HELP!! 12mo won't sleep unless she CIO!!!

[bobo dioulasso]

Help!!

I have a 12mo (turning one on Friday!), and recently she has gotten into some terrible sleep issues. She is starting to walk and stand more now, and say more words... a lot of brain development probably going on now... and she is so jazzed up at bedtime/naptime that no matter what I do, she will NOT SLEEP unless I actually leave her alone to cry. I never did this with her in her life, and I don't want to do it... and believe me I HAVE EXHAUSTED ALL OTHER OPTIONS. Usually when she CIO, she is so completely fried and overtired, and I have nursed her and held her and rocked her so many times already... sometimes she has nursed and lay next to me "talking" for over an hour, and I am very patient about it, when she tries to start standing up and rolling over I gently put her back down on the bed and say "It's bedtime". I let her nurse to sleep as I always have, but now she is often less interested in that... I think this is part of the problem. She sort of still likes comfort nursing but now that she's into solids and walking, exploring etc, she is less gung ho about hunkering down for a feed.

I am very overstimulated also by the presence of a loved one. I think she is overstimulated by my presence... rather than sleeping she wants to talk to me, play, do tricks, be awake with me! At times she just goes to sleep peacefully if after her nap/bed ritual, I just put her in her crib and give her her stuffed bunny and leave. At least, she used to be cool with that. Now she WAILS... it's not a cute sad little wail or a lonely wail or a scared wail, it's just MAD and TIRED and temper tantrumy. I don't want her to CIO, and I want to understand and meet her needs, but she is no longer at the age where she is just a wee babe... she is old enough to be manipulative when she doesn't understand what she wants. When it's bedtime it's bedtime, and I know that she really needs sleep more than anything else when she gets like that (and within a few minutes of CIO she usually just literally falls down in the crib and falls asleep wherever she drops!)

It's also further confused by the fact that my dh and I have slightly different perspectives on the situation. He thinks it's okay for her to CIO... however, in the middle of the night or when he's also sleeping, if she makes a lot of noise he gets very irritable and just wants her to stop, and isn't always rational... but I've told him that if he doesn't like it, it's his child too so he can either deal with it or go sleep on the couch (I said it nicer than that ) since we both work outside the home and need our sleep, and I get up for the night feedings. Like once he got really annoyed when I was trying to nurse her to sleep, and on one hand he was like "You're spoiling her" and the other, "Get her to be quiet"!!!

She is SO TIRED sometimes when she finally gives into the battle that she actually at times, has HELD OPEN HER EYES with her fingers so they won't close.... ... she has a seriously stubborn streak and these days, she is so wild at bedtime that all I want is just to find a way for her mind to slow down and let her relax. She has inherited my character in so many ways and this is no exception... look at me, it's almost 2 am and I have to get up tomorrow... I'm a bad girl too... :

any ideas? I feel like a heel letting her just fall asleep falling over after exhausting herself crying in the room alone, but I am at my wits' end, and my very presence seems to stimulate her too much!

BD

[WithHannahsHeart]

Yikes, that must be very hard on all of you. It really sounds like you don't want to do this and that it is painful for you - just so it doesnt come off like you're doing CIO in the same way that many 'mainstream' moms do . I really don't know what to tell you. I mean, if that is the only way she'll go to sleep then perhaps that is what's best for her? It doesn't seem to me like you're forcing her to sleep train or anything. And get your hubby to read Dr. Sears' baby book so he can get some perspective on the silly 'spoiling' issue . Maybe someone else will ahve better advice for you.

[erlyco]

It sounds like you're doing all you can to avaoid CIO. And I think "angry crying" is a lot different from scared/sad/abandoned crying, so I wouldn't worry too much.

Your DD sounds a little like my 14-month-old DS.
He wants to walk, crawl, play, etc.
Just when he seems like he's going to fall asleep nursing, he pops up and starts walking away, etc. Then I lay him in the crib and he hugs his "Ducky" and rolls around. Then he pops up again and wants to walk, etc, etc, etc.
Some nights, I just grab him and bounce him vigorously in my arms (I kind of jog while cradling him). He looks up at me and does this "moaning" type thing while I bounce him. Eventually, his eyes start to roll and the moaning stops. After a few minutes, he's asleep and I lay him in the crib.
It seems like he wants to keep playing, but eventually, he's just too tired. He doesn't know what he wants, but sometimes seems receptive to the bouncing.

Hang in there.

[Piglet68]

Is it possible that YOUR idea of her bedtime is not reasonable? The playing, babbling etc tells me your baby is not ready to go to sleep. How'd you like it if someone told you that you had to go to sleep when you were wide awake?

What if you just play with her, etc. until she is obviously tired - yawning, etc...and then start your bedtime routine. Might make life alot easier for all of you.

PS - good for you for telling your husband off!

[TigerTail]

er, my babies would be up ALL NIGHT if i encouraged it (last night, dd- almost 18 & with a friend, relax- took them on a walk with the double stroller and was out from 8:30 till 10:30! they were happily bopping along & i still had to nurse them to sleep.) i am a night owl & they definately got that from me; unfortunately, they are also early birds & at the crack of dawn, i am not so thrilled if i had to *start* kitchen cleanup at 11 pm. if bobo says her baby wants, needs sleep but is fighting it, i believe her.

i'm sorry you & your dh are not on the same page. that always makes it tougher.

i don't have any immediate solutions, but mine learned to chill out in his crib from wakeful playful to drowsiness (and believe me, i know how maddening it is to have a baby determined to play at 2 am) while i spent time in their room, finding make-work like tidying drawers & toybox & hanging clothes, etc, while singing gently & letting him know i was there for him. no, folding clothes is not sleep, but hanging out like this with him i think transitioned him from not being able to fall asleep anywhere but my breast, to being able to fall asleep on his own (not alone, as his brother is a few feet away, & i am 10 ft away across the hall.) oh, & i had the crib in my room for a long time before moving them to their room.

the more you can make it gradual, i think the less trauma for everyone and it eventually gets you where you are going without the trauma of cio. (i'm afraid cio would be more trauma for me than them, i am like dr sears & have a v low threashhold of tolerance for a baby's cry. i don't know how people do it- not you, bobo, i can hear you're speaking from desperation, but the people who plan it out & calmly do it with tiny babies, esp.)

good luck, i hope you don't get flambe'd, i think it's obvious you are seeking solutions other than cio but are at your wit's end.

suse

[Nate]

Oh, mama, I'm so with you. I used to be able to nurse dd (16 months) down, but lately it just doesn't happen. She nurses & nurses & nurses, and after a while starts getting more & more active (well, sometimes she starts quietly then starts kicking, switching sides, etc., and sometimes she's active from the beginning, which is almost better b/c I can tell just to try again later). I try to do a pre-bed routine, and I can tell that she knows that after bath comes diaper, saying good night to daddy, pull down shades, book, light, nurse, and bed--but she just doesn't get sleepy! Last night a friend was over w/ her 15 mo from 6:30-7, and he was so obviously tired & just wanted to go to bed, and Clara was bouncing all over the place.

Last week I started trying a new routine--we nurse in the rocker, and after a while we move to the bed (she used to fall asleep in the rocker but I think she's gotten big enough that she can't really get relaxed & comfortable there anymore). After nursing a bit in bed (20 min-1/2 hour), if she's still awake and stops I'll kiss her, pull my shirt down, roll over, and tell her mama's going to sleep. I'm not crazy about this method--I feel like it's CIO except worse, b/c I'm there and denying her something she wants. I'm not sure whether it's working or not--the last few nights she's gotten really upset for a few min. but then started playing by herself. AARGH! Last night she did finally go to sleep on her own, but it took her a LONG time. For the last month or 2 it's been 9 or later by the time she goes to sleep. And then I get to get up, clean up the toys, the bath supplies, put in some laundry, run the dishes, iron my clothes for the next day...

It seems like some babies have very obvious "off" switches, and ours just don't. I keep thinking there's something else I can be doing to wear her down, and I just don't know what it is! We'll read a book but often I can barely get through it b/c she knows that when the book is done she gets to nurse.

Also, like yours, my dd just started walking & also seems to be having a big language explosion right now. So maybe that's part of it? And I don't know what it's like where you are, but right now it's light here until 9 pm. I'm hoping that things will get better as the nights lengthen...

Let me know if you get anything figured out. I used to think I wanted another baby--still do, but :, I can't imagine it right now!

[Piglet68]

For the first year of her life, Emily went to sleep at around 11 pm. If I had tried to get her down earlier, it would have been a waste of time, but when she was ready, she went down rather easily. That's why I suggested what I did: for some reason, people seem to think that babies are supposed to go to bed early - I got lots of shocked looks from people when I told them when Emily usually fell alseep. But then, she also rarely woke before 8:30 or 9 am, so she was getting a good sleep, and it worked well for me b/c I am not a morning person.

[Nate]

Hmm, Piglet, that might be worth a shot.

It'd be nice to watch a movie w/ DH every so often, though! OTOH, we could occasionally have a babysitter w/o worrying about messing up bedtime.

My concern, though, is that since I have to get up at 7, and she doesn't usually sleep much after I get up, she won't get enough sleep. Maybe I'll run it by dh as an idea, though. Maybe I'm just too tied to the early bed. After all, that's what all the books say...

Although from what I can tell about the OP's situation, her child is really tired (using her fingers to keep her eyes from closing?) and just won't letdown...

[Devaskyla]

My ds had the same problem (still does but not quite so bad). He stopped napping at about 4 months old unless I put him in the stroller and pushed him back and forth in the living room for 1/2-1 hour every single time. Around 18 months, or maybe a bit earlier, even though he was very tired, he would try to wander around, crawl all over me and generally goof off when I took him for a nap(finally weaned off the stroller around 1 year) or bed. So, I did something I absolutely hated but worked very well.

I held him still on me for a couple of minutes. It always made him cry because he hates to be restrained, but I think he's just so full of energy that he couldn't stop himself. I would hold him until his cry sounded a certain way (impossible to describe), usually a max of 5 minutes, lay him next to me and nurse him and he would be fast asleep in another 5 minutes or less. I felt like the most awful mother in the world for making my little one cry. I know he needed the sleep more than he needed me to do anything to avoid making him cry and I truely believe that restraint of some kind was the only way he was going to be able to stop keeping himself active to avoid sleep. I wish I could have found another way, but that was all I had at the time and I still can't think of what else I could have done.

[aprildawn]

my dd started a similar sleep problems just after her first birthday a year ago. she had previously nursed, been laid in her crib, fallen asleep easily (sometimes she'd whimper, but usually she liked being put down to go to sleep -- we learned that the hard way!), and come to bed with us whenever she woke up in the night.

after her 1st bday everything changed. she flipped out when we put her in her crib. she'd tantrum and scream. sometimes it would take 2 or more hours to get her to fall asleep. insane! so, we started lying down with her to sleep on a mattress on the floor in her room. the first few nights it took a long time and she wanted to play or chatter on about something. but whoever was lying down with her would tell her they were "sleeping" and didn't want to play. eventually she got the picture, would lie down and drift off to sleep.

about moving her bedtime later...i know a couple kids dd's age who go to bed late (10 or 11pm) and they sleep until 9am or so. we tried that with dd. she still woke at 6am and we had a very cranky baby on our hands!

since then, a year later, she's settled into a usually predictable pattern. we lie down with her to sleep, she has even been sleeping all night long more often than not, and she wakes between 7am and 8am. it's a nice routine and i often fall asleep in her room when i'm putting her to bed.

[wemberly]

Sounds like your little tootsie is getting overtired which never seems conducive to sleep. Try nudging bedtime back in 15 minute increments--maybe if you catch her before she's beyond tired, she may have an easier sleep journey. When Elliott (now an amazing 5.5 years) was little, he really needed his own space to go to sleep--cosleeping was too stimulating for him. Whether he slept in our bed or in a crib, he still needed some solo time to collect himself before dropping off; sometimes he'd cry a little (a minute or two) before sleeping, but it wasn't the "I NEED YOU" cry, instead it sounded like stress relief, he just had a lot of stuff going on in his head, and bedtime gave him the solitude he needed to review it (sounds funny in an infant, but it definitely seemed to be the case). I never left him crying--if he was distressed about bedtime, I stayed, but if he got in to bed happily and then cried a little, I'd give him a minute or two, and go back if it was in his best interest (it was definitely in my best interest to go back in--I hate to hear him cry). Anyway, just my two cents--try tinkering with the bedtime schedule, and then make a decision about your dd's need to cry. Maybe it's not stressful for her at all, but rather, like Elliott, she finds crying a nice stress reliever.

Happy sleep journeys to you both mama...

[aprildawn]

good point, wemberly, about the stress relief. like i said in my previous post, dd used to whine or cry a bit when we put her down to sleep, and she preferred to be put in her crib to sleep, and she cried harder if we picked her up. even now, with me lying beside her at night, she'll talk and talk and sing and sing. not playing or putting off sleep, she's processing her day. the fussing was likely the same thing. i wish i'd had someone point that out to me a year ago.

[Messy Nessie]

My DD does this sometimes... especially when she has spent more time with her daddy than me (I work at home and sometimes outside my home). We never know until we've done her routine and she is still awake... so we keep the lights dim and let her play with her toys and bounce away all that energy in the bouncer while we eat dinner. Then I join her wherever she is playing until she starts to get fussy and rub her eyes. I take her to our chair and try to nurse her to sleep- sometimes she is ready, sometimes not.

Often she will not be ready for hours... usually I am exhausted, so I have taken to barracading her on the bed with me (pillows and guard rail) and let her throw herself around and burn off the energy and i can lay down and relax. Then she will snuggle against me when she is ready and nurse to sleep.

I agree with Piglet that maybe she is just not ready for bed. We have a daily routine that rarely changes, but we always try to follow her cues first instead of sticknig to routine for its own sake.

Another thought it looking at her naptimes. Is she napping too many hours during the day? Is the last nap too close to bedtime? We recently had to adjust naps to fit my DD's ability to stay awake longer and needing less sleep. She was staying up late and now she is back to her normal bedtime.

[bobo dioulasso]

hi everyone,

I'm back... dd has been too stimulated lately by typing sound while she sleeps, so I haven't been able to go online for a few days (plus it was her bday yesterday!).

I am glad no one thinks I am an evil mom and that I am not alone in what I'm doing. I really never practiced CIO with her. My dh and I don't have the same opinions about some aspects of childrearing, but luckily for me, in his culture it's the woman's right (and duty too, on the other hand) to decide how to rear the children, so all he can really do is comment and then back off and let me handle it as I see best. And eventually he sees the point of why I do most things, so it's more of a little spat than a real chasm of conflict. Certainly he is pleased with the results overall!

I think my dd is just very very energetic and curious. BTW, Piglet, she IS definitely tired (beyond tired) by the time she goes to bed. Dh and I joke that her degree of fatigue can be detected almost scientifically by the decibel level of her scream before finally dropping to sleep, and also the louder and more desperately she screams, the quicker she drops off asleep. I think it's true that sometimes older children, especially, do need solo time to just collect their wits and such, and that sometimes it involves crying... they THINK they need you because they think they need you for everything and that you are a part of them, etc... but at times, I think this is the beginning of their finding their own independence. It is very different from a 2 month old baby crying out of loneliness or real physical needs, etc. My dd unfortunately has inherited my overstimulability. Sometimes I truly need to leave her alone in order to let her find her sleep. If I stay there she sees it as a cue to stay up and interact, and will fight sleep tooth and nail.

Usually the problem is worse at nap time when it's light out. She goes to bed usually between 7 and 8, on some nights later because dh sometimes drives her to my job to pick me up when I get out at 8 or 9:30 pm... it takes him 20 minutes to drive there but over an hour with public transport so it is a big help, and it is good to reconnect with her after work if she isn't fast asleep already. I don't put her to bed earlier, even though she gets tired around 6 ish at times, because I don't want her to wake up any earlier than she does, and I don't want to lose any more time I have with her after my work schedule. Also it doesn't make sense to have such totally different bedtimes on nights she picks me up or doesn't, so I settled on 8 as a good compromise time for a mom working 4 nites/wk. Night time is usually all right, although sometimes she wakes up often.

I am starting to wonder also if I've painted myself into a corner by making her dependent on nursing to fall asleep (at least with me... she doesn't do it with dh or at day care). I always thought it was nice and something I could give to her out of love, and I never minded it... it was a time for me too, to relax and have no other duties except lying around being with my baby. But now that she gets older, even though I have no immediate plans to wean my 12mo, I don't want to nurse her past 2 yrs old (that will already be stretching my dh's conception of what is normal in his culture... which is ironically one of the cultures that inspired the AP and babywearing movements.) I love nursing her but I am just physically getting tired from it... no one really talks about how much it takes out of your body, nutrient wise... plus I really miss being able to have a full lunch break without pumping all day, I miss not having to count out my life in 3 hour stretches and dealing with boob fullness, I miss wearing one piece dresses, I miss being able to go on cleanses and watch my weight occasionally without worrying about my milk... all in all, I like nursing her, but I cannot see it going on forever.

Anyways, that is off this topic, there is probably another thread for that, but it's sort of part of the issue... she still gets up every few hrs at night, and I have just learned to deal with the lack of uninterrupted sleep. And I don't know if I will ever be able to train her to fall asleep without nursing, or if some magic day will come when she's just ready.

I think also that moms like Wemberly, KNOW when their baby is crying out of a real urgent need for you to come in, or when they are just letting off steam (at least in older babies). This is something my dh doesn't really understand. It's not like a rule book or a certain length of time, its' intuition. Sometimes she cries a certain way and I know she is telling me she just pooped, or fell and bumped her head on the crib rail (ow )... and so I come in. Other times I can sense she is just being a drama queen and just needs to learn to... oh I hate to use this term but in her case it is sometimes true!... "use her own resources". At 12months, a baby is still a baby, but they need to begin learning to distinguish shades of need and want and whim. By constantly attending to every whim as if it were an urgent need, I'm setting her up to be a slave to her fancies and lower nature. I know this doesn't have to be taught with force, but like everything in life, soemtimes the desires are so strong that you just have to back off and let them learn for themselves what works and what doesn't. It's part of the "couple" relationship of parent and child... you have needs too, like the parent who fakes sleep so the child will eventually get bored and realize you aren't available to play. That's to me, an honest and authentic response, not a punishment. To do other than that when you are truly exhausted and it's not the appropriate wake-up time for them, is teaching them that they are the boss and you are there to serve all their whims, which isn't true about parents and children, nor is it true about adults in relation to the larger world. Besides I've done that too (the fake sleeping thing but it's hard because she will crawl off the bed if I don't watch out.

Thanks all for your responses. Interesting thread...

BD

[TigerTail]

a little ot, but there are great nursing dresses at http://www.milknwildhoney.com/

suse

[mother_sunshine]

Have you tried upping her bedtime a little bit? When dd used to get overtired she would react in a similar way and it was actually harder to get her to go to sleep. Nursing her to sleep a little earlier helped a lot.

[Raven]

Originally Posted by Piglet68

For the first year of her life, Emily went to sleep at around 11 pm. If I had tried to get her down earlier, it would have been a waste of time, but when she was ready, she went down rather easily. That's why I suggested what I did: for some reason, people seem to think that babies are supposed to go to bed early - I got lots of shocked looks from people when I told them when Emily usually fell alseep. But then, she also rarely woke before 8:30 or 9 am, so she was getting a good sleep, and it worked well for me b/c I am not a morning person.

same here! Amber used to fall asleep between 10pm and 11pm until she was about 2yrs old. Now she falls asleep by 8pm no problems.

[michray]

Wow, I thought I was the only one who was dealing with this and feeling the same about it! Our dd has always co-slept and at about age 1 we started slowly putting her in the crib in the beginning of the night for safety reasons since she would crawl right off the bed in her sleep!
Now, I just cannot let her CIO.. it is probably way worse on me than her, but I did finally discover that I had to let her get tired, had to stick to a bedtime routine AND give her space.
Now we just lay on the couch together and I "talk" to her about my day while she plays with my hair and drifts off to sleep. Often, she will fuss and try to get up, but if I gently lay her down and remind her that its bedtime and that we are talking, she usally ends up sound asleep within 15 minutes or less.
Of course.. STAYING asleep is a whoel different ballgame. I haven't more than 4 hours of sleep at a time since she was born. Its like a very bad science experiment

[mackinsiesmom]

With us my dd won't go to sleep with me. She is wanting to play when I try to put her down. For some reason she wants DH to put her to sleep. I can't even be in the same room as them or else she won't go to sleep. I think she just wants her daddy alone time with him at night since he is gone during the day.

[Nate]

Bobo;
First, thanks for the thread--we've been having lots of bedtime problems recently, and this thread has helped me realize that we're not the only ones w/ a night owl! I babysat a friend's 15 mo this wkd, and he fell asleep in the crib at about 7:15--upset b/c mama wasn't there, but wow, when he's tired he just drapes himself on you & begs for sleep. A far cry from my bundle of energy, who stayed up until 10 that night...

Anyway, re: nursing, etc. When DD was about a year I stopped pumping--I'd been weaning down until then. It really helped me--I felt like I finally could lead a normal workday w/o worrying about where I would be at 11 & 3! It's okay to stop pumping, you know...and the best part (well, a good side-effect) is that now I can wear the occasional silk blouse w/o worrying about getting little drops of milk on it.

I still haven't started wearing one-piece dresses, though.

Oh, and if you look at my pp's about saying night-night and rolling over, it seems to be working! YAY! It still can take her 10-15 min of fussing & looking for a comfortable position, but she hardly complains anymore when I cut her off.

Of course, soon it'll be a different problem...