What do you feel your obligation to your children is as a parent,

[Gendenwitha]

and your obligation to self-sufficienty vs. community inter-dependence, and how does that affect your decision of how many children to have?

For instance, I know I want to not accept gov't assistance or charity except in times of unavoidable hardship, and I want to feed and clothe my children, provide for a good education including college, (although I have mixed feelings about that because I think if they don't work for at least part of their college they won't appreciate it).

I also think I need to prepare for unexpected circumstances by having health insurance, short-term disability and life-insurance. I also think I have a responsiblity to plan for my own future so I'm not a burden on them later in life.

On a simplier level, I don't think they're entitled to a car unless they earn it and it's maintence & insurance themselves, but I do see basic swimming skills, some type of basic music instruction such as piano, as mandatory; and one or two interests like soccer or art lessons, as reasonable, but not at the expense of giving to charity which is a value I also want them to learn.

I think I have an obligation to a certain amount of individual time with their parents, which would prevent us from having tons of kids even if we became tremendously wealthy. (What that number would be exactly I've never thought about, ask me if we reach tremendously wealthy! )

[ekblad9]

I feel our obligation include feeding/clothing/educating them through high school. I do not feel obligated to pay for college. I payed for my own and it turned out fine. If they were really struggling I would help if I could but it would be on a case by case basis. I definately don't feel obligated to buy them a car. I feel that they all deserve individual attention and a couple of hobbies (within reason). Mostly I want to send them on their way in life with a good sense of self and high morals.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Honestly, I’m much more restricted by the time and energy that I want to give my child(ren) than money. That said, I don’t feel particularly obligated to give my child the things money can buy - not that I wouldn’t necessarily provide them if I had the money.

[sweetest]

This is such a huge topic with me and dh. I am the oldest of 3 and remember there never being the money for things I wanted. All of my best friends growing up were only children. I loved going to a house that was clean and neat and quiet and having parents around who knew I was there. My parents also had marital problems, which made our household even more chaotic.

I also vividly remember being in the 9th grade and looking at colleges and asking my dad of they had any money saved for me. He laughed. So yeah, I made it through college alone, and now through law school. And I will be lucky to ever pay back what I owe. I just want to give my dd a better start in life, KWIM?

My parents were very pull-yourself-up-by -your-own-bootstraps regarding providing for us. I did okay for myself, but my siblings are still having a hard time, all reluctant to have children.

I dont think my child is "entitled" to such things as a car and a college education, these are things that I want to give her, so much so that I waited until I was in a financial position to do this before I started a family. I think that there is a real obligation there to give your child the best start in life you can, whatever that means to you.

[mamawanabe]

My obligation is to provide wonderful family in which my children feel safe and loved.

[Dar]

So, do you consider things like using public schools and roadways to be public assistance? Or public transportation, whic is generally subsidized? Social security retirement benefits, and medicare? Or working for a big corporation that most likely received some special benefits from the gov't - corporate welfare, which costs us far more than AFDC ever did?

Dar

[Meiri]

Our obligation is to feed, clothe, house, and raise them with much Love to become responsible adults.

If we can help them with college, we certainly will, and are planning to in fact. Cars are not guaranteed.

[mamawanabe]

Originally Posted by Dar

So, do you consider things like using public schools and roadways to be public assistance? Or public transportation, whic is generally subsidized? Social security retirement benefits, and medicare? Or working for a big corporation that most likely received some special benefits from the gov't - corporate welfare, which costs us far more than AFDC ever did?

Dar

you're awesome

[mcimom]

For us, we feel obliged to give our kids a Catholic education - a strong religious background, faith and morals, spiritual growth in addition to intellectual growth. Both dh and I were raised Catholic, but very much our religiousness was a "Sunday" thing - not a strong faith that gave me a moral foundation (dh was more blessed in that regard). I was public school educated and quite blessed by my particular experience all through school, but rather than pay or help with college, we - as parents - are committed to paying for what we consider a strong educational and spiritual formation before we send them "out on their own" and we may or may not help with college. My hope would be that our kids could get academic scholarships and jobs to help themselves through college as both dh and I did.

Cars, no, though they'll probably have access to the family car as both dh and I did when we were teenagers. Other material extras - well, as we can allow - we are blessed with giving relatives so that helps, but it's definitely not high on the list of our priorities.

Of course, the basics: clothing, food, shelter at our expense. DH jokes about going on unemployment, but I think for us, even that would be a last resort. We are definitely financially stable, but we work hard and make sacrifices in "material" things to make that possible.

We both got our degrees before having kids or getting married. So, we both have the opportunity to work outside the home if need be, but again, our PERSONAL commitment and obligation that WE FEEL (not putting this on others) is to give our kids a stay-at-home parent. Right now, it's me, but soon we're looking to dh being a SAHD and me being the "breadwinner" - he has the ability to make more $ than I, but both of our fields access us things like benefits for the whole family in addition to life insurance, paid vacation and a 401K/retirement plan.

What else? Ah yes, LOVE! Of course, we are committed as AP type parents to give our kids lots of love, praise, a safe and trusting environment to grow up in, all those things essential to their own sense of self love and confidence. That intangible "support" so that they have the best possible chance of growing up to be secure, confident, trusting, loving, caring adults fully able to care for themselves and others.

I would also hope to give our kids opportunities in things like extracuriccular activities, hobbies, etc. I play piano and we have one that I'll "teach" them on to the best of my abilities. If they express an interest in something later on, we will do our best to support that. I'd also really like to encourage them to travel and experience diverse cultures/people. This isn't something I had when I was young. Whether it be taking advantage of study abroad opportunities or family vacations (we have European relatives) - I'd like to support that to the best of our abilities.

It's also important to us to encourage our kids in "corporal and spiritual acts of mercy" as our faith requires (for non-Catholics, this would probably fall under the category of Community Service?): things like feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, helping the poor and ill and downtrodden, etc. This again, was not a focus for my family growing up and I think this giving really gives one an appreciation for what one has. What good is giving our kids all this, if we don't in turn ask them to give of themselves as well?

So what did I come up with for a list?
Love
Support (as in emotional)
Stay-at-home Parent
Faith/Spiritual/Moral Formation (from church, school and HOME!)
Education (Catholic Primary and Secondary)
Possible financial help with Post-Secondary Education
Opportunities for Travel and Extracurricular Interests as finances allow
A Giving Nature

and of course...

The basics: food, clothing, shelter (and we're talking BASIC in that regard - we do pay more $ for organic food sometimes, but clothing-wise we're talking basic, not "name brand" - for shelter, we do live in a "nice" neighborhood, but we live in a very basic ranch - we will not be house-poor and get caught in a financial crisis b/c of it)

That's our list. Thanks for this thread, you really made me think and hopefully it will help us prioritize as we raise our daughters

[Gendenwitha]

Originally Posted by Dar

So, do you consider things like using public schools and roadways to be public assistance? Or public transportation, whic is generally subsidized? Social security retirement benefits, and medicare? Or working for a big corporation that most likely received some special benefits from the gov't - corporate welfare, which costs us far more than AFDC ever did?

Dar

I think that was directed at me?

I think I live in a community that has certain expectations of my suffiency, and as part of an assumed social contract with that community I try to use only those services as they are intended by the community--schools & public transportation, social security for all, AFDC in desperate and unexpected times.

There are a whole LOT of things that I will try and convice my community that they should provide as part of a healthy community enviornment for all--year round school, school breakfast, socialized medicine... I could go on. In the meantime I try to live within that social contract as it is intended by the majority, and work on local projects (of which my city & county has many) that try to fill in those spaces. I may think medicine should be available for all equally, but I also think it would be unfair for me to use a system set up for free emergency care as a primary health provider.

T Don't be too fast to criticize corporate welfare. In theory, keeping a large company providing more jobs so that more people stay working and you pay less in AFDC and other social programs is a good theory. (Other than it's unfair to small business.) But it's in it's practice it really gets corrupted. Saying it's more costly than AFDC isn't enough.

Saying your against corporate welfare sounds good when talking to other liberals, but talk to a conservative (rich businessman or blue-collar laborer at Boeing) and it's saying, "we would have been better off with several airlines going out of buisness after 9/11". Pointing out the link between Cheney and Haliburton and their cozy Iraq deal is a much more effective example of corporate/government corruption.

[BunnysMomma]

As parents, my husband and I have an obligation to provide our children with a home in which they can grow up loved, secure, and healthy. We also have an obligation to teach them to be responsible for their choices. I don't feel we have an obligation to give them a car, a college education, hobby lessons, or anything else (even toys, although we do give them toys--but I see toys as a perk, and sometimes even a hindrance to playing and creativity, but certainly not an obligation).

Wilma

[eilonwy]

As a parent, I feel that it is my responsibility to provide a stable, loving home for each of my children and to provide for their educations in a manner that I see fit. It's not a matter of money to me; sure, it'd be nice to buy a house, but you can buy a house when you're 50 years old and you can't necessarily have a child then. It is not my responsibility to provide extras, but to teach my children how to make do with what they have and how to prioritize their own lives, and to be happy with the decisions that they have made.

I'm not remotely worried about college; if they want to go they most assuredly will. A way will be found. I'm not worried about cars; again, if they really want them they'll have them. I grew up with even less than I have now (hard to believe, but definately true) and the only things I really missed as a child were birthday parties (I had two in my entire childhood, both given by friends) and getting to eat whatever kind of cereal I want. Most of the time, I feel like we can provide those things for our children so I'm happy with that. We couldn't have a birthday party *today*, but in a few months when BeanBean turns two, we'll make it happen.

[teachma]

I'm not sure this is directly in response to the OP, but some of the resulting discussion definitely hits on a hard issue for me. My parents were major providers for my 2 siblings and me. They bought us all cars, sent us all to college, and even financed graduate school for the 2 of us who chose to attend. I can't imagine ever being in a financial situation, even with just the two children I have now, to provide all of this. I am a teacher, and dh is an artist; simply put, we don't make tons of money. And, because I do see family as very important, we have chosen to live near our extended family, which means living in one of the more expensive parts of the US. Thus, because our tiny house was so expensive (which my parents also helped us to afford- they continue to provide for us even as adults) we lack money to do other things, like fancy birthday parties, dinner at restuarants, taking vacations. But, my dd and ds see their grandparents every day, which is much more important to me than those material things. However...I often experience guilty feelings about the thought that I will not be able to provide for them in the same ways that my parents have for us. I know they will "be fine," and they may even grow up to be more self-sufficient than I, but because my parents did what they did, I naturally feel that it's my job to do the same. Guess I'll need to get over it!

[thirtycats]

I think my obligation as a parent is to love my child unconditionally...forever and always.

Right now, it's a very easy obligation to fulfill. Might not be as easy when he's a teenager.

[Piglet68]

My first obligation is to their safety, both physically and emotionally.

Encompassed in that is all the standard roof-over-their-heads (who cares if it's rented or owned), nutritious food (doesn't have to be expensive), a childproof environment to reduce their chances of harm, and foster their natural desire to explore their world.

Also, lots of love, and lots of modelling of social behaviour. I think modelling behavior is probably one of the most critical things we do as parents. The way we interact with our spouse will teach them more about what to expect from a future mate than any number of books or therapists will ever teach them. The way we treat each other, adults and children alike, will form the foundation of their own social skills. So really, I'm obligated to be the best person I can be: best wife, best friend, best mother, best coworker, etc....

As far as college and cars....well, my parents paid for most of my education, from 12 years of catholic school to another 12 years of university. I am eternally grateful and do not abuse the privelege (I got a part time job and also some student loans to help "do my part"). While they didn't buy us cars, when there were extra ones around we were welcome to use them (with certain safety restrictions, of course).

To this day I know that my parents will always be there to help me financially if I need it...but rather than turn us into spoiled brats, my brother and I never went to them unelss it was really desperate and we had tried all ways we could to solve it ourselves. I guess there's something about knowing they will always be there that made us determined never to abuse that privilege. So IME, it seems that the attitude surrounding the giving is more important than the giving itself. I would never withhold financial help from my kids over the fear that they will be "spoiled" or "not appreciative". But if they already show signs of being that way, the money won't be as forthcoming.

If I'm in a situation to pay for college, I most certainly will. Cars will be negotiable: they won't get a new one, and it will depend on how mature they are, whether it will be used for their multiple extracurricular activities, or just going to the mall (take the bus!).

But I really consider all those monetary things to be secondary. Physical and emotional health sum it up for me.

[Gendenwitha]

Two seperate thoughts:

One, it's interesting how our upbringing doesn't seem to dictate what we DO provide for our kids as it does what we think we SHOULD provide for our kids.

Two, before I had kids, I remember saving all my grandmother's teaching stuff (1st grade) thinking I'd do so much learning stuff. In reality, I find I spend much more time, and am much more concerned with teaching him values above all else--above a good education, above him being "happy" above providing for him materially. I'd rather come up with half the money for his college in a socially responsible investment fund than all of it investing in weapons and tobacco.**

**(NOT to say that Socially Responsible Investing under-performs other stock portfolios. When I first became interested in it and the stock market was doing great I was told SRI didn't do as well, but they didn't do as poorly when things started going down. And now you look at the long-term numbers the major SRI funds actually did a bit better than the S&P 500.)

[phathui5]

"So, do you consider things like using public schools and roadways to be public assistance?"

Well, schools yes. It's free government daycare. How is that different than the government subsidizing daycare for younger kids?

[mamawanabe]

Well, public schools are not exactly free. We all pay for it (taxes). I love the idea of us all pulling our money toegther and thus doing more with it as a society than we could ever do with it individually (i.e. all the money me, dh, and our extended famileis paid in taxes our entire lives would not be enough to pay to pave the roads I've driven on). Taxes always seemed like a great bargain to me.

The pschological decision regarding which public resources are acceptable and which are somehow shameful depends on who uses them. Pell grants and subsidized college loans are fine because many in the middle class use them. WIC, public housing, and other programs are somehow not OK, somehow that is parents not living up to thier responsibilites as parents.