rapture ain't just a perfume - Page 2

[pie]

Amy I got your back if you got mine baby.

[NewMa]

Originally posted by abimommy


Christians (well the ones who read the scriptures)do not believe Jews have been superceded they believe Jews are the "chosen people"

Okay, this I don't really get. It's been my understanding all along that Christians are defined by their belief that one must accept Jesus as the messiah and as one's personal saviour in order to obtain access to the kingdom of heaven come apocalyse; all others are to be damned to hell for eternity. Am I missing something, or are Jews necessarily included in the "all others" category? I gotta ask- how much can Christians really believe that the Jews are God's chosen people if they simutaneously believe that the Jews are to be cast into damnation?

[pie]

oooooh goooood question.

You know, Christianity can be so negative. So is my son going to hell because I won't raise him Christian? Or is he forgiven because he is innocent? At what age is he responsible for himself?

If God sends nonbelievers to hell then I don't want to go to heaven anyway.

[NewMa]

If God is Love and we are all God's children, as the Bible says, then how can God cast his beloved children into an eternity of agony and suffering? No, I don't think I want to spend forever with this guy either. Again, maybe I'm missing something, but he kind of sounds like a hypocrite to me.

[MommyBear]

Actually, we're not ALL God's children. Yes, God created us but unless we trust in Him, we are not His children.

Romans 8:11-17 mentions several times the difference between those that are Gods children and those that are not. If we were all God's children, there would be no need for Christ as God's children share in His riches (such as eternal life).

Romans 9:6-8 says that not even all Jews are God's children. The Jews are His chosen people so if not even all of them are God's children, how can everyone be God's child?

I have several other scriptures to back this up if anybody would like to read them. I'm not trying to be rude, just showing that the Bible never says that we are ALL God's children.

[pie]

YOu aren't being rude to express your interpretation of the bible, not rude at all.

What does the bible say about my son? Is he gone burn or what?

[MommyBear]

Personally I believe in the age of accountability. Meaning that before a child comes to the realization of WHY something is wrong, they are innocent. A 2 year old can understand that he's not supposed to hit his little sister, take a cookie fromt he cookie jar or spit on someone but until he knows WHY they are wrong and chooses to do them anyway, he is still innocent in they eyes of God.

It's a complicated matter and very hard to explain. There isn't a set age for this. Children mature at different rates as we all know so this age is different for everyone.

[pie]

I get you, but are you saying some children are damned? I definitely want NOTHING to do with a God that would punish someone who a child for simply not believing.

[Super Pickle]

Newma wrote:
"Okay, this I don't really get. It's been my understanding all along that Christians are defined by their belief that one must accept Jesus as the messiah and as one's personal saviour in order to obtain access to the kingdom of heaven come apocalyse; all others are to be damned to hell for eternity. Am I missing something, or are Jews necessarily included in the "all others" category? I gotta ask- how much can Christians really believe that the Jews are God's chosen people if they simutaneously believe that the Jews are to be cast into damnation?"


Let me try to explain what we believe based on the Bible: first, the Rapture, in which almost all believers in Jesus are taken up. Then, a terrible several years on earth during which a large number of Jewish believers in Jesus ( the ones who were not taken up, referred to as "the remnant") will bring about the fulfillment of God's plan by persuading many multitudes that Jesus is the Messiah. The Bible says "And all Israel will be saved," meaning, we think, that the Jews will accept Jesus en masse before the Big End.
Of course there is dissent about the exact sequence of events but there is no question in our minds that the Jews will always be God's chosen people and that they will recognize Jesus as Messiah eventually.

[amy mama]

oh goodie-my two year old won't burn in hell. But when she's twelve, watch out!:

[kama'aina mama]

Okay, I am not one of those people who can quote chapter and verse to support things. I just know what I have been taught, usually with scriptural support that I didn't commit to memory. The jist of it is that everyone has a chance at salvation. That at some point either during your life or in the hereafter before all things are fixed, you will understand as much as a human can about who God is. You will choose whether to accept him or not.

[NewMa]

Originally posted by Super Pickle


The Bible says "And all Israel will be saved," meaning, we think, that the Jews will accept Jesus en masse before the Big End.
Of course there is dissent about the exact sequence of events but there is no question in our minds that the Jews will always be God's chosen people and that they will recognize Jesus as Messiah eventually.

So, you're saying that the Jews will eventually come to their senses and see the error of their foolish ways. It'll take something as huge and bizarre as all the Earth's christians flying into the sky, but they'll eventually get it.

I know where you're coming from and I know why you probably don't see a problem here. I know there's probably no way to show you where I'm coming from and why I do see a problem here. Where I a Jewish person, I'm fairly sure this mentalilty would really irk me.

[pie]

It irks me to no end. I am sorry, but this is what prevents me from embracing Christianity. Buddhists are not wrong and are not damned for not believing in Christ our Lord. I am not damned. Jews are not. Hindus, agnostics, atheists, good people are not damned. God, if he exists in the way you describe him, could not possibly want to damn good people for doubting a book written and interpreted by man. I don't buy it and I refuse ever to buy it. If there is a heaven I will be there along with all of you so long as I do better than my best each day to be good.

[NewMa]

yes, I too believe that we will be in that heaven. or else hell will full of a lot of very good kind loving caring giving moral people who were christian in every way but by name

[Super Pickle]

"So, you're saying that the Jews will eventually come to their senses and see the error of their foolish ways. It'll take something as huge and bizarre as all the Earth's christians flying into the sky, but they'll eventually get it."


No, I'm not saying anything. I'm just telling you what John, one of Jesus' most intimate friends, the disciple who wrote the "Gospel of Love" wrote down after his vision that he claimed came directly from his dear friend Jesus, and what Paul, the Pharisee (most legalistic of Jews) wrote as he poured out his concern for his people in Romans, the most essential book of Christian theology besides the gospels. It's not like the Southern Baptist Convention got together and made this stuff up.

[Super Pickle]

I hope we're all in Heaven together with God forever. Wouldn't that be awesome!

[Super Pickle]

"Gosh I would hope not!! not the southern baptist.."

NM, you know why I used them as an example? B/C a couple of years ago there was this huge outcry b/c the SBC decided to make an effort to reach the Jews and as part of their decision they wrote that the Baptists were to "reject any attitude of spiritual superiority with respect to the Jewish people." Well, a lot of derisive editorials popped up around here . The authors assumed that the S.B.'s *meant* to "reject any attitude of spiritual superiority __on the part of__ the Jewish people."

So what the SBC was actually saying was that the Baptists should bear in mind that Christians are just the wild branches grafted onto the cultivated olive tree of Judaism and that we should maintain appropriate humility, just as Paul commanded in Romans 10-11. But they were mistakenly accused of suggesting that Christians beware of Jewish arrogance. :

[steph]

Why are our words always twisted and misunderstood by the world?

nm, i can't reply for the whole world, but imo, i think the reason so many take offense to much of what's said by christians is the underlying arrogance that's inherent. an assumed spiritual superiority. because YOU (as a group, not apersonal attack here) believe something to be true (and faith is simply that, a belief or faith in), it's assumed to be universally true. those who don't share your beliefs can often "hear" that unspoken assumption. it may not be ment as arrogance, but it often comes off that way - as discounting the POTENTIAL VALIDITY of another belief system.

i've personally wondered what would happen if at the end, christians found out they only had it partially right? that it's not what they thought, that it wasn't about christ literally, but about living a life with a heart that wasloving and forgiving?

ok, back to the discussion at hand....

[Naomi]

nm, i can't reply for the whole world, but imo, i think the reason so many take offense to much of what's said by christians is the underlying arrogance that's inherent. an assumed spiritual superiority. because YOU (as a group, not apersonal attack here) believe something to be true (and faith is simply that, a belief or faith in), it's assumed to be universally true.

Okay, I actually understand why Christians believe that their doctrines are universally true. Christianity is a faith that does not lend itself to moral relativism of the 'oh, all religions are true and beautiful in their own way' variety. I can respect that.

However, what DOES bug me, and which often leads me to see Christians as arrogant, is the attitude that because Christians believe something, it's universally obvious. That it's obvious that God exists, first of all, that Jesus is the Son of God, that the Bible is true, etc., etc., and so anyone who doesn't believe this must just be wilfully stubborn or in league with Satan. I encounter this attitude when I see Christians ask atheists, "why do you hate God so much?" The atheists I know don't hate God any more than they hate Santa Claus. They simply don't believe in either.

The possibility that other people could sincerely and genuinely believe in something else the way they sincerely and genuinely believe in Christ is something that many Christians I've encountered seem to have a great deal of difficulty grasping.

[steph]

nm, i personally, and many that i know, don't take offence to christianity, per se, but the way that it's put out there. as i said it's the implied spiritual superiority that gets in the way. nor do i discount your beliefs - rather feel that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and that they are all equal. after all, they are all personally held (even though there are social structures behind many of them), and we are all, imho, equal as beings. you may not believe that to be true as is, of course, your perfect right.