Why are Christian parents afraid of Pagan influences? - Page 5

[green betty]

I just read this whole thread, and it seems to me that what is missing from the discussion is a tacit acknowlegement of the fact that Christianity is the dominant religion in our culture. It's not just a personal matter. Christianity is taken to be the standard, the norm, and those of us who are not Christian frequently feel like we have to struggle for recognition and acceptance, rather than take it for granted. It was Christian kids on the playground who told me I was going to hell, it was Christian teachers who sat back and let that happen, and a Christian society that said "oh, well, that might not be the best thing to say but you better get used to it..." Can you imagine the difference if a kid of Muslim fundamentalist parents went around the playground informing Christian kids of their infidel fate?
So to me, hearing a Christian say something like, "well gee, I don't teach my kids to scorn pagans and I don't think it's the right thing for those other Christians to do" isn't too impressive--no more than a white mother saying "gee, I don't teach overt racism to my children and don't think others should, either." I think that being a member of a dominant, oppressive culture gives you a special responsibility to be sensitive to and try to change that culture. Where is your outrage that people who affiliate with your identity treat others in such an "unchristian" way?

[tricia80]

Wow this thread is definately interesting.. i jus read the whole thing in under 10 mins.. i couldnt stop reading ppl's viewpoints...

i was raised roman catholic in an italian family... i questioned the bible and church starting at a young age.. i had big issues with catholicism saying girls are lower than men, girls cant be altar servers, etc etc etc... so i started seeking out many religions and gathering info.. at about 15 i found paganism... i have always felt a close relationship to the earth and animals and never believed that GOD was jus a man... and he created the world in 7 days...

ok now im rambling... my mom was given the choice as her mom did not instill any religious stuff into her... she finally decided on Catholicism.. when i told her i wasnt going to baptize dd into Catholicism when i was pg and she would get to make her own choice but i would instill Pagan beliefs she told me and i quote "I will pray for your souls".... i did not feel the love that supposdely Jesus had taught my mom at that point... and when dd was a baby she would say she was gonna baptize her behind my back etc so she doesnt go to hell...

i will let dd decide who she wishes to worship... i have no issues with her watching Brother Bear or Harry Potter or anything... shes a bit old for veggie tales i think.. i dont have it on any of our channels.. then again we have basic cable...

im still learning about Paganism and consider myself new to this path... i have no other person to associate with so I learn on my own... dd is 5 so i dont think she will have a grasp on religion yet.. altho she does love to watch Touched By an Angel and i dont see any harm.. fundamentally it teaches love and respect... she does tell her friends though that the Goddess is in the Moon and God is in the Sun.. so she does know some Pagan/Wiccan beliefs... but doesnt quite understand them...

ok now im rambling and dont even know if i made any sense... so carry on.. dont mind me... the gas leak in my home today has killed a few brain cells... :LOL

[tricia80]

Ok can someone direct me to the brother bear thread... ??? im a little lost...

and im confused about christianity... doesnt Jesus and God tell you to love ur brother and yet some christians are hurting other ppl by telling them they are going to hell etc

and im still tryin to figure out the whole seperation from church and state stuff when on american money it states "In God we Trust" that drove me nuts when i lived in AZ..

ok officially done rambling..

[barbara]

Originally Posted by Natalya

Has anyone read C.S.Lewis' (a Christian, but not a very conservative one)The Abolition of Man?

He addresses alot of what we've been discussing... (different ways to the truth). He theorizes that there is evidence all around us that we know "the truth". He says that it is neither intelligent nor fair to dismiss anyones beliefs becuase they are not labeled the same as yours. HOWEVER, he also believes that there is one single truth. That all these religions/moral standards are reflections and expressions of that truth... there is much more to his book, but this is the part I felt was appropriate to share.

Excellent book! C.S.Lewis has so much food for thought in his writings, I just adore him! I belive that many fundementalist Christians today simply have not read his works, and to their loss. It is possible that they simply wouldn't understand it anyway. (...sorry, I'm bad!)

[BusyMommy]

Wow, this is fascinating. And how germane...we borrowed Brother Bear from the library this week and ds has watched it everyday (1 movie/day) and we love it. I never once, in a million years, would have even considered it as a disturbing movie from a Christian perspective.

I attended Catholic schools from K-12 and I love that they taught us to respect every religion that people celebrate. I certainly don't think my church has the definition of God locked away and I love learning and exploring other beliefs. ANd, like NM, we live near the Native Ak culture and I think it's beautiful and appropriate. How dare we judge.
But, ah, another topic.

Anyways, had to comment:

All it takes is a few hallucingenic experiences to realize the fallacy of trying to label and dissect the intent of the Universe and everyone in it!

Edited to add:

Has anyone read C.S.Lewis' (a Christian, but not a very conservative one)The Abolition of Man

Off now to request this.

[Natalya]

Originally Posted by uuelisabeth

I just read this whole thread, and it seems to me that what is missing from the discussion is a tacit acknowlegement of the fact that Christianity is the dominant religion in our culture. It's not just a personal matter. Christianity is taken to be the standard, the norm, and those of us who are not Christian frequently feel like we have to struggle for recognition and acceptance, rather than take it for granted. It was Christian kids on the playground who told me I was going to hell, it was Christian teachers who sat back and let that happen, and a Christian society that said "oh, well, that might not be the best thing to say but you better get used to it..." Can you imagine the difference if a kid of Muslim fundamentalist parents went around the playground informing Christian kids of their infidel fate?
So to me, hearing a Christian say something like, "well gee, I don't teach my kids to scorn pagans and I don't think it's the right thing for those other Christians to do" isn't too impressive--no more than a white mother saying "gee, I don't teach overt racism to my children and don't think others should, either." I think that being a member of a dominant, oppressive culture gives you a special responsibility to be sensitive to and try to change that culture. Where is your outrage that people who affiliate with your identity treat others in such an "unchristian" way?

I have to disagree with you. Though I have no doubt Christian churches are the most widely attended, we DO NOT live in a society that practices Christian beliefs. Are we all a bunch of hypocrites? No, but a lot of us are. Are we all severely imperfect? YES! My outrage is not here. I feel sadness that humans mistreat each other in the name of my savior Jesus Christ. I have no right to judge what anyone else does, that is the Creator's thing, and that is how I will teach my boy to treat others. Without judgment, only love.

I am sorry those people treated you so awful. They were so, so wrong to say those things to you.

"I think that being a member of a dominant, oppressive culture gives you a special responsibility to be sensitive to and try to change that culture."

I think you are right (well not about the dominant oppressive culture thing) because Christians are so prevelant and so often misrepresented
it is our duty to teach our children (and to try our best ourselves) to follow Jesus' example. That includes refraining from the judgmental/fear ridden crap.

With love,

[Charles Baudelaire]

Ya know, at the risk of getting everyone's panties in a knot here, all I wish is that Christians would ACTUALLY FOLLOW JESUS' EXAMPLE.

This is a response that came off of the Hot Sauce thread which, if you haven't read it, is about the many fundie Christians out there, including the illustrious Lisa Whelchel, late of "Facts of Life," who, in the same breath as advocating her fundie Christianity, bragged (!!!) about how she disciplines her child by putting a clothespin on his tongue when he speaks out of turn, or,when she's feeling in a particularly zippy mood, puts Tabasco sauce on it instead.

Somehow, I just don't see Jesus as being a hot sauce kind of guy.

To return more to the topic at hand, I can't understand why some Christians are concerned about "pagan" influences either. I can understand restricting their exposure to violence (because if you're Christian, you probably believe in turning the other cheek, not kicking the other a$$); I can understand restricting their exposure to anything Satanic (because Satan is the embodiment of all evil...and no, he's NOT Christian Aguilera, tempting as that may be to believe); and I can understand restricting exposure to anything that denigrates their religion. However, I fail to see how "Brother Bear" or "Harry Potter" falls into those categories.

[DaryLLL]

Originally Posted by PoppyMama

It seems unchristian and just plain sick to me that the anniversary of everyone elses children but the "chosen people" dying is a time to celebrate. I don't want them to have an intolerant/unloving view of others. Isn't that what Jesus was all about -love and forgiveness for everyone? Brother Bear strikes me as being more christian than say-The Prince of Egypt. I let my children watch the bible stories- I just don't encourage it.

Poppymama,

You might be interested in gnosticism then. It is a form of Xtianity prevelant in the first centrueis CE, before the Roman Govt made it illegal. It has survived anyway for 2 millemnia, mostly underground.

Early gnostics such as Marcion and Valentinus also rejected Tanakh (the Jewish Bible) as not describing the same god as the one Jesus was made to talk about. The Father is the Ineffable God. YHWH, the creator, well, they called him Ialdabaoth, the blind one. A lesser god. The gnostics also have a goddess, Sophia.

http://www.gnosis.org/welcome.html

[DaryLLL]

Originally Posted by Natalya

I have to disagree with you. Though I have no doubt Christian churches are the most widely attended, we DO NOT live in a society that practices Christian beliefs.

Define Xtian beliefs. Have you read the pastorals lately? They were written to keep an oppressive "catholic" Xtianity going when it was obvious Jesus was not coming soon.

for ex, 2 Peter, an anti-"heretic" tract:

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables,[gnostic scripture] when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. [This is a lie. 2 Peter was not written by Peter. Nor were any of the gospels written by eye-witnesses.]

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. [Don't think for yourself. Only the catholic bishops may interpret the will and word of God.]

2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. [Reflective of those darn people thinking for themselves. "Denying the Lord" is a value judgement, not the truth.]

2Pe 2:22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, the dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.

And more anti-gnosticism from Jude:

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. [Another value judgement.]

Jud 1:5 I will therefore remind you, though ye once knew this, how the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that did not believe.

Jud 1:8 Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise authority [the bishops], and speak evil of the glorious ones. [These "glorious ones" the gnostics will have thought of as henchmen of Ialdabaoth, the Archons.]


Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil disputing over the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. [Oddly, the author, while condeming "heresies," refers to a non-canonical text here.]

Jud 1:12 These [gnostics] are blemishes in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds without water, carried about by winds; trees whose fruit withers, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots...

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints...[Again refers to a later condemned text, the Book of Enoch.]

Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference,
Jud 1:23 but others save with fear, snatching [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. [Do not even touch the clothing of the "heretic."]

So, after much quotation, I will assert, the early catholic church tried to make the teachings of Jesus monolithic, with one interpretation by the bishops. People were expected to hold to this GroupMind belief, not think for themselves and condemn [even persecute] other Xtians who interpreted the teachings of Jesus differently. It helped that the mass of believers were illiterate and could not read any of the Hebrew or Greek scripture anyway.

Again referring to your assertion above, I will agree. To an extent, despite professing to be a country composed of 85% Xtians, our culture does not hold to most teachings written as the words of Jesus. Early Xtians (not called Xtians then, but followers of the Way, or Nazoreans), as shown in Acts, were communists. Not capitalists.

The rulers of our country, not elected, but brought in by power and money, are wildly selfish capitalists. We no longer live in a democracy, much less in community. We can change this by being aware of the motives of Bush and his elite corps of the super-wealthy. I recommend, Dude, Where's My Country, for more on the shady and illegal practices of this group.

[Sean]

Thanks, Darylll. Those verses you quoted do mean pretty much what you say they mean, condemning gnosticism as falsehood. If your point is that the Bible instructs believers to avoid believing heresies (including the gnostic heresies), you are absolutely correct. If you cared to, you could have cited such passages from almost every book in the New Testament, not just those two. According to the Bible, some interpretations of Christian teachings are true, and other interpretations are false. Christians are exhorted to believe the true ones; also to belong to one Church. The word 'catholic' is not in the Bible, of course. (It wasn't called the Catholic Church until the second century A.D.) But yes, the Church is "the pillar and ground of truth" (1 Timothy 3:15).

But aside from your correct exigesis, some of your parenthetical comments were a bit peremptory, especially your repeated equation of "thinking for yourself" with holding heretical beliefs, as though one who thinks for herself would never arrive at an orthodox belief. And I daresay the electioneering part probably should have been saved for a different forum altogether.

So, did you like "Brother Bear," or what?

[Meiri]

I have to disagree with you. Though I have no doubt Christian churches are the most widely attended, we DO NOT live in a society that practices Christian beliefs.

How so?

Sunday is the nearly universal "day of rest". Time was stores were fined for daring to be opened. Some of those laws are still on the books in places, though not enforced. Liquor sales are still restricted on Sunday too. That's not a Pagan influence!:LOL

Marriage as practiced, as the laws are currently written, as some are attempting to insert into the Constitution, follow the Christian religion model. According to a rabbi I know online, nothing in Judaism forbids polygamy. They simply choose to follow the prevailing model. Islam allows for polygamy, but not in this country. If a guy with more than one wife immigrates to here, only one wife is allowed. To put it bluntly, the others are screwed.

Look at the news stories. All the underlying assumptions about what is right or wrong or moral come from Christianity. If a Pagan commits a crime, their religion becomes part of the story no matter how irrelevent to crime it may be. If a Christian commits a crime, nary a mention unless the crime was at the church or during a church ritual.

And so it goes.

This country is so entrenched in the Christian paradigm that one can hardly have a discussion of other religions without them being compared and contrasted to Christianity, the default, instead of just being discussed on their own merits.

[AnnaReilly]

Meiri!

Our society may not follow the full ideals of Fundamentalist Christianity (thankfully, IMO) but to say that Christianity is not the dominant "standard" religion is preposterous.

[tricia80]

ITA Meiri...

trust me.. i jus kinda always wondered about the "In God We Trust" motto on american money... and then this big seperation from church and state but there is a xmas holiday for schools.. etc...

[Quindin]

Haven't read the other posts - but as a Christian family we have no problem with our kids watching cartoons like Brother Bear, hearing stories from norsk or greek mithology, legends from pagan cultures etc. They know what we believe in, and introducing them to other ways of thinking (as long as they don't go against our moral beliefs and are violent or sexually loaded) I believe enriches their view of the world and fellow men.

[alaskan mom]

I don't understand why christians would have a problem with any religion, they borrowed everything from other religions to make there own.

[Arduinna]

This country is so entrenched in the Christian paradigm that one can hardly have a discussion of other religions without them being compared and contrasted to Christianity, the default, instead of just being discussed on their own merits.


ITA with Meiri and it's influence is everywhere and influences so many things that most people don't even notice it. It effects so much more than religious discussions. It effects how people view others, their decisions, medical care ect ect ect.

[Melissa S]

I never read any of the replies but will respond to the OP.

I am a Christian parent and I also have a problem with others who are so protective. I used to be. When I first converted and with my first child. I was so intent on changing my old ways and as I tried to live my life according to the Bible I wanted to protect my child from exposure to avoid her making some of the huge and hurtful mistakes I made. However, I am more mature now and I am so excited to expand my children's horizons. I just do as you do and explain that this is what others believe, we don't. I think it is a disservice as christian parents to completely shelter our children. Instead we then contribute to their lack of understanding others and complete shock when they get out into the real world. Plus, at some point they will need to decide what religion if any they will follow for themselves. While I pray my children will chose Christ when they are older, I still want it to be an independant decision and not just following family tradition. I want to give them as much info as I can to make that decision instead of them. However, I do chose when and how they are exposed to pagan influences.

Melissa

[stafl]

I removed a couple posts to this thread due to inappropriate content. please review the Religious Studies forum guidelines:

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[DaryLLL]

Originally Posted by alaskan mom

I don't understand why christians would have a problem with any religion, they borrowed everything from other religions to make there own.

Shhh. We're not supposed to notice that.

[DaryLLL]

Originally Posted by polihaupt

Haven't read the other posts - but as a Christian family we have no problem with our kids watching cartoons like Brother Bear, hearing stories from norsk or greek mithology, legends from pagan cultures etc. They know what we believe in, and introducing them to other ways of thinking (as long as they don't go against our moral beliefs and are violent or sexually loaded) I believe enriches their view of the world and fellow men.

So you don't expose them to the violent, sexually loaded, immoral, cruel, racist or sexist parts of the bible either then?

The parts that approve of polygamy, genocide, slavery, forced marriage, and the stoning of adultresses?