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WWYD? FIL & DD issues- porn & possible abuse of DN  

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
About a year ago, I asked MIL & SIL to watch my DC (DD was 2 and DS was 4 at the time) at my house, while I was at the orthodontist. Instead of FIL staying at his house, he was trying to avoid someone, and he ended up coming with MIL to my house. This was a big suprise, because he is not generally into DC at all. So, MIL & FIL were watching DC, and I left for my appointment. They had also brought along my neice, who was 3 and lives with them. I told MIL before I left that DD was not wearing panties under her long dress, because she was potty-training and that made it easier for her.

So, I got back and DH got home from work. FIL pulled DH aside and told him to erase our computer history. After they left, DH told me and we went in and looked at it. He had gotten around my password by logging in under a different server and had spent the *entire* afternoon looking at porn, right where everyone could see it. It was not 'playgirl' type stuff. It was extremely graphic, had violence against women, and even clips with sound. I was horrified. I have never yelled at anyone in my life (besides DH sometimes ), but I *yelled* at FIL that night on the phone. I only talked to him for a few minutes but I made it clear to him that we knew it was him (he had tried to deny it), and that he was not welcome in my home anymore. DH had called him first, but was just going "uh-huh" a lot, so I had taken the phone. I can't remember ever being so mad in my life.

The other thing that made me sick to my stomach was that when I got home, MIL told me she had made DD put panties on because it was making FIL uncomfortable. She was TWO in her own house, in a long dress. I think he was uncomfortable because of what the porn was making him feel.

Then, after that, the niece that lives with them and is less than a year older than DD turned out to be sexually molested. It was confirmed by DCFS, two doctors, and one therapist. This is when I found out that this neice sleeps alone frequently with FIL at night in the same bed, in their camper, with MIL on the couch because there "isn't room." They all blame the bio-dad, but DN almost never sees him ever, and almost all the visits have been supervised.

So, in the end, FIL cried, admitted to looking at the porn (after DH printed out the pictures and took then over there for MIL and FIL to see together), and said he was a new man, etc, etc. I have not seen him since that day and neither have my DC. Most of this is due to the fact that we never saw him anyway, and also that we moved 2000 miles away for other reasons.

The problem is now, that they are moving here. That is fine with me, because I like MIL and SIL and DN a lot. My problem is, what do I do with FIL living ten miles from us?

I would not leave him alone around DC, or let him near my comp.
But my feelings tell me I do not ever want him in my house, do not want DC in his house (for a lot of reasons), and do not trust him. Even in a big gathering, I do not feel safe. I was molested as a young girl at a family gathering by a relative- it only took the guy a few minutes alone with me in the kitchen and no one was any the wiser. I could not live with myself if that happened to DD, when I knew better.

I am not worried about hurting FILs feelings, he isn't all that into DC as it is, and my DC have only seen him a handfull of times in their lives. I am worried about handling situations, like "Can you guys all come over for DN's birthday party?" or whatever, yk? I don't want to make MIL hate me or something. As for MIL's part in this, I realize she is an enabler and in denial, and I do trust *her* alone, just not her and FIL together.

So, thank you if you read this far. They are getting here next month. I just need some advice on what to do and say. DH will back me up whatever I decide, but honestly I think he thinks I worry too much. I just read Gavin Be Beker's books about fear and it could not have happened at a better time. Still, I wish I didn't have to feel like the FIL police of the family.
WWYD?


ETA: I think this is harder for me, because my parents are down-right abusive and terrible to DC, so we don't see them. It just makes it harder to have *both* sets of families with issues. My DC deserve some nice relatives besides DH and I.
post #2 of 29
First, with regards to FIL being around your kids, go with your gut. Yuck, yuck, yuck. Even if it makes you the family bad guy, if your instincts are telling you that it would put them at risk, don't allow it. It does sound like you'll have to do a fair amount of policing - e.g. if you're invited over to a family gathering, say no if he will be there or if it's a 'maybe,' and get together with family on your turf and your terms only (ie no FIL). You don't need to make up excuses or feel bad.

Second, I'm unclear on your niece's current status. Is she still spending time with FIL, possibly in the same bed? If so, I think you are obliged to inform the authorities of your concerns, for her protection. What happened with her bio-dad? If there is a cloud of suspicion over him or he has lost access to her over this, and you suspect it may be unfounded (ie it was actually FIL), pursue it. I know that CPS can be scary, but it's better to err on the side of caution when it comes to children's safety, as you know.

Maybe you're wrong and your FIL is not a molestor, or that way inclined - however, he is seriously icky (who spends all day looking at violent porn while babysitting - ugh!), and erring on the side of caution is totally warranted, in my view.
post #3 of 29
please protect your kids first above everything (dn too if you can)

you can't relax and have everything be as normal as possible, like birthday parties, unfortunately

That is so intense I'm sorry we have some unresolved neglect/abuse in our family and I don't get anywhere near it and they're nearby too--CPS wouldn't do anything! It's not as bad as that though

I'm glad you could confront it!
post #4 of 29
that's really sad.

i'm wondering...is FIL your husbands bio father or is he a stepfather? I doubt this is something that has just cropped up recently. what does your DH think of this - and did he have any abuse issues growing up?

mostly I just stand by you that you should not have anything to do with FIL. as you said, it only takes a minute of unsupervised time for it to happen. who cares if it makes you the bad guy...this is too important to risk. i just cant' believe your MIL..but then i've heard that often the wife is in denial.

very sad situation, especially for your neice.
post #5 of 29
Thread Starter 
[QUOTE=mammastar]

Second, I'm unclear on your niece's current status. Is she still spending time with FIL, possibly in the same bed? If so, I think you are obliged to inform the authorities of your concerns, for her protection. What happened with her bio-dad? If there is a cloud of suspicion over him or he has lost access to her over this, and you suspect it may be unfounded (ie it was actually FIL), pursue it. I know that CPS can be scary, but it's better to err on the side of caution when it comes to children's safety, as you know.
QUOTE]

DN still lives with them.
SIL, MIL, FIL, and DN all live together, and now SIL is pregnant again. (I am too!)
They all stuck together and said it was 110% bio-dad who did the abuse. I think the two options are-- that it actually was the bio-dad, OR since they really really hate bio-dad, he was an easy target and they killed two birds with one stone by stopping his visitation over this, which is what they wanted anyway.

I talked to DH a lot about this when it happened, and I just think if he and SIL are okay with FIL (their dad), then maybe FIL wouldn't do that to DN, yk? I mean, SIL would know if her dad was an abuser, wouldn't she?
I admit I don't know. I just have my gut feelings, and FIL has always set off my creepy radar.
I don't want to be overly cautious and make things worse...

I am over my head in this situation.
post #6 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piglet68
that's really sad.

i'm wondering...is FIL your husbands bio father or is he a stepfather? I doubt this is something that has just cropped up recently. what does your DH think of this - and did he have any abuse issues growing up?

He is my DH's bio father.
FIL was very abusive to DH when DH was a child. FIL was a raving alcoholic for a lot of DH's childhood, but he is recovered now for (I think about) 15 years.

That is why I am confused too- wouldn't at least SIL know if FIL was a molester? All the facts point to yes, but she says no way.


ETA- if it were up to DH, I think we would still be around his dad and just 'watch him.' He isn't convinced, but he is one of those people who think NOTHING bad will EVER happen, yk?
post #7 of 29
On the one hand: watching porn doesn't make someone a sexual deviant, or more prone to abusive behaviour. As much as it probably yucked you right out, porn in and of itself is not necessarily a red flag.

On the other hand: it's so common for people to be in denial about this, especially in regards to a loved one...and I have alot of faith in mama's instinct.

So I say, go with your gut...
post #8 of 29
What a nasty situation.

I agree with the pp's- go with your gut and protect your children!
post #9 of 29
Go with your gut, I know that I would not be able to trust him around my children because of the possiblity that he abused your DN. Even if it wasn't him that would be in my mind and I wouldn't be able to get over it. If there isn't room for everyone in the bed, why doesn't MIL sleep with your DN and your FIL take the couch? That seems logical to me and I know in my family if our home was set up that way my MIL would sleep with my kids alone before my FIL ever would.
post #10 of 29
Mama, your instincts are likely right on target. I agree with Jackie above in saying *WHY* is the FIL sleeping with (or slept with) your neice?? My grandfather used to come to my bed at night, and I assure you it wasn't just to sleep.

It isn't worth the sleep you'd lose over it. Just don't trust him alone with your DD. Even though the porn doesn't automatically indicate a molestation issue (as Piglet68 mentioned) he obviously has some problems with sexual appropriateness and boundaries at the very least.

Your SIL doesn't have to "know," as long as she can remain in denial. There was an easy scapegoat present in the bio-dad. Way too many men (and women too) are capable of this kind of behavior. Just because they are your parents (general you) doesn't make them automatically innocent.

Heads up, mama. I think your concern is way justified.
post #11 of 29
*
post #12 of 29
It's hard for me to respond because I'm in a similar situation.

My dad molested me until I was 15 and I forgave, forgave forgave. He got clean when I was 16 and I let myself believe he was 'fixed', until I found out a year ago that while he isn't molesting kids anymore, he is fixated on younger, vulnerable women and is still exhibiting the predatory, manipulative behavior. I cut him out of my life. It wasn't easy (hardest thing I've ever done), it's still not easy, but my children depend on me to protect them. Having them ANYWHERE near his influence puts them in danger. ANYWHERE. They do not speak to him by phone or by mail, because he is so incredibly good at getting sympathy for himself and could easily pit my kids against me as the bad guy. He's toxic.

I wouldn't let me kids play with poison, I won't let them near someone i know will put them in danger. And I had to basically say to my family that I would not attend events where I knew he was there, and I was even up front as to WHY. So, the family events go on with out me, the family wonders when I'll 'come to my senses' and he acts like a victim to my 'anger'... and I live without my family but knowing that my children will be safe, away from my family who enables my dad, away from my dad who lies and manipulates. Who needs that? My kids and I deserve better.

Family is not who you are born into. Family is who you make it. My family are my close friends who I trust, and who I would trust with the lives of my children. My kids don't need people in their lives just because they share genetics.

I wish for you the courage to make what I know is an incredibly hard, heartwrenching decision.
post #13 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faith
That is why I am confused too- wouldn't at least SIL know if FIL was a molester? All the facts point to yes, but she says no way.
So SIL is your dh's sister, FIL's daughter? If that's the case, it could be that he molested her, too, and admitting to herself that he molested her daughter means 1) actually facing what happened to her and 2) facing up to the fact that she failed her daughter miserably by allowing FIL that sort of access to her.

You never know. The damage from abuse manifests itself in all sorts of ways including, unfortunately, an inclination to stick one's head in the sand even when one's own children are in danger.
post #14 of 29
Thread Starter 
Well, the situation just got more complicated. DH got home from work and I brought this up to him, and he thinks I am over-reacting and everything would be fine if I just let it go. He is still willing to stand behind me, but now it is an 'issue.'

His main problem is what happened with *my* parents. My parents were just abusive, toxic, terrible parents- mostly my mom. Then when I grew up and had DS, they started abusing him. Everytime we backed off in the relationship, they threatened to sue us for grandparents 'rights' to DS. So, by staying in a relationship with my parents, at the time I was trying to keep the lesser of two evils (being together with DS and them, as opposed to the courts just giving DS over to them alone). But DS suffered A LOT in that time. We no longer see them. So, DH now is like-- Why did I give my parents chances over and over, even when they hurt DS and lied to us, and I am willing to only give his dad one chance?
I think it was because I was afraid before, and I am not afraid now, but it upsets DH anyway.
I was doing what Draginfly said and sticking my head in the sand maybe, because the truth was hard to take and I was scared to death of what the courts would do. DH wanted to stop it right away, and it is my fault he didin't.

To answer questions-
Yes, SIL is FIL's daughter.
And I have NO clue why DN slept (sleeps?) with FIL and not MIL. It makes no sense to me.
There really isn't anyone else in the family to get opinions from. It is a pretty odd family. I think my other SIL (who is not FIL's daughter) would be good to ask, but she doesn't have DC yet, so she is not in the same frame of mind I am.

I know porn doesn't make one deviant, but you know some porn that I have seen at his house (before I had DC) really is just deviant porn! You know how there is average porn, and then there is some really messed up stuff? Well, FIL is into the second kind.

I tried to explain to my DH that I have been through all three types of abuse numerous times, and the worst to get over is the sexual. That if this happened to DD, it could wreck her emotionially for a long time. I told him that FIL has given me every warning signal there is, besides actually me catching him in the act. Am I supposed to wait for that to happen?!
I mean, tell me if these are not warning signs when they all happen together-
1) uncontrollable porn habit (even in front of kids)
2) *weird* porn (violence/rape, animals, lactation, young girls, etc.)
3) sleeps in same bed alone with 3 year old girl who is being molested by someone, as confirmed by DCFS
4) general 'creepy old man' vibe since the day I met him
5) known liar

Also, what are the benefits? He is not exactly the type of Grandpa who buys ice cream and takes the DC to the park. He is rather absent or withdrawn, or going off alone to smoke.

I just feel bad about DH now. He is right about my parents and that situation was all my fault. Now when MIL and SIL get here, we are going to have to say something- that DH is not even in agreement with me on. It is just going to be akward and I don't want DH to be mad at me. DH is a *wonderful* person, and he is so easy-going, it is easy to rail-road him into always doing things my way. I will also have to explain things to DC at some point and the whole situation just stinks.
post #15 of 29
About your SIL - I have several friends who were molested by close family members, and the moms refused to believe it, even when my friends finally told them what was going on.

Never underestimate people's willingness to be in denial.

This grandfather sounds like bad, bad news. Stick to your guns - a molestation would change your daughter, FOREVER.

I'm sorry you are in such a tough situation, but I admire your willingness to think the unthinkable - your daughter is lucky to have a mama like you.
post #16 of 29
I remember when you 1st posted about this last year Faith.. I don't have any real words of wisdom for you.. Sometimes we need to trust our instincts.. But sometimes our instincts aren't true or right.. They are clouded by our own history and childhood.. For good or bad... That's mostly were we work from... I would not leave my child with anyone I felt uncomfortable with.. You have some real, genuine concerns regarding your FIL.. 1stly being how well he is watching and supervising children while watching porn.. And 2ndly... Who looks at porn -loud porn- deviant porn- with any children in the room let alone your own grandchildren..

Do what you believe to be right, but your DH has a point.. You wanted to give your parents a chance.. He wants the same for his own father.. I believe that is a reasonable request... Be alert and watchful... But sometimes dirty old men, are just dirty old men, who really harm no one...

Warm Squishy Feelings...

Dyan
post #17 of 29
I agree with everybody, especially slightly crunchy.

I can see your DH's POV...and I respect that you want to respect him. So I guess the only compromise would be that if FIL is around you will always be there. Always. And I agree with slightly crunchy also that the MIL is just as unsafe. Her denial means she'll have no problems letting your child be alone with FIL when you are not there.

So perhaps you can offer that as a compromise to your DH. Although I think it's worth persuing further with him. I might be okay with still letting the IL's around, but I would NEVER let my children out of my sight, and I sure as hell would never let them babysit, or leave my kids with anybody who might let them visit (ie. another IL family member).
post #18 of 29
I agree, go with your gut. You can never be too careful while protecting your children, especially from sexual predators. I would rather cut off all my family for good if I suspected anything than have my daughter scarred for life.
post #19 of 29
I don't think that you should compromise, even for supervised visits with this guy. I'm sorry that it has become an issue for your dh, because of the previous stuff around your own parents - can you just say to him, "Look, I'm really sorry I didn't follow your gut earlier with my folks - I've learned from that whole fiasco how important it is to do that as a parent, please allow me to use my new-found knowledge to follow my gut on this one"? Logically it just doesn't make sense for one spouse to say to another "you let abuse by your parents go on too long, so allow me the same amount of rope to put our child in danger through my parents" (which seems to be your husband's position). You made some (understandable) mistakes with your parents - there's no reason for you guys to repeat them with his parents just for the sake of equality of opportunity.

You mentioned that the porn was weird and yucky - it also sounds like you've seen it on more than one occasion, not just the babysitting time on the computer. You said one of the themes is 'young girls' - does he have kiddie porn? Again, huge huge huge alarm bells!!! Also, possibly, possession could be a criminal offence. If you think he has kiddie porn in his home, consider informing the authorities.

I'm so sorry that this is so rough for you with your family - but please stay strong and focused on protecting the vulnerable children involved! Hang in there.
post #20 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piglet68
On the one hand: watching porn doesn't make someone a sexual deviant, or more prone to abusive behaviour. As much as it probably yucked you right out, porn in and of itself is not necessarily a red flag.
Actually, studies have shown that people who regularly expose themselves to violent porn are more likely to commit acts of sexual violence and/or to have been victims of such violence themselves.

Faith, I remember the thread you started last year about the porn on your computer, and I remember how you described some of it. I just want to reiterate what everyone else has said: go with your instincts. It's better to be safe than sorry. If you feel badly that your kids don't have any grandparents in their lives, you can always "adopt" some grandparents at a local nursing home or assisted living facility; places like that are always happy to see visiting kids. There are lots of ways to get your kids happy, healthy interactions with non-bio-family members, ways to do it without getting all the little hairs standing up on the back of your neck.

If my husband was so reticent, and brought up the "Why did you give your parents so many chances and not mine?" argument, I'd have to reply that being so close to the situation confused me and I'm sorry that I didn't cut off relations with my own parents sooner, but making a mistake once doesn't make me obligated to make the same mistake again. If you believe that your children would be in danger from your FIL, and it sounds like you do, I think you should lay that out for your DH. Tell him, flat out, that you will not allow your children to be in his presence, unless he's in a pine box.
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