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Disapointed with AP - Page 4

post #61 of 103
Piglet, I've read through a few different threads and I was thinking, Umm she's pretty opinionated. I have a feeling if we were all discussing things face to face it would be so much easier. We miss so much of conversation without being able to clarify ourselves or being able to read body language and facial expressions.

I've had successes and failures with AP. I think it's a terrific philosophy and one that should be spread, but I don't think we should expect every bit of AP to jive with everyone. Take my son for example. He hated the sling. Cried everytime I tried to put him in it. I called my AP buddy and had her come over and help me with the sling (maybe I was doing it wrong) but she couldn't figure out why he hated it either. Then I tried the Baby Bjorn. Hated that too. Turns out he didn't even like being swaddled. I had a feeling in utero that he didn't like tight spaces (it often felt like he was trying to fully stretch out in there). Anyway, he liked being held and he also liked just lying around on the floor observing the world. It was a matter of setting aside what I thought was best for what actually worked for him.

I also didn't breast feed. I would have loved to, but I had breast cancer in my twenties and had a double mastectomy. But I really hate giving that as my reason b/c I know some women who just never felt comfortable with it or never got the hang of it. I know they always feel that they have to explain their decision and I think they feel some guilt about it, but the truth is, in today's world we have choices. Breast is definitely best, but I don't think my son is worse off for not BFing. He seems healthy and fine to me.

We co-sleep and we are very nurturing. We don't spank and we really try to find out what our son needs if he is having trouble telling us, but we also do a sort of time out. It's actually a "peace table". If someone in the house is being peevish or is upset and won't respond kindly to inquiries, then we say "maybe you should visit the peace table". We have smooth shiny rocks at the peace table that you can pick up and rub. it's very soothing. You can turn on the fountain or look at pictures that are soothing. We have different things we all put at the peace table. Things that sooth us and make us feel better. We also taught our son how to do deep breaths from his stomach. He actually learned this in a kids yoga class. So we also encourage breathing when at the peace table. But it sounds too idyllic. There are times when he'd rather destroy the peace table and scream at the top his lungs rather than take a breath. Sometimes I feel like that too. When I feel that way or dh or ds. we have to go our room and be alone until it passes b/c it's not fair to the rest of the family who lovingly tried to help you before you threw the toy across the room and called them all "stupid". If you know what I mean.

Children need to learn what is appropriate behavior. It should be done in a kind and loving way, but it may also require that one has one own space for a short while to recompose oneself. It's not a punishment. It's a need. We all need that space to vent once in a while.
post #62 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilesoflaundry
And my ds is out of control, he is 5. I don't know what to do with him but I do think he has adhd so that might be more to do with him than with being ap. I really stink at the discipline thing . I don't want to yell but I do, I don't want to spank and 99% of the time I don't but then I get so frustrated with him that I do. I grew up in a yelling, screaming , spanking house so I have no real good parenting model. How do I do this gently without making spoiled brats??
I'm sorry you are going through a hard time, but please don't label your child.
I see this too much on AP forums.

I know I'm going to be jumped at here, but parents nowadays are eager to be told it's not their fault when things go wrong. It would be a relief not to be blamed and have that magical medicine sort it all, and you know better what you can cope with, but think again.

I think this way: my chilld is not hyperactive, it's me who is a slow-poke. And it's true. To my child the world is new and he is eager to explore it. We as mothers are happy to sit for hours and just chat online about mundane things or whatever.

I don't buy "chemical imbalance in the brain" theories. There is no test to measure chemicals in live brains, doctors just pick social unacepted behavious and then classify them as sympmoms.

I speak from experience. I was diagnosed as bi-polar some time ago and the truth is my parents were unable to help me. I was in a time of life I had to decide a career, and although they supported me in my choices, all I had was the choice to study in a crappy outdated art college. Studying abroad was never an option (no money I'm afraid), so I felt I had no choices in my life. I was obviously tired of studying for nothing and feeling trapped and got ill.

It's not like the brain as an organ can't get ill or damaged, but when there are social situations likely to cause mental distress, we should consider them first.

If you are yelling and smacking your ds he will behave horribly. It's how I detected my ex was abusing him, not only the bruises, but that my child was behaving horribly and so out of character.

I remember once I was punished because I was playing ball at home and broke something. Now whose fault is it I'm playing ball at home, when I wasn't allowed to play outside by my own and my mother didn't take me to the park times enough?

So I advise that instead of focusing on disciplining to stop the bad behaviours, focus on the roots of the problem. Try to look at it from a positive perspective. Like instead "Oh my god, my kid is throwing all the books from the shelves down, it was AP or maybe he's ADHD" try to think "The kid is wrecking the house and it's not acceptable, I'll stop him but I'll also try to find something he can do that is fun..."

This is what I try to do. I've been finding the good old "they do it for attention" is still so true. And they deserve attention, not like in the form of a benevolent public for their bad performances, but in the form of someone that recognises they need help to channel all that energy into something good.
post #63 of 103
I'm not just labeling my child, he really is out of control and I really do believe something is up with him whether or not it is ADHD or not. And I am not the first or last person to notice it. I don't see how much more I can do for him/with him or how many more hours a day I can get him outside. As it is I have to make him come in and drink something and eat, he asks to go outside the second he gets up in the morning and whines when I tell him he has to come in. He has a ton of books, toys, and art supplies and he uses those too.

And it's not just pulling stuff off the shelves, I really wish it was something that basic. He is very impulsive, he could be drinking something and then decides he doesn't want it anymore so he just dumps the cup on the table. He decided he hated his glasses so he broke them in half (2 pairs!). He destroys things when he suddenly decides he doesn't want or like them even if they don't belong to him. He can't just walk with you he has to run in the street, he walks right up to cars pulling out of parking spots because he wants to touch them. I can be holding his hand and all of a sudden he breaks lose from me. He opens things in stores, he can't be confined in a room for long at all. Forget waiting in the exam room at the docs office, in 5 minutes the sink is flooded, he is jumping off the exam table etc. I have to physically hold him in my lap to keep him in one spot.

He has tried to suffocate his baby sister, he has tried to hurt himself and me. He runs through the house like an animal, he can't ever be quiet, ever. It's not just that he is talkative, he also makes lots of very loud noises all day long without ever stopping. He has gotten worse and worse since he turned age 3. He is into everything, if I tell him not to touch something it's like I'm not talking to him at all. He zones us out. He tells me he doesn't want to do things but "his brain makes him". That's what he says, I don't know what to think but does this sound like normal behavior to you??

My dd doesn't do anything like this at all and the only kids I do know that act this way have been diagnosied with something like adhd/add etc. My kids have been parented pretty much the same way so I don't really think it's my discipline.
post #64 of 103
It sounds like you really do need a psych eval mama, these are not normal behaviors.
post #65 of 103
wow, pilesoflaundry, you must be exhausted!
post #66 of 103
Thread Starter 
Does he watch Cartoon Network?
post #67 of 103
Satori, yeah I have mentioned that to dh, especially since mental illness and brain disruptions like add run in my family a lot on my mom's side. Dh thinks he is just acting up and I used to think that but after 3 years of this I'm thinking there is much more to this than being a boy kwim?

And Piglet, you have no idea how much! :LOL Some days are better than others if I can manage to keep him busy for every second of the day or I cave in and tell him to watch a movie. That one thing can keep him still for a little while so I can relax if it's a movie he likes. If it isn't or it's a movie that further excites him for some reason then he is more off the wall. The hard part is sometimes the same movie that calms him one day has him bonkers 3 days later. But some days all I can do is pray for bedtime to come quick.
post #68 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonor
Does he watch Cartoon Network?

Not usually. Once in a great while dh has let him or I think he saw some of it at a friends house because he came home talking about some show that I think is on that channel. He watches mostly movies or sometimes nick jr.
post #69 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilesoflaundry
Not usually. Once in a great while dh has let him or I think he saw some of it at a friends house because he came home talking about some show that I think is on that channel. He watches mostly movies or sometimes nick jr.
All the same. Your kid is acting up like a cartoon, even what he said about the brain is cartoon talk!

Also, you seem to be a very social family, lots of friends, loud, etc, am I wrong?
post #70 of 103
Leonor, considering you don't know me or my family you are making assumptions. We aren't a very loud family IMO. But anyway this thread isn't about me, or my ds and all of his behavior issues. You said yourself you don't believe in disorders like this, that is fine and your opinion but I don't wish to discuss it further with you as I have derailed this thread enough.
post #71 of 103
Leonor,

Another incorrect assumption is that a child who is labelled ADHD will automatically be given medication. There are many non-pharmaceutical ways to help kids with ADHD be successful. In my work with kids that were labelled ADHD, we took over 50 % of them off of their meds and taught them coping strategies.

I was actually more taken aback by the labels you gave your own son in the original post. "Spoilt, horrible teeth, not especially smart" seem like much more damaging labels than ADHD.

Back to the original post, though, how are things going?

L.
post #72 of 103
(((((Piles))))))

I would have him evaluated. It sounds like he is quite a spirited little guy and you may need to find out the best way to connect with him. I know when I found out my DD has SID, I was very relieved.
post #73 of 103
Pilesoflaundry - I highly recocomend professional help. A thourough evaluation both medically and psycologically. I am not trying to be insulting but that is far frm the range of normal even for a spirited kid.

Lenore - Sorry but OI haven't read every post. If I am repeating anything i am sorry. I hope this doesn't sound to preachy. But first and foremost set some boundries. Start with 3 things and work on those and if everything else doesn't fall into place, choose three more and work on those. They are not arbitrary boundries. They don't bug you for no good reason. Lest start with nursing. Nipple twiddling hurts. From day one I would remove my baby from the breast if they didn't respond to redirection after the first time (granted they didn't start nipple twiddling until they were around 7 or 8 months). Needless to say I never had my nipple twiddled more thana time or two. I can just hardly bare to nurse at all much less have my nipple abused and twiddled. Did they cry when I ended the feeding? You bet they did. But it only took a couple of times before they made the connection and it didn't hurt them to wait 5-45 minutes for thier meal to finish. (depending on how old they were). Not arbitrary. If you want to nurse you have to be nice. Bedtime (you haven't brought this up but I would bet that a regular bedtime would be helpful - if nothing else to give you a break) It isn'
t arbnitrary because he can't function without proper rest and I d on ot buy that kids know when they are tired and will merrily drift off to sleep when they get tired. I htink most kids nee help identifying thier sleep signals and will fight it tooth and nail. My kids go to bed at 8 wether they are tired or not but at least I am off for the night and they are in a sleep inducing environment. Did they protest when we started this. Absolutely. Especially my middle child (who is four and generally my most stubborn about stuff). Teeth brushing. From your original post I gather you never forced him to brush his teeth. Ya know. You really only get one shot at healthy teeth so I will hold my children down and brush thier teeth. I don't have all the time in the world to bargin and persuade (and have never been against coersion - I don't see the big deal. I get coersed to do crap all the time. It hasn't wrecked me. I wish someone had coersed me into brushing my teeth because ihate when I open my mouth and see all the ugly fillings.)

As for throwing a fot anf crying and carrying on. I have never seen a 4 year old cry for longer than they wanted to. I have never seen them carry on for terribly long in the absense of an audiance. I have never sen any die from crying. I have seen one who could throw up on command and i made her help me clean it up and I sent her back to bed. she was just pitchin' a fit because she didn't want to go to sleep and her mom never told her when to go to bed but our house, our rules etc. . . I put her time out once and she made herself throw up. agin I had her help me clean it up and she finished her time out. She stopped doing it after that. He won't die from a tantrum. He is mad and angry and those are valid feelings that he is entitled to but he is not entitled to be a monster. And you are not doing him any favors by letting him become one. Once you get through the crying thing it will resolve and you will know the difference between real saddness and throwing a fit. I still throw fits someimtes. It is OK for him to be really mad and throw a fit but that doesn't change the fact that this is a give and take relationship and he has to follow the rules.

As for being dissapointed in AP I was totally dissapointed. I htink my dd was about 2 1/2 - 3. I hated the way the books made it sound like if you did this you would get this result. Bull. I got the exact opposite. I relized I started to start listening to my child and stop listening to the book. AP had a good point and being attatched was better than being detatched. Slinging was better than not slinging. Being open to the family bed was helpful. ALl good stuff. Not one bit of it will help turn your child into a great person in the absense of good parenting. Good instruction. You do need to teach them how to act respectfully and treat others as they would want to be treated. that they are not the center of the universe.

Anyway, I hope things can get better. A couple of books you might enjoy reading are "The 7:00 Bedtime" and "Parenting with Love and Logic " (take what you want and leave the rest behind) and "1,2,3 magic" again with the taking what you want. I think they all made some really good points that really changed what I expected of my children and helped us come to a place where we could both function happily.
post #74 of 103
Sandra, no it doesn't sound insulting at all. I have actually said to dh that sadly I think he needs some help. I am just afraid 2 seconds into the eval they will want to medicate him, the last thing I want are some happy pills kwim? I want to figure out what is up with him, and why it is happening before he gets meds if he even needs them. I am going to have him tested for food and other sensativities to see if some of this might be allergy related. I do notice some improvement with him if he doesn't have any cow's milk.
post #75 of 103
pilesolaundry
You are the mother and you know your son best. If you think there is a problem there probably is. I would definitely take him to a good pediatric neuropsychologist first, but also explore dietary and environmental ways to help him. You might consider seeing a naturopath that can make recommendations on dietary changes. You might also take him to an allergist and see if he has any allergies. I think there can be a lot of causes and ways to handle your son if he is ADHD that does not involve medication.

I make this recommendation b/c I was given only a 20% survival rate when I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I credit western medicine for destroying the cancer but eastern medicine in healing me. Dietary changes were the biggest difference in how I felt and how my body was able to heal itself. To this day I have a very different diet than the traditional american wheat, dairy and meat diet. After having cancer and all the chemo and radiation I was told that my eggs were probably toast and I may never get pregnant. But I credit the eastern and naturopathic remedies that made me one fertile mama.

I have also heard of yoga breathing and centering techniques that have been used with ADHD children, but I'm not sure about at your sons age.

Anyway, definitely follow your gut and start finding out what's going on with your son. It does not sound like normal behavior. I hope you find answers soon. Keep us posted.
post #76 of 103
Thread Starter 
Pilesofllaundry, I didn't make assumptions, I was asking. Sorry if the tone made it sound otherwise. For what I've seen from families I meet, social parents with very active lives usually have over-excited kids.

I honestly find it unfair you only list and describe your ds behaviours in detail, and leave the rest of the family life out. It's unbalanced. Because children learn by example. And I correctly guessed your child was watching a cartoon channel. But you just give us the data so people can say "oh, yes, certainly ADHD" people will say that. If that's the help you need, fine, I hope you get it. But I've seen this too much of this on AP foruns and I don't like it. I don't like the mental illness fashion.

I don't like to see children labeled and parents getting forgiven and hugged for yelling and spanking at them. Not that parents shouldn't be forgiven, but children should be forgiven FIRST! After all your at least 20 years older than him, you should know better...

I know I'm not the eloquent here and I'm not going to be heard, but wouldn't it be more simple to turn the TV off, or at least supervise what your ds watches? Children copy what they see. My kid only watches very gentle shows, and always with me supervising.
post #77 of 103
It is possible that this has been said before, I just didn't have the patience to read all the reply's!

I guess AP is like a religion if you will. Anything that is taken to an extreme can be seen as radical and somewhere you need to find a balance....

It might be time for AP to take a back seat and for you to gain your control....check out that Super Nanny show on Channel 4 this week...(fyi also in the UK!)

I would be weaning and sleep training if I were you!

Good Luck....

P.S. Are you in London?
post #78 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bklynmum
It might be time for AP to take a back seat and for you to gain your control....check out that Super Nanny show on Channel 4 this week...(fyi also in the UK!)
Hmm... I'm not sure about that show, it must be humilliting for the children. I picture those children as adults looking back at their childhoods being exposed on TV (millions of strangers) without their consent, it must not be a good feeling. I'm also not sure about the concept of a perfect stranger allowed in my family to fix our relatioships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bklynmum
I would be weaning and sleep training if I were you!!
I solved the problem without weaning, But I willl be less afraid to be a mother and do things wrong. I've been asking for too much advice on forums and following parent philosophies too religiously indeed. Nothing like common sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bklynmum
P.S. Are you in London
No, Nottingham.
post #79 of 103
I agree, the reality shows they have on these days are quite scarry....my DH works in tv and is constantly telling me how those shows manipulate the talent....I meant that you might be able to get some tips on solving your issues from the concept.....have you looked at the BBC Parenting Website, there are some great links and advice sites.

My 3 1/2 DD is driving me crazy at the moment. She is trying so hard to find her place in the world and constanly pushing the boundaries...and my buttons! It is so hard to remain composed especially with DS 1yr under my feet all the time. I think that 3 and 4 are just as hard as 2 and no body says anything about that when you sign up for parenting!

Good luck and be happpy....maybe you and your dear one need some time apart so that you can find a bit more of you to give....

B
post #80 of 103
Quote:
Pilesofllaundry, I didn't make assumptions, I was asking. Sorry if the tone made it sound otherwise. For what I've seen from families I meet, social parents with very active lives usually have over-excited kids.
I can understand that, but no we aren't very over loud and social. I do sometimes raise my voice in frustration because I've said "don't" "stop" etc 400 times that day. My ds loves to play with other kids, he is the most social one of us in the house. I don't mind talking to other people but I'm not an out hanging over the fence chatting all day person and I don't host people in my home at all really. And our lives are very laid back, no scheduled things like classes for the kids or anything.

And if you read my post again at the bottom I stated my dd doesn't do these things. She is parented the same way, she watches the same things, is disciplined the same way, eats the same food, etc. Everything is the same so why is my dd not this way?

Quote:
I honestly find it unfair you only list and describe your ds behaviours in detail, and leave the rest of the family life out. It's unbalanced. Because children learn by example. And I correctly guessed your child was watching a cartoon channel. But you just give us the data so people can say "oh, yes, certainly ADHD" people will say that. If that's the help you need, fine, I hope you get it. But I've seen this too much of this on AP foruns and I don't like it. I don't like the mental illness fashion.

I don't like to see children labeled and parents getting forgiven and hugged for yelling and spanking at them. Not that parents shouldn't be forgiven, but children should be forgiven FIRST! After all your at least 20 years older than him, you should know better....
I'm not asking for forgiveness and hugs, I don't want anyone kissing my behind. And I said I have only spanked him a very few times out of frustration. I'm not proud of it, I apologized and really it was real safety issues that brought it out in me. I"m not going to further explain myself to you. It's obvisous how you feel about these sorts of things. I'm not dismissing you because you don't agree, I'm doing it because you are trying to make me feel like I am doing my child a diservice and labeling him. I don't say anything to his face about the possiblity of him having a problem.

Again read my other posts, I don't want happy pills and a child that sits still and doesn't make noise. I just want him to get some help before he hurts himself or someone else.

Quote:
I know I'm not the eloquent here and I'm not going to be heard, but wouldn't it be more simple to turn the TV off, or at least supervise what your ds watches? Children copy what they see. My kid only watches very gentle shows, and always with me supervising
When did I say I don't supervise what he watches? And the tv is not always on, I know what he is watching and I often do watch something with him. 90% of the time he is playing with toys or outside running around the yard.

And I said he usually watches a movie (that I have carefully picked out) or nick jr. Nick Jr. doesn't advocate running in front of cars, talking about brains or voices in your head and they don't talk about suffocating your baby sister when mom leaves the room. Rarely he has seen something on cartoon network but it's been a few times a year. Not enough to cause 3+ years of very different behavior.

And what would you have said if I said we don't have a tv or he doesn't ever watch cartoons? Now because I said yeah he does once in awhile well you are right and I'm the labeling parent? whatever You are reading what you want out of my posts so that you can continue to tell yourself that you are right and that these things don't exist except on AP boards, ya know I've never seen a mainstream board mom say her kid has ADHD : .
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