How to approach Catholic friend and her Jewish husband re: circumcision? - Page 2

[DaryLLL]

Originally Posted by Mommiska

However - if I do that, I feel as if I'm completely ignoring the fact that the dh is Jewish, even if he is non-observant. And I'm afraid that if he feels ignored/feels that his feelings/thoughts/faith are being ignored, that might make him less likely to take on board any of the other information.

Does that make sense? I guess I'm wondering if there is any way I can acknowledge the fact that he's Jewish and might feel that he wants to circumcise any sons he has for that reason. An article or something that might help him see things from a different perspective?

I GET that any sons he has will not be Jewish and therefore shouldn't be circumcised for religious reasons. The logic of that makes sense. But these kind of decision aren't always made on the basis of logic, you know?

You are making the assumption that the dh will want a brit milah for a non-Jewish son of his? That is a big assumption.

First of all, the child is not being raised Jewish. The dad doesn't care! He has agreed to leave the religious indoctrination up to the mother. We can assume if there are more observant relatives in his family, he has dealt with them and their objections, if any, to his son being raised Catholic (if it should be a boy).

Next, if he has some vague idea a hospital circ on a one day old has the same religious ramifications as a bris, he is wrong and needs to brush up on Judaism 101.

http://www.jewfaq.org/birth.htm

partial quote:

In recent times, circumcision has become controversial. Some have hypothesized that infant circumcision has harmful psychological effects and may cause sexual dysfunction. Many websites have sprung up promoting this point of view, and even in Israel there are those who want to outlaw circumcision as child abuse.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no concrete, scientific evidence that circumcision has any harmful effect[sic]. The rate of complications from circumcision is one of the lowest of all surgical procedures, and the most common complication is simply excessive bleeding. At most, the latest scientific evidence indicates that the health benefits of circumcision are not as great as previously assumed, thus there is no reason to perform routine circumcisions for the purposes of hygiene. However, as stated above, Jewish circumcision is not performed for the purpose of hygiene.

From the traditional Jewish point of view, there is no controversy. The ritual of circumcision was commanded by our Creator, and He certainly knows what is and is not good for us. The G-d who commanded us not to harm ourselves certainly would not command us to do something harmful to ourselves, and even if He did, the observant Jew would nonetheless heed His wishes. [sic!]

I had a similar experience lately. 2 friends of ours had a baby. My dh and I are closer with the dad who is Pagan. The mom is a non-observant Jew. A few days before the birth, I found out from the dad they were planning to circ b/c some friend had told them poop gets under the foreskin and makes diaper changes inconvenient for the parents (and some vague thoughts that as the son was of Jewish heritage, maybe circing would be a good idea). I quick told the dad this was not true (foreskin non-retractable, so no poop can get under it, and the ritual of brit milah not being met by a hosp circ) and a couple other things against circing, and then emailed him the Mothering article. They were easily swayed with a little correct info that no-one had bothered to share with them before. My 12 yo ds was also in the room when we were discussing it and told the dad how he was glad to still be intact, of course! So at the final hour, I saved this poor child's foreskin. I did not worry about "stepping on toes." Pfff.

[mquester]

Here's an article you might want to print out and include for the father. I just stumbled upon it on the DAC website...

http://faculty.washington.edu/gcd/DOC/mposition.html

The gift w/ articles sounds like a good approach to start. I would follow up a week or two later after giving them time to discuss it. Good Luck!

-MQ

[RubyV]

Regarding Jewishness: Many reform Jews would indeed consider the child Jewish.

However, many reform Jews are choosing not to circumsize. Had DD been male, we would not have circ.

I'll try to find the links about jewishness, non circ, etc. I may still have them home.

[BelovedBird]

Originally Posted by RubyV

Regarding Jewishness: Many reform Jews would indeed consider the child Jewish.

I', about to be really honest:








Many jews call themselves "reform" because to them reform = non observant, or decide for myself observance. In truth the reform movement has a strict stance on "who is a jew".

http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm#Who
Whereas the "orthodox" or strictly torah abservant consider anyone born of a jewish mother to be jewish, reform judaism considers a child to be a jew if he or she is raised by a jewish parent (regardless which), who maintains a "jewish home".
According to the reform movement itself (CCAR) a child with a christian mother, being raised christian is either a nonjew or a "potential" jew. Never a jew.
http://www.ccarnet.org/cgi-bin/respd...le=3&year=5754
And from the UAHC:
http://uahc.org/ask/who_jew.shtml
And interestingly, the UAHC "teshuva" cites having a bris milah as one of the ways to "prove" that the child is being raised jewish.

[RubyV]

Oops, my bad Bird. YOur right.

Kinda touchy subject for us since FIL's rabbi tried to push us to have dd undergo conversion. Actually, I should start another thread on babies and conversion.

[Mommiska]

Thanks again, everyone.

Mquester - thanks for the link. I think it would definitely be something that would be good to include.

[candiland]

I will have to respectfully disagree that because the father is a non-observant Jew, he isn't concerned about the "Jewish-ness" of circumcision.

I've known quite a few men who were Jewish, didn't practice Judaism, yet said they would circ. because they are Jewish.

[applejuice]

My advice - give them your two cents worth and leave it at that. The baby is theirs to care for as they see fit.

I agree Candiland; that is my experience.

My DH was Jewish. Male members of his family came out of the woodwork all over to tell me how awful it would be for my sons if I did NOT circumcise them. These men never went to synagogue, ate pork, shellfish, put up Christmas trees, and were telling me how important circumcision was. They were well meaning, but if you are going to be Jewish, don't the everyday things that you decide to do mean more than something you do not decide for yourself.

AFAIK, the only religious consequence of not circumcising would be that the Rabbi would refuse to give the boy a name, which is also done at the bris.

[green betty]

Here's an article you might consider including in order to be considerate of the father's religion and heritage:
http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/index...e/010515b.html

It's the narrative of a Jewish family who chose NOT to circumsize--something I've heard is becoming more common in the reform tradition.

[BelovedBird]

Originally Posted by uuelisabeth

Here's an article you might consider including in order to be considerate of the father's religion and heritage:
http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/index...e/010515b.html

It's the narrative of a Jewish family who chose NOT to circumsize--something I've heard is becoming more common in the reform tradition.

I'd be interested to see the sources that he quotes there in their original form.... mabey I'll do that.

He is grossly misinformed as to the reason why women do not have milah.

Women are inately more spiritual, ETC. That is the same reason men have a commandment to pray with a quorum and men do not. Women's prayers "go up" easier as they are naturally more connected. Men need the physical reminders to be connected.
I don't feel like elaborating but the author of that piece just doesn't know torah and doesn't know what he is talking about in relation to that.

Non jewish boys should not be circed.
The boy refered to in the OP is not jewish.

Some of the more detailed bris technical discussion and discussion of organisations of jews against milah was done here:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...highlight=bris

[Mommiska]

I just checked back - I've been thinking about this thread a bit over the past few days.

I really appreciate the input of the Jewish members of this board. I think, however, that your response (that a non-Jewish child should not be circed) is perhaps similar to my response when someone who has no intention of ever coming to church again wants to have their child baptised - that they shouldn't do it.

It makes me sad when people want to have their child baptised just as an excuse for a baptismal party, or because they were baptised, or because their parents are Christians and want the child baptised, etc. It seems to make a mockery of the seriousness with which I took my vows when my children were baptised and I promised to raise them within the Christian faith.

There is no religious reason for someone who is not a Christian to have their child baptised - yet it happens all the time. Because it is the 'done' thing. Because it feels like a bit of extra 'insurance' with God. Because the parents were baptised as children, so they want their child baptised. Because they all want to have a good party.

I'm guessing (as others have pointed out) that this happens to Jewish parents who are married to non-Jewish partners as well. And this is why I don't want to ignore the Dad's feelings about being Jewish and circumcised. It's a hard one...

[merpk]

It may be a hard one, but it is also an easy one.

Just like a man may have feelings about having his son look like him (which is rightly criticized here as an absurd reason to circumcise) and just as a man may have feelings about wanting to please his family because his father/uncles were circumcised (which is also an absurd reason) you're talking about a man who is having feelings about having his son circumcised because the father is Jewish.

The father is circumcised (nonJewish) and wants his son (nonJewish) to look like him, and that's absurd, right?

So now the father is circumcised (Jewish) and wants his son (nonJewish) to look like him, and that's not absurd?



I'm confused, because you seem to be dismissing the Jewish don't-do-it input simply on the basis of our saying don't do it. Which doesn't make sense.

There's no reason for the father to do it. And I guess you're concerned about stepping on his toes because of his Jewishness. It seems simple to me. Make it clear to him that the child isn't Jewish, and not by *any* Jewish standards. He doesn't insist his children be raised Jewishly. They agreed to raise the children Catholic. That's in the OP. So if he wants to circumcise his child, it has nothing to do with anything Jewish.

If his family might pressure him, then you might want to give him information about reasons not to circumcise and help get his "intestinal fortitude" up. Give him some links.



Anyway, just wanted to say that I am not 'getting' the dismissal.