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Kabbalah - Page 2  

post #21 of 40
7/30/04 at 9:55am
Well, you have one person using the "runaway" emoticon right after my post and saying "sorry I asked..."
and another saying they won't talk about Kaballah here..

sooo it looks to me like my comments did, in fact, scare people off. Though I am not sure why I am now having to myself to you.

Sigh.

I don't want this thread to be about me, or my comments, or whether people are or aren't scared or threatened.. so I will just go away now.

I am sorry if my passion about Kaballah and my dislike of its becomming celebrity fodder offended anyone.
I am sorry if my words came off too strong.

I am going away now, so you don't have to worry about my being a problem anymore, I really don't want to get this thread killed.
post #22 of 40
7/30/04 at 10:03am
You are not a problem to me. If anyone else is in awe of your gnosis, well, disturb the comfortable, eh?
post #23 of 40
7/30/04 at 10:17am
Oy vey, asherah.

You're not the only person passionate about it. As a matter of fact, the poster who said she wouldn't talk about Kabbalah is probably as passionate about it as you are (knowing the Chassidic community of which she is a member, I know for a fact she is ... ) and (if she doesn't mind my speaking in her name) probably doesn't want to say anything about it because she knows her knowledge is miniscule next to Kabbalah's infiniteness (is that a word?) and doesn't want her inability to give it over properly to bring any disrespect on it ...

(If I blew that, Bina, lemme know ... )



On the other hand, there's me. Know little, yet talk lot. :LOL






Besides, asherah, I think the posters who were "so what?"ing about Kabbalah-as-celebrity-fodder were just allowing for celebrities being (in theory, anyway) people, too, with spiritual longings and needs like the rest of us ...

Perry Farrell (from Jane's Addiction) is also a celebrity who got into Kabbalah, but since his getting into it meant that he got into Orthodox Judaism, it's not quite the same publicity-wise as Madonna getting into it with what is generally considered a cult-type organization.





Am guessing that any discussion of Kabbalah would have to be rather fractured, because of the different "strains" of it ...



So what exactly is 'esoteric Qabalah'? So that the original poster might have her answer ...
post #24 of 40
7/30/04 at 10:24am
Look guys, all I am trying to do is avoid conflict or trouble in a thread. I clearly ruffled some feathers, and I just don't want to continue to do so.

My knowledge of Kaballah is also miniscule. I am not even worthy to TALK about it, really.
post #25 of 40
7/30/04 at 11:02am
Another reason why stafl should move this to Rel Studies. Feather ruffling is OK over there as long as we are respectful.
post #26 of 40
7/30/04 at 11:10am
Thread Starter 
WOW! I have been away from the thread since I started it and am surprised at all of the responses.

asherah I do not think your comments were offensive in any way. In fact, this is the way I was feeling about bringing this up, because of Madonna's involvement. But in truth, I would never have heard of Kabbalah if not for her.

So, why does it creep me out/send up red lights/want to send me running-but-I'm-curious-all-the-same about this form of spirituality just because Madonna is involved?

Hasn't she the right to be passionate and spiritual about something and use her position to talk about it?

Please understand that I am asking this to MYSELF not as a way of confronting what anyone else has said, you know?

And as far as buying the red string at Target...It cheapens the meaning of this because you know that most of the people (probably teenage girls) that buy them will have no clue (nor will they care) about the spiritual significance of it. The red string will just be a thing to wear because celebs are wearing them.

But I do remember when Madonna first came out, she caused controversy for wearing a rosary as jewelry. Although I never remember rosaries being sold at Tarjay!!!!!!!!

Having said all this, and as if the universe works in mysterious ways (which it does!) I received a brochure in the mail about Kabbalah!!!! I did not request this. I have never heard of this. Gives me chills how that happens sometimes.

Having said that, I am leery about anything that promises the answers to all the secrets of life. And that's what this brochure -- its books and materials -- promises. COMPLETE enlightenment. And that scares me.

Why?
post #27 of 40
7/30/04 at 11:12am
Thread Starter 
Just wanted to reply to my previous reply:

I said that mostly teenage girls would be buying the Red String at Target...but do teenage girls even care about Madonna? Who is her fan base these days?

Just wondering.
post #28 of 40
7/30/04 at 12:52pm
okay, okay, I moved the thread. I wasn't sure how much debate you all wanted, and if we left the thread over there, it would minimize it...you know...

I was just playing devil's advocate anyway. I hadn't heard of Madonna's interest in Jewish mysticism until I read this thread, and then it just reminded me of when the Beatles went to see that swami or yogi or whatever he was, you know. and then I got to thinking that it kind of makes sense, if you really think about it. Once someone is rich and famous, they don't spend so much energy worrying about money and mundane things and are able to focus on spiritual things instead. I know for myself, personally, that it is my worries over money and paying bills and buying food and stuff that prevents me from really studying and understanding the arcane.
post #29 of 40
7/31/04 at 2:12pm
No Asherah,
I was feeling silly because *I* was the one who made a faux pau by bringing it up in the first place. Sort of like making a comment and then leaving the room to look for something. It wasn't you!

Anyway, my excuse is brainwashing by a 7 year old who is forcing me to read her the English Roses over and over again until I think I will go mad! She woke me up this morning at 6:45 with that in her hand. But who can resist that soft little hand on your cheek asking you to "please read, Mama, please"
post #30 of 40
7/31/04 at 2:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stafl
I was just playing devil's advocate anyway. I hadn't heard of Madonna's interest in Jewish mysticism until I read this thread, and then it just reminded me of when the Beatles went to see that swami or yogi or whatever he was, you know. and then I got to thinking that it kind of makes sense, if you really think about it. Once someone is rich and famous, they don't spend so much energy worrying about money and mundane things and are able to focus on spiritual things instead. I know for myself, personally, that it is my worries over money and paying bills and buying food and stuff that prevents me from really studying and understanding the arcane.
That is a good point. I have often thought that about Oprah, who seems very enlightened. But she also has people cooking and cleaning for her around the clock, and is sleeping on 1,000.00 sets of slice of heaven sheets, so maybe it is easier to free your mind up for spiritual exploration when you have all of your eathly comforts and wants taken care of.

Merpk, thank you for the link--I found it very interesting.
post #31 of 40
7/31/04 at 2:23pm
bs"d

I just wanted to post that no one has ruffled my feathers, so, please, asherah, stick around!

Even though I am familiar with many of the concepts described in English books popularizing Jewish Kabbalah (these are the types of books I assume many people with an interest in Kabbalah are able to learn from) and discuss some of them on a daily basis, I still know that I really know NOTHING about the topic. It is an infinite topic, as merpk mentioned, and to try and talk about it in a paragraph or two on MDC would just make me look an idiot. There are so many subtleties involved, and I am lacking in many areas of Jewish knowledge, and I don't feel confident that I could put the correct spin on even the most basic of ideas we learn from hidden Torah.




As far as gaining "complete enlightenment" from studying Kabbalah....

From a tradtional Jewish perspective, these types of studies were meant to undertaken by someone who already has an in-depth knowledge of Torah and Talmud, who follows halacha (Jewish law), who is mature, etc., etc. This doesn't mean that the person who does not fit these criteria has nothing to gain from studying Kabbalah, but that gaining "enlightenment" (not a very Jewish term, BTW, I'd rather say "knowing G-d" or something similar) isn't easy. It requires a commitment that taking a workshop or buying a book can't teach.

What exactly does this brochure claim anyway? I saw one that claimed you could "control your future" using the "power of Kabbalah." Uh, yeah, everyone more or less has that power...
Anyway, I don't know what they claim Kabbalah will do for you.
post #32 of 40
8/4/04 at 12:23pm
Thread Starter 
Okay..please bear with me here as I try to get this idea out...

Something you all were saying about Madonna and Oprah not having money troubles so they can focus more on spirituality...I know what you mean with this but...isn't it US, WE who are struggling to make ends meet, etc. who are closer to God and to spirituality? But not by attending a centre or whatever, but by living our LIVES? I know it does not feel spiritual while we're robbing Peter to pay Paul but, that Bible saying, "It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than it is for a rich man to get into heaven..." applies...

I know that Elvis (please, no Elvis rips! I love the man!) was really struggling at the end of his life to come to terms with his fame and who he was and why it was him that had become so famous. He was reading a lot of spiritual books searching and searching for a faith...even though he sang lots of spirituals (gospels) he was digging deep into esoterics, etc.

This is so off of the topic about Kabbalah specifically...

I guess it should be a positive thing when a former Material Girl seeks something deeper than herself...

But I hate when people pray for others to see them praying --so to speak. Then their spirituality becomes just another self-serving vehicle.
post #33 of 40
8/4/04 at 12:46pm
Well, that's what bothers me.
It isn't that I think celebrities can't be spiritual.
But, it really taints things when you use it for PR... or blab it all over the press.

Do you remember that line Warren Beatty said about Madonna in her movie "Truth or Dare?"

He said she didn't want to live life off camera.
Everything she touches becomes part of her public persona.
It becomes merchandised.
THAT is my issue.

Most great spiritual teachers I have encountered advocate DOING not TALKING when it comes to spiritual practice.
Meditate.. don't talk about meditating.
Study, don't talk about studying.
Practice.

Because talking about something can cheapen it.
You can easily fall into feeding your ego, trying to show how freaking enlightened you are instead of doing the true work.
That is my problem with pop-culture, celebrity spirituality.

This is not to say that spiritual discussion groups are bad.. that talking with like-minded others is bad.
But you need to be sure of your motives... and come to it humble.

As for your other point.. I don't think you need to have money or go to some center to have a spiritual practice.. though there is benefit from studying with a teacher and/or reading.
You absolutely can use everyday life as spiritual practice, which is what many religions and paths recommend.

I think places that charge exhorbinant fees for "enlightenment" are questionable. And people can easily get sucked into such places, looking for easy answers, privacy and exclusivity.
post #34 of 40
8/5/04 at 9:58am
Whisper, those of us struggling to make ends meet, etc., have all sorts of challenges ... but ... as Kabbalah *does* derive from Jewish mysticism, it's kind of ironic that you bring that up here.

The camel-through-needle-v.-rich-guy-to-heaven thing is from your bible. It is *not* in any way a Jewish concept ... as a matter of relevance, Rebbe Nachman (18th century Jewish mystic and 'kabbalist' in his own right) teaches that two of the absolute holiest things G!d gave humankind are sex and money ... the absolute good that can be done with each of them, sex and money, are totally from beyond this world ... and that's why they are the most commonly misused and 'perverted,' because of our puny inability to deal with such holiness ... or to phrase it more Jewishly, because our vessels are too small to contain their incredible light.




Rich folk are people, too, and have the right to spiritually search the same way the rest of us do. Only difference is where they do it.

And asherah, the PR may not be coming from Madonna ... which is why the Kabbalah Center is considered more cult than anything else ... it's hard to take an ostensibly spiritual organization seriously when they're most serious about raising money and raising their own PR ...
post #35 of 40
8/18/04 at 3:35am
This past week's Village Voice had an interesting article about the Kabbalah Center. Just FYI.





One particularly interesting tidbit: The Kabbalah tried to actually patent the term and item "Kabbalah red string."

Guess they're hoping to sue all those little old ladies sitting near all those holy sites in Israel who are giving out the 'bindelehs' and blessings (to anyone who gives them charity ... or who just needs a brakha/blessing from a little old lady) ???
post #36 of 40
8/18/04 at 12:55pm
:Puke
post #37 of 40
8/19/04 at 1:21pm
Thread Starter 
Based on everything I have read thus far, I do not think Kabbalah is for me.

And again, with regards to Madonna and other celebs taking up this spiritual thread, it is their showiness that turns me off about it...Like, I'm not offended or turned off by Gandhi (because his life was an example of his beliefs), or Martin Luther King...but Madonna, Brittney, Demi

Sawry!
post #38 of 40
8/19/04 at 1:24pm
Thread Starter 
I would like to apologize for comparing Gandhi and Martin Luther King to celebrities.

My point was that people can be religious and vocal about their beliefs and be an inspiration.

Some people, however, can be religious (or spiritual) and vocal about their beliefs and be a turn-off.

Phoney baloney!

Even though they, themselves, may think they are the sincerest.
post #39 of 40
8/31/04 at 7:27pm

Book

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom2six
Yup!
Mom2six, I just want to say your dh wrote a great easy to read book. I lived in Seattle and about a year or so ago I wanted to learn more about Kabbalah. I happened upon his book at the local book store and picked it up. Very easy to read, I give him props on the book.
post #40 of 40
8/31/04 at 9:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MomOfCyan
Mom2six, I just want to say your dh wrote a great easy to read book. I lived in Seattle and about a year or so ago I wanted to learn more about Kabbalah. I happened upon his book at the local book store and picked it up. Very easy to read, I give him props on the book.
YAY! Dh will be so happy to get the feedback. And happy to hear that a bookstore that far from home is carrying it.
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