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Local Parents Arrested  

post #1 of 30
Thread Starter 
On the radio news this morning I heard about a local couple who were arrested for neglecting their 11-year-old son, who apparently will have to have 14 teeth and part of his jaw removed because he has such decayed teeth and an infection that has eaten away part of his jawbone, purportedly because they parents wouldn't make the boy get dental care. The boy was placed in a foster home, and DYFS is considering pursuing termination of the parental rights on the boy and his siblings. The radio report stated that the parents are advocates of the TCS philosophy of parenting, which they termed "bizarre." They defined TCS as "not making a child do anything." The parents declined to take the boy to the dentist even after DYFS became involved because of their parenting philosopy.

I have my own opinions about this whole scenario (I'm very opinionated!) but I'll refrain from stating them right now because I am curious as to what others think of this.

Wilma
post #2 of 30
Do you have a link to the story? If not, more details so I can google properly?

Thanks! Great topic (but sad story).
post #3 of 30
Sorry, I'm not sure what TCS stands for??
post #4 of 30
Taking Children Seriously.

www.takingchildrenseriously.com
post #5 of 30
Every philosophy, if taken to its extremes, falls apart. Sounds like that is what happned here.
post #6 of 30
I'm a little bit skeptical, myself. The whole point of TCS is that if you take a child seriously and respect them that they will do the same for you. A kid with such a serious dental problem would likely be in pain, and would probably have opted to go to the dentist long before it got that bad. They'd also be likely to hear their parents out and say "I'd rather do something unpleasant (i.e. go to the dentist) than end up in foster care." His parents may think that they're doing TCS, but to me it doesn't sound like they are.
post #7 of 30
Thread Starter 
The story was a very short (15-20 seconds?) blurb in the "And now locally" section of the news. The couple lives in Hamilton, Ohio. Their last name is Kelly. Other than that, I really know nothing. I looked at the Cincinnati paper online but didn't find anything about it. They just said that the family had refused to take the child to the dentist, claiming he didn't want to go, even after DYFS got involved. They have a few other kids, but I don't remember whether they mentioned how many.

Wilma
post #8 of 30
Here is an article about medical emergencies & TCS. Please read it before judging TCS:

Quote:
It's more coercive to die than to have a lifesaving injection.
http://www.takingchildrenseriously.c...e/view/94.html
post #9 of 30
I hate it when the media try to stick labels on things like that. When parents who beat their kids have them taken away, you don't hear the media saying "these parents were advocates of punishment-based discipline, where you strike your children in order to make them behave"....

And, of course, as mamawannabe points out, anything taken to the extreme is going to have problems. While I am not an adherent of the "TCS" philosophy, I hate to see them put in a negative light like this.
post #10 of 30
Thread Starter 
Piglet, I see what you're saying. I wonder how the media got ahold of the term TCS? Did the parents tell them that? Or did someone else label the parents as such?

Wilma
post #11 of 30
I'm pretty TCS in ideal. I also think that as parents of an 11 year old an agreement could have been reached with respectful discussion. There are some things that are not flexible, like buckling your seat belt. OTOH, arrest seems a bit extreme. I think I would have cooperated with DCFS though, because insisting he go to the dentist has to be less traumatic than being put into foster care.

And I hate that any "not norm" group gets put in bad light over one example.
post #12 of 30
i'm a tcs parent too and there's no way to know what's going on in this household, but if i had to hazard a guess, i'd say one or both of the parents might have deep fears about the dentist and may have either passed that along to the child or not made sufficient effort to convince the child that going to the dentist was imperative. but who knows. i certainly know that's not representative of tcs parenting, from all i've read and discussed of it with other tcs parents...

just goes to show you that it's possible to make huge parenting mistakes anywhere on the spectrum. poor kid.

eta: it's also possible that these parents are more than tcs -- they may be folks who have turned their backs on allopathic medicine, or they may just be so caught up in defending their beliefs that they have lost sight of what is truly important. it's also possible to take every belief to an unhealthy extreme...
post #13 of 30
Did they ever take him to the dentist and be turned away by the dentist?

That does happen, and still the parents are to blame.
post #14 of 30
Thread Starter 
This from the TCS website:

"Its most distinctive feature is the idea that it is both possible and desirable to bring up children entirely without doing things to them against their will, or making them do things against their will ..."

So let's assume for a moment that this family is not pathological, that they just really believe in this philosophy, and that they were not able to come to a common preference with their son. Then what?

Wlma
post #15 of 30
Did you read the article? Here's a sample:

Quote:
There is no automatic self-sacrifice default solution when it comes to solving problems with children. You can't simply help them with their most immediate preference: their most immediate preference may be wrong due to a lack of knowledge, and it may be extremely difficult to communicate the right knowledge to them effectively. This doesn't make coercing them right: but long-term medical disasters may well be more coercive anyway. Think about it. Make your best judgement. Keep any risks as low as possible.
The English is bad, but you get the idea.
post #16 of 30
Thread Starter 
Yes, I read it, and I've read it before. I don't think it's a good article, because to me they seem to be trying really hard not to come right out and say, "If you have to, force your kids to do it." And that contradicts the quote I posted. So what I am asking is, if parents really don't believe in coercing their kids to do anything, what do you do in a situation like the one I posted? DO you force them to anyway? And if so, what are the implications for that main idea of TCS?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just wonder. I live with a TCS family (4 families in one home).

I also wonder what people think are the alternatives to sending the kid to foster care.

Wilma
post #17 of 30
I'm just wondering how a kid with that much decay/infection could be without pain? Surely he must have at least complained to his parents about the pain. Surely they could have reasoned with him that seeing a doctor or dentist would solve that pain. I mean, he's 11 years old, not a baby....I don't see why they could not have reasoned with him.

I have to believe that this is some sort of extreme, or just bad parenting under a label. I can't imagine any parenting philosophy that would advocate declining medical treatment simply b/c a child doesn't want to go.

Besides, them not wanting to go is almost certainly a fear issue, no? I mean, it's not like the 11 year old is saying to his parents "Well, Mum and Dad, I searched all the dental journals on MedLine and don't believe that treatment for my infected tooth is necessarily the best option"...

in which case, any responsible parent would deal with the fear issue so they can then go get medical care.

right?
post #18 of 30
Wilma

It pretty much sounds like this situation is not the fault of TCS, that if TCS is practiced right and there aren't other issues involves, it would not come down to a choice between coercion or crucial medical care becuase 1) the child would understand the importance of the nec. medical care and agree to it or 2) the other issues (mental health problem of parents or child ) that are blocking understanding the importance of medical care would be dealt with.

I know you live with a TCS family and don't like the philosophy in practice, but I don't think this situation is a good example of the ultimate pitfalls of TCS. There may well be some, but in this stroy, there is more going on than TCS.
post #19 of 30
I'd wonder if the boy had something like Obsessive-Compulsive disorder or some other type of disordered thinking. In that case, he may be willing to live with the pain in order to avoid the dentist.

I do think that this would be a case where you would can the philosophy and get medical help for your child, at least for me.

L.
post #20 of 30
Thread Starter 
I didn't start this thread as an example of the ultimate pitfalls of TCS. I started it because I wanted to see how other people would handle a situation like this. So far, all I have gotten is basically, "With real TCS, this situation wouldn't have happened," which is an answer I'm not personally satisifed with. I'm feeling generous today, and I don't think that these people were necessarily bad parents. There have been examples for years of parents refusing medical care for their kids on the basis of strongly held religious beliefs, even in the face of losing custody of their kids or going to jail. I don't they were bad people either, just people who sincerely believed that they were doing the best they could (as they understood it) for their kids. I don't think it's accurate to say that a discipline theory, if correctly implemented, could have prevented this, because no theory or style of discipline can account for the infinite variations amongst people and families. I think it's very possible that these parents really feel that unless they can find a common preference, they shouldn't force their child to act, and that that stance is vital to their child's correct upbringing.

That said, I don't think this a discpline issue, anyway (and I know that TCSers don't really use the word discipline, anyway. I use it because I don't know a better word to use). I think that parents are adults who have the life experience to anticipate consequences to actions that children don't and that especially in the matters of health, parents have an obligation to attend to their child's healhcare, regardless of how the child feels about it. For that reason and also because I don't agree with the basic tenet of TCS, that it's even possible to never do something or coerce a child to do something against their will, TCS is a style of parenting I would never consider personally. I also don't have the disposition to have long, involved conversations to find common preferences for the minutiae of life with people (children) who don't *really* understand the whole issue.

The people I live with are good parents even though I don't agree with their theory of parenting. But I do think they do their kids a disservice by behaving as though every desire or preference of every person in the family is of equal importance at all times. I simply don't believe that, and I think they spend a great part of their day negotiating common preferences over things that aren't really important enough to spend all the time discussing. (JSYK, the family in question and I have talked about TCS philosophy extensively, and I'm not saying anything here that I haven't already said tot hem). I see myself as more action-oriented, and I see this family as more discussion-oriented.

I asked the mom of the family I live with what she makes of this situation, and she said that although she would not allow things to go this far, she could see why a family very committed to allowing their child autonomy in decision-making would. She thought that it was possible for a child to never make the decision parents thought they "should," and that trying to guide the child to the decision that the parents wanted him to make is in itself coercive. She said that although she feels that this situation (if taken at face value) is, in theory, consistent with TCS, that it's irresponsoble parenting.

I was hoping this conversation would go more in the direction of "what would you do" rather than debating the validity of the situation or mental health of the parents. When I heard the news story, I just assumed that what I heard was true: here were TCS parents who didn't force their child to go to the dentist and were willing to stand up for that belief. I guess none of us can know what the true story is, though.

Oh, and for what it's worth, in this situation, I think the child should have remained with his parents but been in the legal custody of DYFS so that they could ensure he gets the proper medical attention.

Wilma
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