption -- that is, working from your husband's mindset -- that it is, here is what I would say:

Non-religious circumcision is something that happened for a very small part of human history -- several decades of the 20th century -- due to the notion that the foreskin invites disease (wrong) and that it aids sexual pleasure (right) which for a time was a big no-no. For no other reason were millions of men deprived of a functional organ. As the public and medical establishment have slowly become educated, the circumcision rate has dropped. In 1950 nearly 100% of male babies in the United States were circumcised; the rate has fallen steadily to where it is nationwide under 60%. In some areas the circumcision rate is closer to 40% (as is the case where I live.) Assuming that these numbers will continue to drop -- and they will, bar society becoming severaly sexually repressed again, because the science is on the side of keeping the foreskin intact -- by the time your son is an adult, he will be in the minority if he's circumcised.

Your husband is no doubt concerned about the present though. In other words, will your son be ostracized and humiliated when he is eight years old in the school locker room? If your husband is right -- if boys and men in your community have occasion to size up each other's penises and are obsessed enough with the way penises look to actually make judgements about them -- then it's a valid concern. Maybe that would do more harm to his psyche than not being sexually complete. But from my perspective it would be better to remove my son from such a repressive, judgemental culture than to permanently alter his body, without his consent, to fit into it.

My first husband was from the deep south, and I spent some time there with him. Despite initially believing that I was strong enough in myself to not be affected, my self-esteem plummeted when I was constantly being bombarded with messages that my natural self -- hairy armpits, plain hairstyle, no makeup, small breasts, big thighs -- were not acceptable in that culture. Rather than compromise that in myself which made me true and whole, I chose to leave that culture.

This is kind of how I think of body modification in general. If it is bogus for me to have to get breast implants or have liposuction to be acceptable (or, in other societies, bound feet, or female genital mutilation, or what have you) why isn't it bogus to remove my son's foreskin? In the cultures and sub-cultures that promote such body modification -- often without the consent of the person it's being done to -- they regard the modification as either an improvement or not a big deal. Looking at it from the outside, though, we have perspective to see what is being lost.

And what if -- just what if -- your son doesn't experience the locker room judgementalism that your husband apparently has? What if he goes off to college or to live somewhere that the circ rate is negligible, and he learns what foreskins are for? How will he feel when your son asks him why he removed a sexually valuable part of his anatomy?
post #58 of 78
I want to add, too, that my children are intact and my husband is circumcised. They see each other naked, and frankly, nobody has yet found it distressing that their penises look different from one another's. I honestly believe -- at least as far as fathers and sons go -- that it is a myth that they will become mentally disturbed by having a penis that is not exactly the same. It is not as if my husband is waving his erect penis around for them to see and claiming that is the standard of manhood, you know? They don't sit there comparing their penises in detail. They really don't. And when they do figure out that their papa's penis is significantly different than theirs, I imagine that when I explain why they *will* be upset -- for their papa's sake. For my sake even. But I suspect that they will feel lucky and thankful that they were spared, rather than traumatized because they are different. I figure that's how I'd feel if I found that my mom's body had been artificially altered in some way and mine hadn't.
post #59 of 78

tricky subject, even among friends

This weekend i got to meet a lovely little 2 day old boy named Korbin. As he was handed to me to hold, his mother (my dear friend) said " I hope he isn't too fussy for you, he was circumcised today"
It was interesting to me how dissapointed I was for him, that after 2 days of life, he had part of his lovely perfect little body removed. It must have shown on my face, cause she then asked me if I was going to have a boy cir'c or not. I non-chalantly said we were not intending to circ any of our sons. I didn't make a big deal of it at all, but she then proceeded to explain / justify their decision.

I didn't need her to justify it to me. It was their decision, not mine. However, i must admit her explanantion washed pretty thin, in my eyes. So he can match his father (her boyfriend of 10 months) and his older half brother. Hummmmm.... It seemed like she wished he was intact, but went along with the father's will in this case.
Personally, I don't expect their relationship to last and think she's gonna be left with mixed feelings about this choice forever. Obviously, I didn't voice this opinion... but found it interesting that we (two good friends) were tip-toeing around the issue.

I guess my point is that if you personally feel strongly about this matter it is your right and responsibilty to stand up for your child. If you end up regretting it later you have no one to blame but yourself.
I think the whole situation would have bothered me less if it hadn't seemed like she wasn't sure the right thing had been done.

Just my two cents
Anna Banana
post #60 of 78
Caroline,

Have you spoken to your pediatrician about his/her views on circumcision? I was pleasantly surprised when I spoke to mine when pregnant with Paityn (before we found out she was a girl) and she was very encouraging about leaving boys intact. I live in Texas and she said that in this area (I know its different everywhere) that the locker room excuse just doesnt hold up anymore because so many parents are deciding to leave their boys alone. Supposedly when Paityn (and this new baby) are teenagers, intact boys will be the majority (again, this is around here).

So maybe they will all be making fun of each other, but at least the numbers will be a bit more even...
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: September 2004