How to approach Catholic friend and her Jewish husband re: circumcision?

[Mommiska]

A good friend of mine just found out she is expecting - dont' know, obviously, whether she's having a boy or a girl.

So, of course, I plan to somehow give her relevant information about circumcision - but I'm not sure how to approach it, since her husband is Jewish. I really don't want to offend, but I also don't want them to make that decision without all of the relevant info (let's face it - I don't want them to make that decision!).

Here's the thing - I KNOW for a fact, that any children they have will be raised Catholic. My friend spoke about this with her dh before they got married, and he agreed. That would have been a deal-breaker for her.

Supposedly, her dh is non-observant (I've only met him twice, briefly, so don't really know for myself - only what my friend has told me), but when they got married a couple of years ago, they got married on a Sunday (he wouldn't get married on a Saturday), and their wedding was a lovely mixture of both Christian and Jewish traditions - so it's obvious his Jewish heritage IS important to him.

Any advice on how to approach this? My friend is very, very reserved - hard to talk to about anything personal at the best of times, and this is pretty personal. And I don't know the dh, really, so don't know how he'll react to any anti-circ info.

If there is anyone reading this who is Jewish themselves, I would really appreciate your insight. I mean - the children are obviously not going to be raised Jewish, so that should make a difference, right?

I'm afraid I'm not expressing myself very well here - I really hope I'm not offending anyone, or writing anything that will get this post pulled! : Just looking for some advice...

[Sarah]

Just tell her the truth. Her husband's issues are his issues and you can't second guess them. No matter if he is a observant Jew or not, it's likely that he could be driven by all the "typical" issues that a man who was mutilated as an infant will struggle with, like having no understanding of the sexual function of the anatomy he never got to know. It's likely that they are needing all the basic information as well as the basic support that the decision to not circumcisie will not be questioned by "all" their peers.

Love Sarah

[laralou]

Since this forum doesn't allow for religious discussion, I am going to move this to Religious Studies.

See the religious discussion sticky at the top of this forum or PM me if you have any questions.

[Mommiska]

Oops - sorry. I was afraid this might get moved.

I'm not really looking to discuss circumcision from a Jewish perspective - I'm more looking for advice on how to give this couple the relevant information about circumcision without offending anyone. I'm really asking, I guess, how I can do this without stepping on any toes and/or getting into the whole circumcision as Jewish ritual thing with them...

[BelovedBird]

The baby will not be jewish. there is no "jewish ritual" issue in this situation.

[Mommiska]

Thanks, BelovedBird, for your reply. I don't know much about Judiasm, but I did know that since my friend is not Jewish, that would mean her child is not Jewish - aside from the fact that she will be raising him/her Catholic!

Even though any child from this marriage wouldn't be considered Jewish, I'm guessing it would be fair to say that this particular husband might be more in favour of circumcision than your average husband (and most circumcised American husbands tend to be in favour of circumcision anyway - simply because it happened to them, they don't see it as a problem, and most of them don't really know what is involved).

I guess what I'm asking is this - is there any way around any added sensitivities that bringing up circumcision might have with this couple, due to the fact that the father is Jewish? Is there a particular 'best approach' with this couple, taking into consideration that the father is Jewish?

I'm not sure this is the best forum for this...

[Free Thinker]

I'm going to be the voice of dessent here It's their decision! If I were you, I would wait to bring up anything unless they find out it is a boy. If it is, then I would only ask your friend to do a bit of research, and explain that most of Europe doesn't circ. nowdays b/c it is unnec. proceedure. I would *not* use the word "mutilate" or anything similar. If it is her DHs belief, then it should be respected. I am an atheist, so I'm not biased here or anything

[Arduinna]

I would definately suggest talking to them/her early and before they find out if it's a boy. It is much easier to discuss difficult subjects when you can do so with a spirit of general information and without the implication that you are telling them to not to circ their son. Before they know the sex the whole discussion isn't quite as specific. After all they don't know if it's a decision they will have to make for sure. And IMO early gives more time for education and dealing with personal issues that may surround the decision.

Once they know for sure they are having a boy (if so) then it becomes much more personal for them.

JMO

[merpk]

Since the thread got bumped to the Spirituality forum, am feeling free ...

Highly unlikely the husband here is "observant." He married a nonJewish woman and has agreed to raise his children nonJewishly. So circumcision shouldn't be an issue *at all.* As BB pointed out, there is *no* Jewish ritual involved here. The child won't be Jewish, and *not even according to the standards of the Reform movement.*

... by Mommiska
... Even though any child from this marriage wouldn't be considered Jewish, I'm guessing it would be fair to say that this particular husband might be more in favour of circumcision than your average husband ...

Again, the Jewishness has zero zip nada zilch to do with this, and it is not fair to say that at all. Jews are NOT procircumcision.

And any individual Jew who might be is just as likely as a nonJew to be, and their religion is irrelevant to the discussion.

Jews *are* pro-bris milah, which is a Jewish commandment, for Jews only, and of which the actual circumcision is only one part. An entirely different ball of wax than routine infant circumcision




Approach your friends as you would anyone else. The child isn't Jewish. And that's all there is to it.







Am editing to add and clarify and state it plain that there is no no no no no no no no need to circumcise this child for any reason. None. Even the Jews agree. No religious need, nothing. Tell them not to do it under any circumstances. No, don't do it. No. Not. Never.

Is it clear now?

[laralou]

Originally Posted by Mommiska

I guess what I'm asking is this - is there any way around any added sensitivities that bringing up circumcision might have with this couple, due to the fact that the father is Jewish? Is there a particular 'best approach' with this couple, taking into consideration that the father is Jewish?

I'm not sure this is the best forum for this...

Because your question is referencing the father's religious beliefs as they relate to circ, it isn't allowed in Circ. So this is the best forum for it. This forum allows for religious discussion without all of it having to support the religion. It doesn't mean you aren't going to get dissenters, kwim? Just try to reiterate your question as clearly as possible, take what helps, and ignore the rest.

[grahamsmom98]

Well, personally, it really isn't any of your business! What choices people make for their children are just that, THEIR choices.

You say "...of course, I plan to somehow give her relevant information about circumcision". Why?

If this is a subject you have spoken of in the past with these people, they already know of your feelings.

I know how I would and HAVE reacted at un-asked-for "advice" from "well-meaning" friends. It doesn't concern you!

I know we had (emphasis on the past tense of had) a friend over for lunch shortly after ds was born. Her kids are both grown and were on their own. She was in her 60's.

Immediately, upon finding out we had had our ds circumcised (she watch as I changed a diaper), commented how cruel we were to have mutilated our son. That someday he would realize what we'd done and hate us for it. That even uneducated Europeans (she is German) are smart enough not to do subject their precious sons to this horrible procedure. Did we even know what was actually done to our son???

Needless to say, I asked her to leave. She never asked why we chose to do this, not that it was - or is - any of her business. We've not had her in our home since.

She chose to vaccinate her children, but we never said anything anti-vac to her. She had formula fed, had used day care, and drank lots of beer while pregnant. We never made a single comment on HER choices, as it was/is none of our business.

Religious or not, this decision is the parents' decision, and you have NO business poking your nose into it. If you want to keep the friendship, I'd advise you to keep silent on the subject unless THEY bring it up and ASK for your opinion. After that, you're on your own. Until then, silence is golden.

[Ilaria]

I think it's great you want to educate your friend and I am sure she will appreciate it. Just give her all the standard info, it doesn't matter what religion her dh is.

Besides the fact that most of the world doesn't mutilate baby boys, Catholics certainly DO NOT. It is in fact a sin to disfigure your body.

[Mommiska]

Originally Posted by merpk

Highly unlikely the husband here is "observant." He married a nonJewish woman and has agreed to raise his children nonJewishly. So circumcision shouldn't be an issue *at all.* As BB pointed out, there is *no* Jewish ritual involved here. The child won't be Jewish, and *not even according to the standards of the Reform movement.*



Again, the Jewishness has zero zip nada zilch to do with this, and it is not fair to say that at all. Jews are NOT procircumcision.

Amy - thanks for your reply. I didn't mean to offend with my statement that this dad might particularly want to circumcise his son(s). My question assumed that there might be some emotional response in this Jewish dad to the 'to circumcise or not to circumcise' question - a response related to the fact that he was Jewish, but was agreeing to raise his children Catholic. I guess only this particular Dad could say whether or not the emotional response I'm assuming might be there actually IS there or not.

I see what you are saying, though, and you made yourself clear that there is no religious reason for the child to be circumcised. I do get this! I apologise if my wording offended; I know this is a sensitive topic for a lot of people.

[Mommiska]

Originally Posted by grahamsmom98

Well, personally, it really isn't any of your business! What choices people make for their children are just that, THEIR choices.

Religious or not, this decision is the parents' decision, and you have NO business poking your nose into it. If you want to keep the friendship, I'd advise you to keep silent on the subject unless THEY bring it up and ASK for your opinion. After that, you're on your own. Until then, silence is golden.

Hmm. Again, I know this is a sensitive subject for a lot of people. And if your son is circumcised, I can understand your reaction.

However, I'd just suggest that you have a look in the Circumcision forum at the thread 'If you regret circumcising your son, post here'. There are many, many mothers who desperately wish that someone had given them ALL of the information about circumcision that an individual should have in order to make an informed decision.

More significantly, there are many men out there who wish someone had given their parents this information.

Giving someone information about the function of the foreskin, the inadequacy of pain relief for infants, the fact that NOT everybody does it, etc., etc. before a child has been born is a FAR cry from castigating someone for a decision that has already been made and cannot be unmade. I'm sorry that happened to you, but it is not comparable to making sure someone is fully informed about all of the consequences/repercussions of circumcision while they are in the decision-making process.

Just as giving a pregnant mom a book about breastfeeding/how to get through the difficult times/etc is totally different from tongue-lashing a mom who is feeding her 4 month old formula.

I have a good friend who has three sons. Her first two are circumcised. When she was pregnant with her third (right after I'd had my first son), she asked if we'd circumcised ds. I told her 'no'. We talked about it a bit, and I asked if I could send her some information about circumcision.

She said that was fine, and I sent the information. She and her husband left their third son intact.

She really, really wishes SOMEONE had given her that information before she'd had her first two sons.

[Arduinna]

There are definately non observant jews that do still feel compelled to circ their sons, so I don't think your question is surprising or out of line. I personally know quite a few that feel that it's more important than any other thing they can do, and it does seem to be the last jewish thing that people let go of observant wise. Again, at least in the community that I grew up in. Not arguing the logic of their view though.

[Frankly Speaking]

Grahamsmom:

I don't understand your thinking here. You seem very insistent on personal choices but you also seem to advocate taking those choices away from some. You are advocating taking the most personal and private part of a man and then letting someone else have their choice with it and denying the choice of the person who actually owns it. Once you have arbitrarily turned that choice over to a non-owner, you tell everybody to just butt-out, that this taking over the personal choice of another person's body is none of their business. None of that seems very logical.

Of course, it's not your genitals or your daughter's genitals that are being turned over to someone else. I'm sure you would fight that voiciferously. But, you will easily and sublimely authorize the same thing to be done to a man.

Men have rights to their complete-as-born bodies and no one has the right to go chopping off parts as they wish. However, our society in collusion with the medical profession has usurped those rights and have turned them over to persons who will not have to live with the long term effects and it is done when the man is at his most vulnerable and least able to resist.

Just a couple of days ago, I read a story that may make the issue a little clearer to you. It just depends on how deep your denial runs.

It was written by a father who has a son that he intends to circumcise. At this point, I'm sure you are saying "OK." However, let me get a little deeper into the story. The son is 17 years old and will be 18 in just a couple of days. The father has told the son he wants to get him circumcised and the son has vehemently refused to even consider getting it done. The father has set an appointment with a surgeon for the day before the son's 18th birthday because that is the last day he can legally have him circumcised against his will. He has found a doctor that will ignore the son's wishes and will do it knowing that the son has no intent on being circumcised. The son will not know what is going to happen until it is all over and done with.

Now, is that right? Whose choice is it then? Is this ethical? Of course not and I'm sure you would condemn this action as you should. This is a clear violation of the young man and the parent should just "mind his own business." But, what if the young man were 14 years old? Or 8 years old and was fighting it with all he had? What if he was 5 years old? When does it become OK? The truth is the reason it is done at birth is because the young man can not speak up for himself and since he won't remember ever having all of his body as born, it is assumed there will be on rammifications. Times are a changing though.

Just as you found this discussion, many men are finding these discussions and they are upset that their choice was stolen from them. How do you blythely pass off the theft of his choice and the theft of his genital parts and the destruction of his sexuality? Do you tell him it is none of his business and that it wasn't his choice? I am one of those men. Go ahead and try to convince me that it was none of my business that someone took liberties with my most private and personal parts. That they took my rights and my body away from me with little justification other that "It's our choice." Convince me that I have no right to speak up for my fellow man who is about to be violated in a most personal and private way the same way I was. I'm waiting but I'm not holding my breath.





Frank

[Acksiom]

Originally Posted by Free Thinker

I'm going to be the voice of dessent here It's their decision! If I were you, I would wait to bring up anything unless they find out it is a boy. If it is, then I would only ask your friend to do a bit of research, and explain that most of Europe doesn't circ. nowdays b/c it is unnec. proceedure. I would *not* use the word "mutilate" or anything similar. If it is her DHs belief, then it should be respected. I am an atheist, so I'm not biased here or anything

Well, not biased as far as faith goes. But what about gender?

Would your response be the same if it were a little girl at risk?

Would you still assert that it's "their decision"?

If that were either parent's belief, would you still assert that it should be respected?

[Acksiom]

Originally Posted by grahamsmom98

Well, personally, it really isn't any of your business! What choices people make for their children are just that, THEIR choices.

Does that include choices regarding routine and ritual female genital amputation?

Originally Posted by grahamsmom98

You say "...of course, I plan to somehow give her relevant information about circumcision". Why?

Well, for one thing, the permanent amputation of healthy, functional, and non-pathogenic erogenous tissue from a non-consenting subject, without direct medical necessity, is fundamentally a serious human rights abuse. And whether the subject is a minor child or an adult really doesn't change that.

For another thing, many parents don't have the slightest idea what the practice really involves and what the consequences are, and are horrified when they find out. And when that happens after they have already become complicit in the harms done to their child, they sometimes have terrible feelings of guilt and remorse.

Trying to prevent this is -- by my standards, and those of others, at least -- most certainly an act of genuine friendship and compassion.

Originally Posted by grahamsmom98

If this is a subject you have spoken of in the past with these people, they already know of your feelings.

I know how I would and HAVE reacted at un-asked-for "advice" from "well-meaning" friends. It doesn't concern you!

I know we had (emphasis on the past tense of had) a friend over for lunch shortly after ds was born. Her kids are both grown and were on their own. She was in her 60's.

Immediately, upon finding out we had had our ds circumcised (she watch as I changed a diaper), commented how cruel we were to have mutilated our son. That someday he would realize what we'd done and hate us for it. That even uneducated Europeans (she is German) are smart enough not to do subject their precious sons to this horrible procedure. Did we even know what was actually done to our son???

Needless to say, I asked her to leave. She never asked why we chose to do this, not that it was - or is - any of her business. We've not had her in our home since.

She chose to vaccinate her children, but we never said anything anti-vac to her. She had formula fed, had used day care, and drank lots of beer while pregnant. We never made a single comment on HER choices, as it was/is none of our business.

I'm sorry to hear that your former friend was so intransigent and insensitive about the issue. It seems obvious that she was very upset about it.

I often wish we human beings were just a little bit more motivated to respond to other people's upsets with support, instead of such things as defensiveness and rejection. Our world would be a much better place, for such a little change.

Originally Posted by grahamsmom98

Religious or not, this decision is the parents' decision, and you have NO business poking your nose into it.

But, again, what if they were planning to have something comparable done to their daughter?

Would you still assert that it was "the parents' decision" and that she has no business poking her nose into it?

Originally Posted by grahamsmom98

If you want to keep the friendship, I'd advise you to keep silent on the subject unless THEY bring it up and ASK for your opinion. After that, you're on your own. Until then, silence is golden.

Um, no. . .I'm afraid that's not actually the case here. Where routine and ritual child genital amputation is concerned, silence is more like fertilizer.

You see, routine and ritual child genital amputation is also a tool of behavioral control of parents by the community. By making parents complicit in the patent and obvious harm of their children, their resistance and obedience to the further dictates and directions of the community are both lessened and increased, respectively. And applying a conversational taboo to the subject further serves those ends. What people cannot talk about, they cannot question.

Silence about it is hardly 'golden'. If it's to be compared to a metal in particular, then iron -- in the form of fetters and chains -- would be far more appropriate.

[KermitMissesJim]

I would discuss it before the gender is discovered, and say "I have very strong feelings about circumcision. Here are some websites with information. Please take a look. There are websites that argue the other side as well. I hope you will make an informed decision."

And then, I would leave it alone.

[Mommiska]

Thanks for all of the suggestions. I do think I'd like to give whatever information I give before they know the gender of the baby - it makes sense that the issue can be discussed less passionately when it is only a hypothetical, since they might end up having a girl.

Perhaps I should have said what I'd thought about doing, along with my worries and then asked for comments - I'll try that now!

At around the 12 week mark, I wanted to send a 'Congrats on your pregnancy' gift. I'd planned to include a baby outfit (gender neutral), a pregnancy/baby book, and the Mothering article by Dr. Fleiss (I need to order several copies of that - I just found out yesterday that my brother and his wife are expecting also). I'd thought about also including a copy of an on-line article which address circumcision from a Catholic perspective (as that would carry more weight than other things with my friend).

The note I'd planned to include was something along the lines of what KermitMissesJim suggested.

However - if I do that, I feel as if I'm completely ignoring the fact that the dh is Jewish, even if he is non-observant. And I'm afraid that if he feels ignored/feels that his feelings/thoughts/faith are being ignored, that might make him less likely to take on board any of the other information.

Does that make sense? I guess I'm wondering if there is any way I can acknowledge the fact that he's Jewish and might feel that he wants to circumcise any sons he has for that reason. An article or something that might help him see things from a different perspective?

I GET that any sons he has will not be Jewish and therefore shouldn't be circumcised for religious reasons. The logic of that makes sense. But these kind of decision aren't always made on the basis of logic, you know?