Converting an Ezzo mom - sad about the violent language, though

[JuniperJoy]

My SIL, my youngest brother's wife is due in December, and as a "welcome baby" gift, I sent her The Pregnancy Book, The Birth Book and The Baby Book, all of which she loved. Unfortunately, one of her friends sent her Babywise, and she called me to talk to me about how different these books are.

Well, Sophia (my SIL) and Jessica (my SIL's friend) and I all ended up having lattes at Starbucks yesterday, and we started talking about Babywise versus AP.

Backstory: I just spent a year in Australia, where I witnessed some of the most horrific parenting I ever seen. In Australia, they have something called "Baby Boot Camp", paid for by the government, where you can drop your newborn-up-to-two-years old (Not kidding!) at the hospital and they will sleep train the baby for you - you pick them up at the end of the week.
They also SLAP infants - a good hard slap makes newborns go to sleep instantly. I personally saw this happen not once, not twice, but SIX times in 11 months. Can you imagine if CNN caught that happening in America? My MIL came to visit, and she saw it, and burst into tears in the park. Australians are incredibly cruel, but they taught me a lesson I used, with great success on my SIL and her friend.

When Jessica mentioned Babywise, I said:

"What makes me laugh about that book is how it makes a slave out of the parents, especially the mother. Babies are put into cribs immediately so they learn to sleep on nice flat, motionless surfaces, in dark queit rooms. As soon as your baby gets used to that, it's the ONLY way they'll go to sleep.

I just refuse to be held captive by a little tyrant who needs the "perfect" environment to sleep in. I figure my babies slept for nine months in a very noisy, busy womb, and they can bloody well sleep in a noisy moving world, afterwards, too. I always use a carrier and make my babies sleep on the go. I'm not going to be tied down in my house by some little general who thinks they are in control!

And I refuse to feed according to a schedule. Why should I spend my days watching a clock? My days belong to me, and baby can eat on the go, doing what I want to do. That's why breastfeeding is so much better. As if I am going to waste hours of my day warming up formula.

And I absolutely refuse to sit through nights with a screaming baby. Baby goes in the carrier and sleeps whenever. I don't care! Like I am going to waste my evenings watching for five minutes of this comforting and ten minutes of that soothing ...."

And blah, blah, blah ....

It's very sad that I had to phrase things in such an ugly violent manner, but I learned in Australia that a whole lot of parents see their babies as adversaries ... using adversarial, confrontational language is like speaking an Ezzo-mommies language.

Anyway, SIL called me today to say that Jess wanted to get a copy of the Sears book (her baby is 3 mos, by the way), since she definitely feels like she is trapped by this infant, and wants to develop a more flexible style. And she just loved, loved, loved Joy and June, who are just the exact opposite of what the Ezzo books predict.

Isn't that just the best advtisement of AP ever? Two little unspoiled, independent, respectful girls (or boys). The first years were so damn hard, but boy, can I convert people, now. Junie and Joy are walking, talking proof that AP works!

I know preachiness is frowned upon here, but I figure, what the hell. Maybe somebody is interested ....

Yay! Hooray!

[Elphaba]

That is an awesome approach! I love it! People are much more likely to come around if you make it all about THEM and not the baby! Sad, but true.
Brava!

[ShadowMom]

That's a really creative approach! I'm going to try to remember it next time I'm trying to convert someone, to talk in their language about it.

[NB Mom]

That is a very different approach to positive thinking
I lucked into AP. I had never ever heard of AP when I had my ds, I was never planning to have him sleep with me, but when I was in the hospital I just couldn't put him down! I had waited so long to hold him in my arms that I didn't want to let go, so ds selpt with me from day one.
I went to a book store when he was 2 mo to find a book to "help" me with parenting and, after flipping through a few a decided to buy the Sears AP book. Since then I have also bought the descipline book, the baby book, and the fussy baby book.
I am very proud of the way we are raising ds and dd, but I do hear a lot of unasked for negative parenting advise, like everyone else. This is something I am going to remember for the "next time"

[Peppamint]

Hey... whatever works, right? Sometimes I think we sugar coat it too much "whatever works for you, dear" does NOT always work!!

That's why when I meet someone who can't decide whether to FF or BF... I lay it on the line... if you possibly can, you really should and here's why. Instead of sweetly saying bf babies are healthier, I point out all the statistics that show FF babies are more likely to be sick, die etc etc

I actually think your examples make a lot of sense...

[Piglet68]

Sometimes you have to talk in "their language" to get them to understand. While I'm not quite so harsh, I have talked about cosleeping and BFing in terms of how easy it makes life, and how I'm not about to be tied down to schedules, blah blah blah...rather than get into the attachment theory and possibly put them off with too much "crunchiness".....so I think if you got thorugh to them, you needn't feel bad about the way you had to put it. Besides, once they get into the Sears' philosophy, they will change their way of viewing things, and you can use more "normal" language with them. You deserve congratulations for steering them away from that nonsense!



I do want to point out, however, that you made some rather mean blanket statements about Australians. To say "Australians are mean" is like saying all Americans are violent, war-mongering people. Don't forget that Ezzo and the Pearls come from a uniquely American form of fundamental Christianity that can make what the Aussie Boot Campers do pale in comparison. Also, Australia happens to have some of the most progressive birthing policies on the planet. Please don't dismiss all Australians, or their attitudes towards babies, based on a small minority of whackos. As a Canadian, I could certainly throw the same stones at you, but that would be ridiculous to paint everybody with the same brush.

[EFmom]

That slapping thing is unbelievable!

[townmouse]

Am I the only one who doesn't like this approach?

I've been an Ezzo-fighter for almost 2 years, and I've never found anything that upsets me more than Ezzo's teachings. I saw them played out in the fishbowl-like setting of a very small suburban church. It was Ezzo to the extreme, as 8 young couples encouraged each other and fed off each other, and my (AP) family was forced out of the church for trying to bring some balance. So I've seen babies being smacked for rooting, and held at arm's length, screaming, rather than being comforted when they were teething. I've heard mamas compare and compete, for who could get the child to sleep the most and eat the least. So I certainly do want people to reject Ezzoism.

But to meet them on their terms, babies-as-adversaries, 'this kid won't slow me down or change my life".....to me only reinforces a basic belief that will make their child's life hell. That belief is, that a child is not a person.

They have to learn to respect the child. Meet his needs because he is helpless. Put him first, because you are strong and he is weak.

So to me, I could not speak about children in this way. Even if I thought it would steer them away from Ezzo, I couldn't perpetuate the idea that rugrats and brats are lesser individuals than parents. I'd rather be the one voice they'd heard in their life, advocating for babies, even if it didn't change anything for them that day. Former Ezzoites have told me that the person who planted the seed of doubt in a kind way, was the person they went to when they began to question Ezzo's infinite wisdom.

(I'm on bedrest, with a headache, and 3 little ones running around, so this isn't as clear as I'd like it to be, sorry)

[Meiri]

Townmouse, if you were trying to teach someone about whatever, and that person only spoke Spanish, would you speak Spanish to them or English?

Sometimes when you really need to reach someone, you have to find them where They Are, and go from there. Otherwise they won't hear you or understand you, just as if you were speaking Greek to their native Russian.

This approach isn't teaching that babies are adversaries. The reality is that parents indoctrinated into the Ezzo mindset already think that. Speaking otherwise may well be like spouting Spanish to a Russian. The words and concepts simply won't compute.

It stinks, I agree, but nothing is taught by speaking past someone.

And if my words don't change anything for that baby that day, or at least planted a seed the parents can comprehend and follow up on, how have I helped?

I used a similar approach on one of the boards I visit when a mom was asking about Ezzo. I pointed out how tied down you are if you have to maintain a scedule for the baby. Who's in charge if everything has to be done to maintain the baby schedule? how is that "family centered" instead of "baby centered"?

[Piglet68]

I totally understand where you are coming from, townmouse, but have to agree with what Meiri said. There's no point if you are going to turn them off immediately.

And who was it who said "AP is a slippery slope"...SO true.

The very first time I visited an AP website I thought "wow, this is not for me, these people are too crunchy, too fringe, too 'out there' for me to relate"...but I kept going back and slowly....well here I am cloth diapering, we buy organic eggs dairy and meat, try to shop at local markets, etc...I bought cloth pads for myself, DD loves soy shakes...and we're still nursing at 2 years of age, while I'm PG.

Getting them to take a look is often all that's needed. They will come around eventually.

[mamaduck]

I hesitated posting to this thread initially because I didn't want to be the 1st person to say that I am uncomfortable with this approach! I suppose its good that she is going to read and AP book... maybe this will get her started. But personally, I have not found it possible to practise AP without first developing a strong concept of what it means to be attached to my child on a fundamental level. I don't understand how a person could have a strong relationship with her child if she comes at parenting from an advisarial POV. In other words, its not really AP if its done with selfish motives. Its not a real relationship/attachment if its all about what's easiest for me.

That is simply unreal though about Baby Boot Camp, and slapping infants! Makes me cry just thinking about it. However, I know there must be some good AP parents in Australia too. I bet some of them are even members here! So I would hesitate to make a blanket statement about Australians being mean.

[Piglet68]

mamaduck, do you think though that after practicing some aspects of AP that the impression of "child as adversary" might soften based just on experience? i mean, if you decided that slinging and Bfing on demand were what you were going to do, you might end up connecting with other moms who are doing the same, and their language/POV might start to wear off. sometimes just being around people who think the same toxic way you do can prevent you from really seeing the other side. maybe if these women in the OP get on board with some of the AP stuff, it will be the start of a positive journey.

or maybe i'm just too much of an optimist!

[Sierra]

Good job advertising AP JuniperJoy ! While I, like townmouse, would much rather be the single voice advocating from language that speaks to the beauty of what AP is about, I also have at times felt it more urgent to speak someone's language. And as Piglet said, AP can be a slippery slope that opens this person up to a whole new way of seeing things . To me, that is good news. Oh, and btw: I was horrified to read about "baby boot camp" and the other horror stories on here...babies being slapped for having the rooting reflex -- that is abuse!

Here is something I do worry about. When people get into AP because they like how someone's kids are...in other words, when they see a set of "very good" kids and decide that it must be the way the parents are that makes the kids this way, are they set up for problems later? I personally really enjoy the Sears books because I like how he states things in a language everyone can understand (thus making preaching "the good news" a little easier). However, I have also heard numerous people over the years say that Sears sounds like he is saying, "If you do this...your baby act like..." What does this perception mean for the parent who gets a baby whose personality, temperment, or whatever doesn't conform to the "expected results" (or when the parents are still poor parents, even if they do things AP style...which can certainly happen too). Lately I've heard a lot of people talk about times when AP has "failed them" or their kids.

To me it seems that there are so many personalities of children in this world that it would be silly to think about AP as something that produces immediate, visible results for all kids. Instead, I think AP does something that is healthy for parent and child that sets up a healthy framework of relationships for the child's life. It isn't about the end result, even though at times (for safety reasons, for example), the end result is critical too.

[mamaduck]

Originally Posted by Piglet68

mamaduck, do you think though that after practicing some aspects of AP that the impression of "child as adversary" might soften based just on experience? i mean, if you decided that slinging and Bfing on demand were what you were going to do, you might end up connecting with other moms who are doing the same, and their language/POV might start to wear off. sometimes just being around people who think the same toxic way you do can prevent you from really seeing the other side. maybe if these women in the OP get on board with some of the AP stuff, it will be the start of a positive journey.

or maybe i'm just too much of an optimist!

I have no idea. I have only my own feelings and experience, and I know that it wouldn't work for me. I can imagine this mother immersing herself just deeply enough into AP to reap some benefits for herself, and bagging the rest. Its one thing to sling, nurse, and cosleep out of laziness or whatever. Thats fine and it works. But then you get to a point when you have to look at discipline and maintaining that attachment -- and it becomes harder work. You simply can't be in it for yourself any longer. It seems to me that it would be better to appeal to what is best for the relationship rather than what is best for mom.

But maybe it will work! And I'll be more than happy to toss my reservations and eat my words!

[polka hop]

*

[frand]

JuniperJoy- I like that you got the Sears book into someone's hands who might not have come across it otherwise. Here's hoping that she'll have the same experience I had with it where slowly, day by day, both my husband and I found that whatever issue we encountered, the Sears solution was always the gentlest and most effective and that, as he likes to say, felt right. It's unfortunate that you had to sell it using language that plays on the baby as adversary mentality, but now you can offer her lots of support recognizing every time you see her being sensitive to her baby. I can't even put into words how the thought of a baby being slapped makes me feel.

[seven_lux]

Ummm...sorry I havn't quite read all the posts yet but I am pretty disturbed..

As an Australian in Australia....I say, WHAT THE?????
Are you freaking kidding.
May I just ask what state you were in?
I would sincerely like to investigate your claims.

I will eat crow if it is true, but I have an inkling you may have a few things twisted.

The "Baby Boot Camp" I know of is where desperate parents hanging by their last shreads of sanity can indeed go to sleep clinics where they can stay up to a week or more (AS A FAMILY), and they are given help to arrive at sleeping practices and routines that can work for them. They usually advocate the use of cots, but I have read of them accepting where co-sleeping obviously works for particular families, and they respect that. When you arrive at these clinics they counsel you and try to sort out whether these problems are percieved by the family itself or by outside influences. Such as like, everything may well be working okay, but they have outside pressure deciding (grandma, friends, doctors, etc.) that their methods are wrong because they are different.

"Australians are incredibly cruel, but they taught me a lesson I used, with great success on my SIL and her friend." -JuniperJoy

You know there's some americans who whip their babies with specially made baby whips, of that means that all Americans are incredibly cruel of course.

I'd also like to see your definition of "infant slapping" that we do to make them go to sleep. Do you realize how bizarre that sounds?

Off to read on...

[Sierra]

seven_lux, I was glad to read the others on here who questioned the comment about Australians, but I am also so glad that you as an Australian spoke up. Thanks for doing that! Oh, and also thanks for the info on the sleep clinic experience for families...that actually could be nice if you were at the end of your rope. But I do hope that not using the cot becomes more of a norm everywhere, including at sleep clinics.

Hearing about a "baby boot camp" had me practically shaking. It sounds awful! I hope those don't exist *anywhere,* but I actually don't think it would surprise me. JuniperJoy could indeed be describing something real. With the numbers of women I hear saying they are willing to leave 2 month old babies with grandma for a week so they can have some time away (and even vacation!), it didn't shock me entirely to hear of clinics that will take baby for a week to deal with sleep issues.

And this from someone who grew up in an AP family (before people really used the term "AP") and who was surrounded by natural families as a child...you'd think everything not AP would shock me by now.

Sierra

P.S. I still can't stop thinking about what townmouse said about babies being "smacked" for rooting-- now that just blows me away!

[townmouse]

Sierra, if I hadn't seen it, I never would have believed it possible .

Been away from the 'puter all day, but I've been thinking about this thread and I realized which part of my particular perspective I'm speaking from.

100% of the Ezzo parents I've known, were doing it for religious reasons. Ezzo's Prep for Parenting and Growing Kids Gods Way. They all chose to believe that GOD has set up this adversarial relationship, and that the children are to be controlled in these ways or else the children and the parents are all sinning.

So for me to appear to empathize with any part of it, is to insult my God. For me, personally as a Christian. It would be a lie and an insult. (not binding that viewpoint on any other Christian, its just how I've been viewing this Ezzo thing since I learned about it)

If I were not a Christian, or if I were dealing with Babywisers who had no inkling of Ezzo's religious basis for his teachings (and I know alot of people fit that category; they just want their kids to sleep thru the night)...then I could 'meet them where they are.' Because 'where they are' doesn't drag my God and my religion into their child abuse, KWIM?

Bottom line for me, if Juniper Joy can get anybody to step back and think about it in this method she's found, I'm behind it. One less baby being tormented. For me, I couldn't do it this way.

[seven_lux]

"I learned in Australia that a whole lot of parents see their babies as adversaries ... " -JuniperJoy

I'm saddened that you got to learn that lesson anywhere, that it's even a lesson to be learnt...
especially my country as you apparently have.
It's funny though because I learnt such a lesson here, at MDC through all of the stories about Ezzo and Babywise & Ferberizing Parents...& of course the parents who just dont care or who rule over their kids with violence.
I have never personally seen things to the extent you speak of here, and if you asked people in this country about AP, Ezzo Ferber and Babywise they would probably not know what it was.
Though we don't generally seem to attach names to our parenting styles here, I would put us on par with America in terms of parenting practices. CIO, early solids, spanking, circ'ing, formula feeding. We do tend to follow American trends. That goes for birthing and breastfeeding too.
Don't get me wrong, AP'ers are as 'on the fringe' here as they are in the states, but JuniperJoy's observations and perceptions of Australia are truly horrifying.
Let me know where they are, because by the sounds of it there are lots of people that need reporting to Child Protection. I'm outraged if it's true.

On a different note....i do see that you sometimes need to adjust to your target audience for effective communication, but i would never want to talk about my own parenting with such negativity.

ahhh...I'm just so saddened over this whole shebang....apart from where another baby might now be parented the way I believe in, because i do believe in "AP"... so theres a good thing I suppose