A day of rest ... - Page 3

[reverendmother]

Great Topic -- both the offical topic and the side bar

As to Sabbath Keeping -- In Chrisitanity Sunday is actually called "The Lord's Day". It is not so much a day of rest as it is a day set aside to worship the Lord. Over the centuries this has meant many things from a day where NOTHING secular could occur, to a day of reat, worship and family.

We have treid to keep strict Lord's Day in the past -- no TV, no shopping, etc. We have had to mellow this out a bit and look at it also as a day of celebration, which, for Chrisitians it is - a "mini Easter" so to speak. Worship is the MOST important thing and worship means in community - so going to church. It also involves fellowship, with church family, blood family so it is a day of visiting or having a Sunday dinner with company. We also relax. Since it is a "work day" for me dh does the cooking - even if we have a big company dinner! (I love that part) and we spend the day TOGETHER.

I wish that there was more reverence for the day - as has been describled. I love the attitude that is in the story of the "strawberries".

I think you all have inspired a sermon here -- and brought me back to a better discipline. True the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath, but we are all made for God and in our tradition we need to heed the name of the day -- The LORDS day.


T (hey where is that little guys smile???)
Let us all remember -- the first Chrisitians were considered a cult of Judism. All the first Chrsitians were Jews - including Jesus. Until the Temple was destroyed all Chrsitians (who were mainly Jews) observed Jewish law. Infact one of the great first debates in Chrsitianity was over allowing Gentiles IN to the faith and then -- did the men need to be circumsized!
The Messianic Jews I know are just like those early Jewish-Chrisitians before Paul -- no too open to we Gentiles.

[BelovedBird]

moondancer, we are in exile because moshiach (the messiah) did not come to return us to our land,yet. We have also not built the 3rd Beis hamikdash(holy temple) in Jerusalem.

I don't particularly find christians that adopt jewish rituals offensive, just a bit silly.

reverendmother -Believing that jesus is the messiah means that what the person practices is not judaism. Belief that jesus is christ makes someone christian. "messianic jews" generally use their "jewishness" to pull unsuspecting jews who do not know much about judaism into their "cult".
The original christians were Jewish, but christianity quickley became its own religion. If one believes that their religion is true and valid then they do not need to adopt the prctices of other religions. Many that do so, IMO have ulterior motives that I find offensive.

I have tried to make my points as nicely as I can figure out how to right now. I am not looking to offend.

-BelovedBird

[merpk]

... by Nursing Mother ...
BB, you're not offending at all, but I still wonder why there is no place for people of Jewish blood who are very Jewish, to believe in Jesus Christ and yet be able to still practice Jewish tradition. Being a Jew doesn't limit your belief's does it. (or does it just make you a cult if you believe in JC?) Aren't their many Jews who don't practise Judaism, that are still called Jews. So why does the belief In JC all of a sudden make you not-Jewish? Or am I misunderstanding.

Yes, being a Jew does limit your beliefs. You are limited to a One G-d, to the "second commandment" (of the "ten").

And yes, many so-called non-observant Jews in the world. They are Jews who for whatever reason don't observe. But they do not accept that a man died for their sins, or that a man was an aspect of G-d.

Sorry if that offends, I don't mean to. Just trying to make the point clear.

If a born-Jew "accepts Jesus" then they are not a practicing Jew because they are practicing a different religion with a different set of beliefs. They are technically still Jewish, but they are not following Judaism; they are following Christianity. Or more specifically put, perhaps, they are directly disobeying Jewish law, ie., the second commandment.

From what I gather the whole Torah is full of predictions of a Messiah that clearly point to Jesus Christ, or is that just what Christian people see and not people who practise Judaism?

No, the Torah is full of predictions of a Messiah. It does not clearly point to Jesus. That is what Christians see. It is mostly because of mistranslations of the original, or because they read the Torah through the lens of their belief in Jesus.

NM, the most obvious reason in the Jewish view that Jesus is not the Messiah ... or should I be getting into this? If this will make you mad, don't read on ... is that it never says the Messiah must return a second time to get it right. At least in the Jewish texts.

I second BelovedBird, I don't mean to offend. I just want to answer the question clearly.



- Amy

edited because ... ack!!! ... that peace smilie didn't come out right ...

[merpk]

Thanks for the reassurances, NM ...

And I don't mean anything about Jesus coming to earth and promising anything. I don't presume to know anything about him except that he probably put on tefillin (phylacteries) in the morning and ate kosher meat.

(Now that you've reassured me, I have to say again, I mean no offense. I think we're just walking on eggshells just a little ... and I don't see a walking-on-eggshells smilie ...)

And the Torah refers to, in the first place, the 5 "books of Moses" but in the second place, all of the writings that constitute the "old testament." And for many the word Torah also includes the Talmud, and it includes some learning I did this morning on the weekly portion ... but that's another discussion.

- Amy

[dandelion]

NM, may I ask: What exactly do you think Judaism *is*? From your posts, I get the impression that you think of Jews solely as an ethnic or racial group, and not as a religious community. On the contrary, what makes us Jews is not "Jewish blood" (again, the phrase makes me cringe). If it were, it would be impossible to convert to Judaism. Rather it is our faith in and willingness to join in an unbroken Covenant with God.

A Jew who declares that Jesus was God, or the Son of God, breaks the Covenant and leaves the Jewish people.

Your question (do Jews see the Torah as full of predictions about Jesus?) just strikes me as bizarre. Of course not. If we did, we would be Christians, wouldn't we?

(Aside: In the Middle Ages it was generally assumed by most Christians that of *course* the Jews knew that Jesus was God, and that we rejected him anyway. That's what made us so evil and deserving of punishment. It never occured to them that we might actually *not believe* in Jesus's divinity.)

(A second aside: Another widespread belief in the Middle Ages was that the Jews had excised passages from the Torah that unambiguously pointed to the coming of Jesus. Many Jewish scholars were tortured and killed for their refusal to reveal the "hidden prophesies".)

[crazy_eights]

Interesting side topic going on here. I think what everyone is talking around, without saying overtly is that the Jewish prophets are full of predictions about what the messiah will do. Most are about an earthly ruler who will usher in an era of world peace and universal (meaning the entire world) recognition of G-d *during his lifetime*. There have been any number of people throughout the ages who were thought to *maybe* be leading to a messianic era - but they died without fulfilling these prophecies. So, everyone understood, nope, not the one. A noteable mention is Bar Kochba, a Jewish revolutionary who lived shortly after the time of Jesus. And no, no mention anywhere of a second coming. So, Jesus by virtue of his not fulfilling the prophecies of ushering in a messianic era along with his death defaults on a claim to being Messiah in traditional Jewish philosophy.

As far as Jews (meaning those who are born to a Jewish mother through matrilinial decent) who believe in Jesus, they are considered Jews who are practicing a different religion, much as a Jew who follows Islam or Budha is still considered a Jew. Just one who is following a different religion. But Jewish law considers them one who is making an error (sorry if this is offensive) and we wait for their return.

[BelovedBird]

NM- I truly do not want to offend, really. But you insist I haven't so I will go a little further. Jesus to us was not the messiah and he did not, in our view fulfill any prophesies relevant to the messiah.

One think I think I can say without offending:

He was not descended from the House of David. According to Jewish law, tribal identification comes from the father's side, being Jewish, from the mother's side.
According to Matthew 1, Joseph was descended from David (Although there are many contradictions between his genealogy there and that listed in Luke, however according to the same text, Joseph did not have sexual relations with Mary, therefore Jesus was not related to Joseph, and not a descendant of King David.

Three answers to this problem are given in classic Christian sources:

The genealogy is that of Mary - This is inadequate, since if he is claimed to be the Jewish messiah, and according to Jewish tradition he must be descended on his father's side, Mary's genealogy is irrelevant.

He was adopted by Joseph -According to Jewish law, adoption does not change the status of the child. If an Israelite is adopted by a Cohen, (A descendant of Aaron the High Priest), the child does not become a Cohen, likewise if a descendant of David, adopts someone who is not, he does not become of the tribe of Judah and a descendant of David.

It doesn't matter, he was a spiritual inheritor of King David - If it doesn't matter, why do Christian scriptures spend time establishing his genealogical pedigree? And if he is claimed to be the Jewish messiah, then according to Jewish tradition it does matter!

We covered the "virgin" thing awhile back too.

Anyway, and have a great Sabbath!

-BelovedBird

[DebraBaker]

At the risk of offending *everyone* here......treading where angels fear......

here goes.....

I think Jews think of Christians about the same way mainstream Christians view, say, Mormons.

To the Jewish perspective a Christian has veered off the orthodox (in the generic term) belief system of Judiasm.

Back nearly two millenium ago Christianity was an offshoot of Judiasm and originally Christians worshipped in synagogues along with non-Christ-believing Jews.

The orthodox Jews of the time looked at the early Christians like they were in a cult or something.

Just like more mainstream Christians look upon Mormons.

To the Mormon his theological view is the completion of Christianity.

To the Jew who believes in Jesus Jesus is the completion of thier faith.

To the regular Jew, he's in some sort of cult.

Now that offends nearly everyone but it helps me understand everyone.

Apologies ahead of time because I really like and admire everyone here and can see facets of each POV.

Debra Baker

[Bekka]

Actually, this is completely fascinating--I have really enjoyed this thread.

I am not offended by anything--everyone is trying so hard. I am Mormon.

Mormons actually believe that they are not an offshoot of Christianity at all, but a return to how the original early Christians (first "generation" after Christ) were practicing, in authority (priesthood) and design (apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, teachers and so fort in Eph. 4). This was revealed to Joseph Smith.

And so I wonder how a Messianic Jew perceives his faith as being different from a Jew and/or being different from a Christian. I.e., I believe that I am Christian because I believe in Christ, but I don't claim any "descendancy" in doctrine/church organization from any other Christian church (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, or other evangelical, etc.). It seems to me that when a hypothetical Jew accepts Christ as the Messiah, he/she becomes Christian for the same reason--because he/she believes in Christ. This person may align with any of several Christian churches.

I have heard that when a Jewish person accepts Christ (what I have heard is specifically through our lens, Mormon--Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), his/her family actually has a funeral for this person because he/she is dead to them. Maybe I'm remembering something else.

I have always been confused also as to wanting to retain traditions that seem (to me) limiting (no offense meant here), as to why the controversy described in the New Testament about circumcision (as an analogy for the law of the Old Testament/covenant).

We are instructed to observe a Sabbath. It revolves around a worship service, but we also do not shop or other service oriented activities, we limit some of our activities, etc. I really look forward to our Sabbath because dh rests from his work and we have time together. We do a lot of church work on that day, but when we keep the right spirit it just adds to the day.

[moondancer]

DB-- actually I think you explained it quite well for me at least. I was sitting here with my jaw open in amazement at the thought of Jews thinking of us as a "cult". Wow. It really hit me. And then you explained about the mormons and then it made sense.

But back to the Sabbath discussion. I tend to follow God's lead when He says on the seventh day he rested....

"By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so he rested from all his work. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done." Genesis 2:2-3

I find nothing in the NT that tells us what we are to do with our Sabbath besides rest. Correct me if I am wrong here, but I looked in my concordance and it said nothing to me that on our Sabbath we are to join committees, run programs, segregate our children in "appropriate" age groups, send babies into nurseries separating them from their mamas, sit and listen to one person talk without benefit of open discussion, ie, dialog or exchange of ideas, etc etc etc.

I think the modern church has digressed FAR away from the original intent of gathering for fellowship, teaching, encouragement and prayer as brethren and believers. I for one would like to see a return to the simplicity of this 'homechurch' fellowship, breaking bread together, supporting one another in love, prayer, finances, and leave the big politics of religion out of it. Just my opinion.

Then our Sabbaths would be restful and not stressful. I can't tell you how many times as a child we drove to church angry and resentful b/c we were fussed at for being late, not wearing the 'proper' attire, our hair was messy etc. How many of US have had those mornings when we're all fighting on the way to church? Well, I am SURE I am not the only one on these boards that have had those Sunday mornings and we get to church in a tizzy. LOL. And Why? Becuase we are so stressed out with one more obligation b/c we surely don't want the pastor to notice that we are 'playing hooky' from church. sheesh. Am I seeing a collective smile out there while you read this and nod your head? Huh huh?

Yes, Sabbath is about worshipping God, but where two or more are gathered in His name.....

peace, moondancer who has been on those committees such as "Guest Services": and it was too much work to get folks to help out!

[moondancer]

:LOL I told ya so NM!! We would all be sourpusses in the back of the stationwagon....but then in church all I could think of was getting through the morning so I could buy my $.10 donut during fellowship time when the adults drank coffee and smoked their ciggies (Episcopalians).

Ugh, and the thought of Sunday School when I was in school all week. But of course my parents didn't talk about God all week so we had to have one day to learn about him.

My kids have God all week--not one day.:

but I fell in love with the painting of Jesus on our Sunday School room wall....you know the light brown long- haired one with the beard. My first hippie! He became my prototype of the kind of men I was attracted to. Now had he actually looked Middle Eastern with big Brown eyes and curly dark hair it would have been even better! Ooh lala!

Oh, but I digress......the Sabbath....I am personally trying to work out His most important commandment first in my heart. The other stuff gets in the way.

peace, moondancer who Jesus and you all too!

[simonsmama]

I celebrate the Sabbath on Sunday, and we don't shop, watch tv, get on the computer, read non religious books, use money, or do any chores or anything like that. We actually use it as a day to rest and to build up a spiritual bank if you will, to strengthen you for the rest of the week.

[umsami]

I don't think there is a concept of the Sabbath in Islam per se... and to be honest, I miss it. Yeah, in most Muslim countries, Friday is part of the weekend... so people have it off. But other than going to Friday prayers, I don't think there are any special rituals--although it is advised to take a bath/shower before going to prayers. One person told me that the reason we don't have a Sabbath in Islam is because of the notion of God needing rest (from the Genesis story) is against the nature of God... but for me, even though it says God rested on the 7th day it doesn't necessarily mean that God *needed* the rest...KWIM?

Back when I was a Christian, I had a book called "Keeping the Sabbath Wholly" (?I think it was called this..) Anyway, it had a bunch of ideas on how to make one's Sabbath special. A friend in Grad school who was a 7th Day Adventist always impressed me as she truly honored the Sabbath. She didn't study or do work on Saturdays... and often tried to spend it in reflection on Scriptures or by being in nature.

If I'm wrong about the Sabbath in Islam, please let me know

[chfriend]

I know that this is a resurrected thread with a long old debate in it....which I'm paying no attention to.

Just wanted to say thank you to merpk for that beautiful, poetic description of the joy of the Sabbath. It's truly inspirational.

[NotQuiteJuneCleaver]

Wow...I really found this thread fascinating! Amazing even. And very impressed with how each of you represented your beliefs without strife.

Being raised nothing, marrying a lapsed Catholic we have at times been influenced by many different religions.

To finally at 46, grasp a personal belief is astounding. And freeing. And causes so much emotion...the light came on!!

I hope merpk and BelovedBird, you wont mind me quoting you in real life! You wrote it all so precisely...what I feel. What I believe. I cannot thank you enough for the time you took to answer and re-answer!

I began a very long, hard journey over a year ago, and while I may die a righteous gentile, to hold onto truth until that day is a comfort. Yeah, this is the same old NotQuiteJuneCleaver who bristled, and scratched and was a thorn to many. People change. Even old people like me

[BelovedBird]

Originally Posted by NotQuiteJuneCleaver

Wow...I really found this thread fascinating! Amazing even. And very impressed with how each of you represented your beliefs without strife.

Being raised nothing, marrying a lapsed Catholic we have at times been influenced by many different religions.

To finally at 46, grasp a personal belief is astounding. And freeing. And causes so much emotion...the light came on!!

I hope merpk and BelovedBird, you wont mind me quoting you in real life! You wrote it all so precisely...what I feel. What I believe. I cannot thank you enough for the time you took to answer and re-answer!

I began a very long, hard journey over a year ago, and while I may die a righteous gentile, to hold onto truth until that day is a comfort. Yeah, this is the same old NotQuiteJuneCleaver who bristled, and scratched and was a thorn to many. People change. Even old people like me

Thank you. And the best of everything to you! If you have any further qs or whatever, be in touch.