Bringing the Messiah ...

[merpk]

In Jewish thought, we are responsible for the Messiah's coming or not. There are many different theories/ideas about it ... some say when we're so horrible, G!d sends the Messiah to turn us around. Most (that I'm aware of) say something more along the lines of we'll be doing such a good job of improving the world, that the Messiah will come (kind of to join the fun, or more like to help put the finishing touches on it). Or that we'll be praying so hard for the Messiah to come, how could he/they not.

So basically the point is, when the Messiah does arrive is in our hands ... along with G!d's, so to speak.


In Christianity, does humanity have anything to do with it? Or is it a random thing? Entirely up to G!d? Or what?

[umsami]

From what I remember from my days in Seminary (Xtian, not Muslim ), only G-d knows when the Messiah will come. There are signs pointing to the end times--but I don't remember anything specific that we will do/can do to bring about the event.

Muslims also believe in a Messiah (Mahdi) that will come before the Day of Judgement. We also believe that only G-d knows when it will happen. The Qur'an also mentions that we will be taken by surprise, and will wish that the day never came. Prophet Jesus also returns in the Muslim-view of the end times. He helps lead forces against the dajjal/Anti-Christ. After the Anti-Christ is defeated, Jesus is supposed to rule for 40 years of peace.

Here are some of the signs of the End Times according to Muslims and "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Understanding Islam".
1. Abundant riches will be discovered under the Euphrates River in Iraq, and people will fight over them, causing much death and destruction. (W?)

2. Children will no longer obey their parents.

3. Poor nations will compete with each other to build tall buildings in their cities.

4. It will be hard to tell men and women apart.

5. Women will outnumber men.

6. Religious knowledge will decrease dramatically.

7. Wealth will be widespread, and corruption will be rampant.

8. Music, female singers, and alcohol will be prevalent.

9. The worst people will be chosen as leaders.

10. There will be family turmoil in every household.

[Nemmer]

I'm Christian (LDS) and we believe that only God knows when Christ (the Messiah) will return. Even Christ himself does not know the exact hour. We can't do anything to hasten or delay His return, but are constantly warned to be prepared for it. We are given signs and clues as to when it will happen, but are not participants in bringing it about. HTH!

[BinahYeteirah]

bs"d

Well, Jews aren't exactly sure what it is that we should do to bring the Messiah (for the 1st and last time). There are many different approaches to this topic within Judaism. We do know that the time of arrival may not be fixed at a predetermined place in time. Hashem is involved with what is happening on Earth, and will decide when the right time is based upon our actions. Some Jews feel that for the Messiah to come, we must all increase in the performance of mitzvot (commandments), making the world a better place, etc. Other Jews concentrate on asking for the Moshiach (Messiah) to come in prayer, as well as increasing in goodness and kindness. I can't give you the sources now, but is says somewhere that if Israel (all Jewish people) would only observe two Sabbaths properly, Moshiach will come. We also look to the story of the Exodus to see why the people we redeemed at that time. Again, I won't quote the source for you right now, but we learn from our sages that the Jews were redeemed from Egypt because they retained Jewish names and ways of dress while in the foreign culture, that they continued to have families despite the decree ordering the drowning of all baby boys, etc.

Must eat now, later!

[BelovedBird]

http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/fa...ah-belief.html


And just for fun moshiach googlism:
http://www.googlism.com/index.htm?ism=moshiach&type=1

[merpk]

umsami I had absolutely no idea that the concept of Messiah existed in Islam. Interesting post ...

NM we (Jews) believe that the Messiah/Mashiakh has yet to arrive at all. As a matter of fact, it is the first and foremost reason that Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah ... the Mashiakh is supposed to come and do what it is that Mashiakh is supposed to do. He's not supposed to have to come a second time to do it ... (& hoping that was stated respectfully) ...

And what we have to do is a matter of much discussion. Like Bina said, some believe we're supposed to do many good deeds, freeing the hidden sparks from the light of Creation with each good deed, to expose enough of the original Light of Creation ... to light his way, perhaps ... others believe prayer will bring the Mashiakh ... there are other ideas on it as well ... all in all, it's in G!d's "hands," obviously, but *we* can speed up the process ... prod G!d, so to speak.

As to what happens after he/they come, also a question ... certain things are consistent across the board, though ... peace throughout the world is one, and also that all will recognize the One G!d. *But that does not mean all will be the same religion. It does mean that everyone will believe in his one religion/beliefs (Jews will still be Jews, Muslims will still be Muslims, etc., etc.) but that everyone will acknowledge G!d.*

A lot more I could say, but can't at this moment ... more later ...





edited to note BB and I just cross-posted, so am sure a lot of this post is unnecessary

[sleeping queen]

unsami, The list of 10 which you gave looks alot like what is happening in the world today.

[umsami]

Originally Posted by sleeping queen

unsami, The list of 10 which you gave looks alot like what is happening in the world today.

I agree totally Sleeping Queen. Although, to be fair, many others have thought that they were living in the "end-times" and have been wrong... so who knows?

One of the stranger signs that I forgot to include is that women will be naked in spite of being dressed. LOL Whenever I think of that, I think of Brittney Spear's MTV awards outfit from a few years back... the totally seethrough one with strategically placed sequins.

[stafl]

I'm guess I'm just mostly curious as to how an Old Testament reader would not pick up the hundreds of prophecies there and not see how they can refer to Jesus christ.

from http://www.uscj.org/ctvalley/beki/material.html

A Jewish definition of messiah may be based on a statement of our sages from the Talmud: "The only difference between the world today and the world after the messiah comes is that when the messiah comes we will be free of foreign subjugation."

Given this definition there are no grounds for debate with Christians over the authenticity of their messiah. It was clear to all their leader was not politically the "King of the Jews." As he failed to provide physical, political salvation, in declaring him messiah the early Christians were re-defining messiah as one who brings spiritual salvation. Whether or not their leader brought spiritual salvation is another question; but it is clear that he did not meet the Jewish definition of messiah.

It's worth reading everything at this link. Don't know about its accuracy, but seems to address the questions you posed.

[merpk]

... by NursingMother
... I'm guess I'm just mostly curious as to how an Old Testament reader would not pick up the hundreds of prophecies there and not see how they can refer to Jesus christ ...

stafl's link is good. Here's another ... be advised, though, that it's an anti-missionary site, so it's maybe worded perhaps strongly.

And if you go to the FAQ link on the page, you'll find a Jewish response to the so-called "proof texts," as the verses from the Tanakh ("Old Testament") are referred to by Jews4Jesus and similar organizations.

[BelovedBird]

Amy, you haven't been paying attention. I gave her jews for judaism already.

I would like to see questions from people after they have read most or all of that site.

[DaryLLL]

Originally Posted by umsami

Here are some of the signs of the End Time

And I would like to comment on them.

1. Abundant riches will be discovered under the Euphrates River in Iraq, and people will fight over them, causing much death and destruction. (W?)

Is the oil under the Euphrates?

2. Children will no longer obey their parents.

Did they ever? Is obeying even a relevant term, to AP/GD parents?

3. Poor nations will compete with each other to build tall buildings in their cities.

4. It will be hard to tell men and women apart.

With clothes on or off? Even with clothes on, today, it is easy to tell most men and women apart. Hair is different. In summer here, boys wear baggy shorts and long t-shirts and girls wear micro shorts and second skin tank tops. The differences are more then obvious.

This prediction contradicts the one you cite later about women being naked when clothed.

With clothes off, it is easy and I expect always wil be, to tell men and women apart, except for the small percentage of inter-sexed people, who deserve respect, not to be seen as harbingers of the End.

5. Women will outnumber men.

Ths is biological. Women have more stamina, if not worn out by poor nutrition and overabundant reproduction. Why see this as bad?

6. Religious knowledge will decrease dramatically.

Whew! It is increasing now.

7. Wealth will be widespread, and corruption will be rampant.

8. Music, female singers, and alcohol will be prevalent.

9. The worst people will be chosen as leaders.

10. There will be family turmoil in every household.

All of the above, same as it ever was. Except the unclear statement, wealth will be widespread. Poverty is and always will be, widespread.

Female singers being a bad thing sounds sexist to me, sorry. A glass of wine is good for one's health.

[DaryLLL]

Originally Posted by Nursing Mother

I love reading the OT

Did you know, many Jews find it disrespectful to hear it called the Old Testament. It is properly called Tanakh. Or at least, the Hebrew Bible.

[DaryLLL]

Originally Posted by NM

I'm just talking now, and I know how offensive the subject can be to some Jews, so forgive me it I'm digging to deep here. But I am very very interested in alot of the OT prophecies that seem to me to prophesy a coming Messiah that fit Jesus' description in coming and dying, then being raised from the dead. Even in Psalms 22, the description of a crucifixion it describes what the "son of man" will endure and that form of execution hadn't even been invented yet.

The term Son of Man is not used in Psalm 22. (It is used to mean human being in Ezekiel [Exekiel himself] and to mean Messiah in Daniel however.) Crucifixion and/or a cross are not mentioned in Psalm 22. The phrase, "pierced my hands and feet," is highly controversial and IMO, nothing sure to base belief upon.

The same phrase can be translated, "like a lion my hands and feet."

Many scholars see the passion narrative written as midrash from bits and pieces of Tanakh, deliberately. If is had really happened, why retell the story as a compliation of Tanakh quotes?

The central problem, as I see it, is this.

Fundamentalist Xtians like to see a deeper meaning (ie:foreshadowing of J) in certain verses in Tanakh. They take verses out of context and may use some verses in a chapter as predictions, and leave out the preceding and following verses which do not fit their objective. I recently pointed this out in another thread.

Jews take the original, historical (BCE) interpretation.

As you, NM, I mean no offense with my views.

[umsami]

Thanks for the Jews for Judaism links... interesting reading.

DaryLLL here are some comments on your comments

*Is the oil under the Euphrates?

One can interprete it that way... although there may be other interpretations that we know nothing about.


*Did they ever? Is obeying even a relevant term, to AP/GD parents?
I'd have to say that in general, kids do not show as much respect to their parents as they did in the past. Does this implicate all kids or all parents?? No. But I find it surprising the way some children talk to their parents/disobey them. And it seems to be getting worse.


*With clothes on or off? Even with clothes on, today, it is easy to tell most men and women apart. Hair is different. In summer here, boys wear baggy shorts and long t-shirts and girls wear micro shorts and second skin tank tops. The differences are more then obvious.
I'd disagree. I would say that today, men and women dress more alike than differently. This has come to pass pretty recently with the acceptance of trousers for women... (and let's not forget Jean Paul Gautier's attempt to bring skirts into men's wardrobe. ) Also, think of short hair for women--when in the past, a woman having shorn hair was seen as a sign of disgrace. (NB: I do have short hair. )

*This prediction contradicts the one you cite later about women being naked when clothed.
I disagree. Where you may find some women who dress as men (or vice-versa), you also find some women appear naked, yet are clothed.

Regarding women outnumbering men, it's a bad thing when it takes extremes. Although these days, with the preference for male babies in China and India, the problem is the reverse. There are not enough marriagable-age women partners for the men.

*Female singers being a bad thing sounds sexist to me, sorry. A glass of wine is good for one's health.

In Islam, both female singers/entertainers and alcohol are not considered good things. If we're honest and we look at the popular female singers of today, very few are there just to sing songs. Most feel that their talent isn't enough... and find themselves acting like strippers on stage. As for alcohol, not all stop at a glass of wine. And for those who do not as well as their innocent victims, alcohol is definitely not a good thing. When my husband was a surgical resident, at least 50% of the trauma cases were alcohol related. Usually, it was the innocent bystanders who ended up in critical care or in the morgue... the drunk usually faired better.

[BelovedBird]

Originally Posted by DaryLLL

Did you know, many Jews find it disrespectful to hear it called the Old Testament. It is properly called Tanakh. Or at least, the Hebrew Bible.

It is properly called TaNaCh when it actualy IS tanach. What NM reads is most definately the "old testament" the existance and name of which is offensive or can be, to jews, yes. But there is no changing that. The christians have a new book that they named the "OT" related in a way to the Tanach or hebrew bible but they are not one and the same.

Daryl, if you do not see a need for modesty in dress and behavior, of men and women you will never agree, even slightly with umsami and the prophesies she listed. Personally, I am not real into prophesies so from that angle I don't find any of it relevant to my life.

But on the OT discussion of modesty in judaism a woman's singing voice is called "nakedness", which does not mean it is bad, but rather private, and erotic....
We can get more into that if you want but it seems so off topic, the whole idea of what modesty is and why reserving things for special occasions means they are special, not bad......

[DaryLLL]

Originally Posted by umsami

*Did they ever? Is obeying even a relevant term, to AP/GD parents?

I'd have to say that in general, kids do not show as much respect to their parents as they did in the past. Does this implicate all kids or all parents?? No. But I find it surprising the way some children talk to their parents/disobey them. And it seems to be getting worse.

Society is deteriorating. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer respect their parents and everyone thinks they have a book or story to tell. It is clear that the collapse or end of the world is at hand.--Assyrian tablet 3000 BCE

Our teenagers love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority, they show disrespect for their parents, they mock them at home and tyranize their teachers at school. --Plato 400 BCE

*With clothes on or off? Even with clothes on, today, it is easy to tell most men and women apart. Hair is different. In summer here, boys wear baggy shorts and long t-shirts and girls wear micro shorts and second skin tank tops. The differences are more then obvious.

I'd disagree. I would say that today, men and women dress more alike than differently. This has come to pass pretty recently with the acceptance of trousers for women... (and let's not forget Jean Paul Gautier's attempt to bring skirts into men's wardrobe. ) Also, think of short hair for women--when in the past, a woman having shorn hair was seen as a sign of disgrace.

Women have worn trousers for millenia, in various cultures and in various times. Men have worn "skirts," robes, kilts. Men and women in ancient times both wore the tunica.

*This prediction contradicts the one you cite later about women being naked when clothed.

I disagree. Where you may find some women who dress as men (or vice-versa), you also find some women appear naked, yet are clothed.

So you are saying, the Messiah will come when some men and women dress alike, but some women go around nearly naked? Do Africa and the Amazon count or just the Middle East? Do you see the cultural difficulty here?

No, BB, I do not accept the modesty issue as an indicator of end times.These dire predictions must be universal, or become irrelevant. I speak from logic and common sense, not belief. Mean no offense.

Regarding women outnumbering men, it's a bad thing when it takes extremes. Although these days, with the preference for male babies in China and India, the problem is the reverse. There are not enough marriagable-age women partners for the men.

So as I said earlier about religious knowledge decreasing, "Whew!"

*Female singers being a bad thing sounds sexist to me, sorry. A glass of wine is good for one's health.

In Islam, both female singers/entertainers and alcohol are not considered good things. If we're honest and we look at the popular female singers of today, very few are there just to sing songs. Most feel that their talent isn't enough... and find themselves acting like strippers on stage.

See what I said about this must be universal or be irrelevant.

Some female singers are poptarts. So are some males, IMO. No one takes them seriously as singers. It is burlesque, writ large and in our homes through the miracle of TV.

I suggest the majority of singers, male and female, are judged by talent and ability, not looks alone. A singer that is relying solely on an erotic presentation, but has no talent, fails. Examples are too numerous to relate here.

Originally Posted by BB

But on the OT discussion of modesty in judaism a woman's singing voice is called "nakedness", which does not mean it is bad, but rather private, and erotic.

Cultural prejudice again. And I seem to see lots of women, publically singing and playing loud musical instruments, in Tanakh. ???

As for alcohol,

Again, this is cultural and not universal. It assumes a Muslim code is the only proper one and if not obeyed, a sign of the End. Alcohol is and always has been, prevalent, world-wide.

[sleeping queen]

Umsami, Once agian I agree with your posts and insights. I can't comment on the oil busines.

I see so many disrespectful, disobedient children doing stuff that even 30 years ago would be considered completely disrespectful and parents calling it a phase.

I'm not biased agianst female singers but just look at what they wear and how they perform. Madonna and brittany come to mind. That is not entertainment.

Beloved bird, Please forgive me if this is offensive. Does the tanach and the OT have the same books of the Bible? What are the differences between the two.

[SaveTheWild]

I am not a believer of prophesies, but wanted to make this point...

a lot of you are looking to American culture to see whether the prophesies are playing out (especially in relation to the men/women issue and female entertainer's clothing, etc.) Yes, much of the world is starting to adopt american culture, but still, American culture is not reflective of the vast, vast majority of the world. If we are talking sheer numbers, what is relevant is what is going on in China and India, etc. not in the U.S.

[merpk]

SQ, I don't want to answer for BB's intentions, but would hazard a guess that she was referring to the fact that what Christians call the "Old Testament" is invariably their translations of the TaNaKh from the original Hebrew, and their translations are invariably ... skewed. To put it politely.

As the most famous example, the word for "young woman" being mistranslated as "virgin" ...






Oh, and BB you're right, I did not read your links ... we cross-posted those posts, and I never went back to yours to check them out My bad. Won't do it again, I promise.