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I can hear her screaming as I write this..ugh - Page 3

post #41 of 109
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I'm disappointed that some of the mamas posting here are so "black and white" about this issue and not very supportive of your needs.
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I think it's good to know your limits and take care of yourself a little too. You're a better mama for it and everyone's limits are different.
post #42 of 109
When my daughter was that age she went through a sort of seperation (sp?) anxiety phase. It was very difficult for me because if I was out of her sight she would begin to cry for me and I felt very tired at times! I was not even able to go to the toilet without a baby on my lap - yes this was a funny sight Im sure...

During the day she was at my side or in my arms constantly. It became hard when this went on for days at a time and I had no time to myself at all. It was exhausting!
At night it was the same. The only way she would fall asleep is if I was either nursing her or if I was holding her or lying next to her in our bed so our bodies touched. It wasn't easy for me as my dh also worked late many nights during the week as well as weekends. 99% of the time I would fall asleep with her becasue I was so tired by that time that having time to myself after she was asleep was not even a option.

I do know how you feel. I also understand that while you are in the moment its difficult to appreciate that This Too Shall Pass - but it does.

My daughter is now 4yrs old and is an amzing, confident and well adjusted little girl. I have NO doubt that its because I was there for her whenever she needed me - even when I felt as though I had no more energy to give.

My son is now 8 months old and he is almost exactly the same as your 11 month old. He is VERY attatched to me and at night he will only go to sleep if I nurse him. I have learnt to cherish this time. My dd weaned herself when she was 2,5 yrs and by 3,5 yrs she had decided she wanted her own bedroom. I missed nursing her and having her sleep in the family bed with us. I missed watching her fall asleep and hearing her breathe as I fell asleep. I realised too late that how quicky children grow up and how lucky I was to have nursed her and share a family bed with her. I wish I had this insight during the rough times when I felt as though my energy was being sucked dry and all I wanted was a break!

Now that I see things through new eyes, I find myself honouring myself in other ways. Bathtime for me borders on the sacred and my dh knows that this is where I relax and indulge in myself. Sometimes its an elaborate affair with candles and essential oils and herbal tea and a good book. Other times its music and chocolate - but its always for me. Perhaps it may help you to choose some alternative time where you can enjoy being alone or free from having to be responsible for other people so you can recharge yourself. I honestly believe that as mothers we need to look after ourselves and give back to ourselves... but I dont believe it should ever be at the expense of our children.

Also... by the sounds of things I dont believe that you are getting any "me" time while your dh tries to put your child to sleep. It sounds as though you are stressed out and worried and feeling guilty and sad. Trust your gut mama - thats what makes us strong. We know when there isn't something right. Listen to the part of you that feels that there is something wrong and go with it.

This is NOT a dire situation in which its either this or nothing. You CAN have the time you need and your child CAN have the mama she needs. Its all about sacrifice and rearranging perceptions.

Good Luck ...
post #43 of 109
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Originally Posted by Graceoc
Do you honestly believe this? I'm totally all about AP - but that dosen't mean that a child has to be attached *only* to the mother. Fathers should have every opportuinity to share as well.
I agree with Grace. One of the major aspects Dr. Sears states about attachment parenting is "crying in the arms of someone who loves you is not the same as crying it out." He also says that if you resent something, change it. If this is something that you need to maintain balance (also an important AP principle) and to remain a happy, giving, AP mama, by all means, do what you need to be a good mama! This is tough because your dh isn't available during the week, but she will get used to being loved and attached to another parent. Attachment parenting is just that......that's why it's not called attachment mothering.
All of this was said not to offend anyone, just to show support to another stressing mama!
post #44 of 109
Now wait a second here... the OP came to this forum because she has the desire to be supported and given advice. This obviously was bothering her, else she wouldn't have written in desperation.

To attack her in her choice to try and have her DH work with the bedtime routines won't help - it may actually make it so she won't ever want to ask a question here again.

I think the thing to stress here is that we are all mothers (or soon to be mothers) who if not walked a mile in her shoe, can obviously see that there is a problem here. I can't tell you how many times I would have liked a break and if it hadn't been for the support I found here and similar forums I'm not sure if I would have made the choices I made. I have absolutely no support from my family with regard to my lifestyle and although my friends support it, they don't practice it themselves and often have no advice as to what I can do.

So, instead of slamming her for dealing with her problem in a non-AP way or even not the way you would have dealt with it, let's get some perspective and realize the original reason she posted here in the first place... and that was to get advice and help and cyber hugs.

Many of you posted that you don't have the same problem with your baby and DH or you haven't necessarily felt the driving need to escape every once in awhile. AND personally... I think this is the main reason here. She said her DH gets home quite late most nights of the week... meaning she is dealing with her child without a break on those days. She is desperate, for goodness sake, to have a break. I've been there. I have two children who went through periods clinging to me and crying mercilessly when DH even tried to hold them... not to mention the whole bedtime routine thing. Talk about NEVER having a break.

So... let's address that issue and move forward and help her with finding some time and dealing with the bedtime battle appropriately. Making her feel worse about what has happened serves no purpose.

Kay
post #45 of 109
I forgot to add.....if your gut instinct is telling you to go with your baby, follow your instinct. It IS your #1 indicator if what you're doing is right. I started night-weaning my dd last night. But I KNOW that it is the right thing to do for her, for me, for dh, and for our new baby (I'm due in April). I followed my instinct and started this process when I really felt it was right for my family. Best of luck with this difficult process! I'll be thinking of you!
post #46 of 109
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Originally Posted by gracesmom0801
One of the major aspects Dr. Sears states about attachment parenting is "crying in the arms of someone who loves you is not the same as crying it out." He also says that if you resent something, change it.
Please tell me that I'm misunderstanding you....do you honestly believe that crying until baby vomits is EVER okay???? Do you think that just b/c daddy is holding baby, that sitting by and letting her scream and wail unconsolably (when YOU have caused her distress and YOU have the key to end it?) has ANYTHING to do with Sears' message or Attachment Parenting? You really believe that expecting a baby to go cold turkey from nightnursing is in ANY WAY respectful of baby's needs? Does Sears not emphasize following baby's cues? How could baby possibly be more clear?

I'm almost at the point of tears right now that any mama on this board could think that these methods have ANYTHING to do with attachment parenting.

And, btw, I have not seen anybody flame the OP. She is not on trial here. The technique of allowing a baby to Cry-It-Out most certainly is on trial, and given the advocacy this board maintains (check out the link in my sig if you're confused) I think it is MOST important for anybody reading this thread to know that this is NOT at all attachment parenting.

And nobody yet has suggested that the OP is wrong to want some time to herself, to refresh and recharge. Nobody. We're just saying: this isn't the best way to go about getting it (and as others have pointed out, she obviously isn't getting the mental break she needs if she's worried about her baby). I have nothing but concern for the OP, as this is obviously weighing heavily on her mind, and I have made some suggestions as have others.
post #47 of 109
Thank you Piglet, I was wondering what to say after these last few posts, you said it wonderfully.
post #48 of 109
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Originally Posted by Piglet68
Please tell me that I'm misunderstanding you....do you honestly believe that crying until baby vomits is EVER okay???? Do you think that just b/c daddy is holding baby, that sitting by and letting her scream and wail unconsolably (when YOU have caused her distress and YOU have the key to end it?) has ANYTHING to do with Sears' message or Attachment Parenting? You really believe that expecting a baby to go cold turkey from nightnursing is in ANY WAY respectful of baby's needs? Does Sears not emphasize following baby's cues? How could baby possibly be more clear?

I'm almost at the point of tears right now that any mama on this board could think that these methods have ANYTHING to do with attachment parenting.

And, btw, I have not seen anybody flame the OP. She is not on trial here. The technique of allowing a baby to Cry-It-Out most certainly is on trial, and given the advocacy this board maintains (check out the link in my sig if you're confused) I think it is MOST important for anybody reading this thread to know that this is NOT at all attachment parenting.

And nobody yet has suggested that the OP is wrong to want some time to herself, to refresh and recharge. Nobody. We're just saying: this isn't the best way to go about getting it (and as others have pointed out, she obviously isn't getting the mental break she needs if she's worried about her baby). I have nothing but concern for the OP, as this is obviously weighing heavily on her mind, and I have made some suggestions as have others.
this whole post is just perfect. I would not add or delete ANYTHING to explain the way I feel.
post #49 of 109
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Originally Posted by Piglet68
Please tell me that I'm misunderstanding you....do you honestly believe that crying until baby vomits is EVER okay???? Do you think that just b/c daddy is holding baby, that sitting by and letting her scream and wail unconsolably (when YOU have caused her distress and YOU have the key to end it?) has ANYTHING to do with Sears' message or Attachment Parenting? You really believe that expecting a baby to go cold turkey from nightnursing is in ANY WAY respectful of baby's needs? Does Sears not emphasize following baby's cues? How could baby possibly be more clear?

I'm almost at the point of tears right now that any mama on this board could think that these methods have ANYTHING to do with attachment parenting.

And, btw, I have not seen anybody flame the OP. She is not on trial here. The technique of allowing a baby to Cry-It-Out most certainly is on trial, and given the advocacy this board maintains (check out the link in my sig if you're confused) I think it is MOST important for anybody reading this thread to know that this is NOT at all attachment parenting.

And nobody yet has suggested that the OP is wrong to want some time to herself, to refresh and recharge. Nobody. We're just saying: this isn't the best way to go about getting it (and as others have pointed out, she obviously isn't getting the mental break she needs if she's worried about her baby). I have nothing but concern for the OP, as this is obviously weighing heavily on her mind, and I have made some suggestions as have others.

Bears repeating once again. I've found myself in situations like that and been conflicted and I appreciate the advice Piglet has given. I recognize now why I was conflicted and will look for other ways to give me me time (unfortunately, this includes slacking off at work, as I am now doing!)
post #50 of 109
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I saw so many of my sons' peers treat their fathers as guests in their lives for years while remaining firmly attached to their mothers. I did not want that for my son.
Me too, and me neither. ITTTTTA.

I think the suggestion of putting her to bed together then gradually phasing out your presence is a great one. I also think that your goal is a good one and a reasonable one, and can indeed be accomplished. Maybe you just need to go a little more slowly.

I feel strongly about both parents being "able" to do everything, with the obvious exception of nursing. With that in mind, my husband and I have alternated putting DD to bed since she was a newborn. It is wonderful to be able to hand over bedtime "duty" at the end of a long day and to know that she is peacefully being rocked to sleep by her father. They have a very close relationship and she can pretty much be comforted by him just as well as by me. He is not just a playmate and rough-houser who hands the baby back when she cries and doesn't know how to nurture her....he is a full partner in parenting.

I feel we are building the foundation for true closeness between DD and her father in years to come. For those who seem to be saying that it's natural and right for mama always to be the comforter and nurturer...how many of you have a dad or know dads who never are on the "inside" with their kids, who can't express themselves with their kids, who are distant from them, while mom is overburdened and totally "needed out"? A lot, I bet. Is that what you want for your family?

I think many mothers, consciously or not, sort of want to be the "favorite" and the "only." It is very understandable--we give so much, and if we are SAHMs, this is our job! We want to be the best at it. And yet I think reinforcing this is not healthy--for mom, for dad, for the marriage, for the child. Not only that, IMO it is giving in to old and moldy stereotypes that do not serve us well.

As an aside, I am bothered by the way people constantly imply that crying, any crying, is terribly detrimental to a baby. Many of us have had babies who just cried, period, and to always be reading about how the crying baby's hormones are raging out of control, her physiology is in crisis, etc etc, is a real guilt-producer and not very helpful. I think it's safe to say that no one wants to hear her child cry.
post #51 of 109
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Originally Posted by loraxc
As an aside, I am bothered by the way people constantly imply that crying, any crying, is terribly detrimental to a baby. Many of us have had babies who just cried, period, and to always be reading about how the crying baby's hormones are raging out of control, her physiology is in crisis, etc etc, is a real guilt-producer and not very helpful. I think it's safe to say that no one wants to hear her child cry.

so informing formula feeding mothers of the risks of ff'ing should not be done because it is a guilt-producer? sometimes we don't want to hear the truth, but it's the truth.
post #52 of 109
The "facts" about the "damage" caused by crying are not anywhere NEAR as black and white as those about FF vs. BF.

Most FFers have a choice not to FF. Sometimes, unless we are supernatural supermoms whose perfect, noncolicky, non-high needs babies who are eternally and forever happy, never overtired, never hungry, and never overstimulated, we do not have a choice about whether our babies cry.

I am not in favor of crying, of course!...but I think to constantly imply that a crying baby= a damaged baby is very insidious.
post #53 of 109
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Originally Posted by loraxc
As an aside, I am bothered by the way people constantly imply that crying, any crying, is terribly detrimental to a baby. Many of us have had babies who just cried, period, and to always be reading about how the crying baby's hormones are raging out of control, her physiology is in crisis, etc etc, is a real guilt-producer and not very helpful. I think it's safe to say that no one wants to hear her child cry.
I know that I've said in this thread already, that inconsolable crying is MUCH different than crying that can be taken care of by mom tending to her child. Babies do get colic, babies sometimes just cry for no reason. But from what I have gathered from the OP this was not a case of inconsolable crying.

I do not think that crying=damaged child UNLESS it is crying for the sole purpose of *they'll get used to it, they'll get over*. Crying is actually good for everyone, babies and adults, but crying till they puke???? I'm just not falling for it.
post #54 of 109
I've been following this thread....

ME personally, I would not let my dd cry like that if I could help it. I would rather nurse her for a few moments and get her sleep so that we as a family could enjoy the rest of the evening, and I could get my break guilt free.

Babies cries are disturbing to the mother for a reason. They are disturbing because the mother instinct is telling the mom to take care of the baby and go meet the needs of the child. (yeah, I've read the Continuum Concept one to many times. )

But, this is not about me, and what I would do.
post #55 of 109
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Originally Posted by loraxc
The "facts" about the "damage" caused by crying are not anywhere NEAR as black and white as those about FF vs. BF.

Most FFers have a choice not to FF. Sometimes, unless we are supernatural supermoms whose perfect, noncolicky, non-high needs babies who are eternally and forever happy, never overtired, never hungry, and never overstimulated, we do not have a choice about whether our babies cry.

I am not in favor of crying, of course!...but I think to constantly imply that a crying baby= a damaged baby is very insidious.
yes, I agree. BUT I feel this particular case, is about letting the baby cry and be distressed BY CHOICE. when if the mothers held the baby, the crying would stop. When crying can be avoided, then I am all for avoiding cries. my children never cry very much at all and I am not super woman. the times they have cried, it's because there is absolutely nothing that will calm then. THEN I accept crying in arms is ok. but never will I choose to let dd or ds cry in my husband's arms when me holding them would prevent the cry. kwim?
post #56 of 109
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But, this is not about me, and what I would do.
EXACTLY!

I think it is great that there are so many of you out there who are so blessed to be able to find other ways to meet your needs - ways in which you don't have to 'choose' between your needs and your babies 'desires'. But that is not the case with the OP or many others of us.

I am against CIO - but I really, honestly do *not* see this as comparable to what I understand CIO to be....which is to leave a child alone in a room to cry until they fall asleep, with no soothing, no comforting, no nothing. THIS IS NOT WHAT SHE IS DOING!!!!

I will fully admit that this baby is crying because she would rather have mommy hold her. But you know what......sometimes mommy can't hold her! (for whatever reason, even if that means she is just too tired, stressed, overwhelmed, ect....) Why is that so hard to get over???? Are you saying that we should give our children everything they ever want just because? We are not talking about a newborn or an infant - we are talking about a 1 year old - and yes I do believe that age matters. Both because it means the mom has already put in ALOT to meet her babies needs and could possible being hitting a major burnout *and* because as baby is older she can more readily accept comfort from daddy. We can't all predict how things will be - would it have been better to gradually introduce daddy as a comforter over a long course of time? Probably....but that didn't happen and for the sake of this mother it needs to happen now!

Even Dr. Gordon has said that after age 1 crying for nightweaning is something that 'can' be done (for those of you who need to follow all the 'AP' rules...)

I really don't like the 'Almighty AP' vibe that I am getting from this thread......We (as in the people here at MDC) are all doing our best as mothers - PERIOD! This mother is going through a rough patch....and if you have never been there then I suggest you really don't know what it is like. I do think offering alternatives is a *great* idea (the idea of perhaps starting out together and then mom leaving isn't bad.....but that would have never worked with my DD - my presence *at all* if I was not holding her just made it worse....) but not at the expense of making this mom out to be evil.

So a great big to the OP - I hope you, your DH and your DD are able to work something out, it will get better - I promise!
post #57 of 109
Thank you for the kind words of support, ladies. My emotions tend to run high these days, being so PG and all. I hope I haven't hurt anybody here personally, especially the OP! (ZanZan: ). I'm just really passionate about this subject.

Now...I feel as though there are a few different issues that are getting mixed up here.

1) Should babies be only attached/dependent on their mothers? I can't argue with those who say they want DH to be equally "useful" as a parent. And I heartily agree that families where fathers play no role tend to have sons who treat their fathers as "guests in their lives"...but I would argue that having DH put baby to bed 2 nights a week is just the tip of the iceberg in resolving such an issue, don't you think?

2) Is crying always wrong? My heart goes out to mamas who dealt with colic and other conditions that left them with a truly inconsolable baby. This is most certainly NOT the same thing as CIO, which is willful creation of the situation.

3) Should a DH be able to put baby to sleep? Well, as loraxc described, my DH did all aspects of childcare from day one, except nursing, though there were times when DD could only be consoled by me, and than he handed her over. Still, he did as much rocking/dancing to sleep as I did. I ended up taking over when laying down and nightnursing became part of our routine, and now DD would not be able to go to sleep with just DH. However, she is 2 years old, and we are planning a "role reversal" for when I am SAHM and DH is WOH. This will be accomplished slowly and gently as a gradual transition over time, as others here have described, and she is definitely old enough to understand what's happening.

4) Should mommies get "me" time? Absolutely! I haven't seen anybody here claim the OP has no right to feel the way she does, nor that she is undeserving of a break!

It seems to me that these issues are being confused with the technique of CIO. They are mutually exclusive, and there are solutions to all of them that don't involve traumatizing both mama and baby.
post #58 of 109
Piglet -

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3) Should a DH be able to put baby to sleep? Well, as loraxc described, my DH did all aspects of childcare from day one, except nursing, though there were times when DD could only be consoled by me, and than he handed her over. Still, he did as much rocking/dancing to sleep as I did. I ended up taking over when laying down and nightnursing became part of our routine, and now DD would not be able to go to sleep with just DH. However, she is 2 years old, and we are planning a "role reversal" for when I am SAHM and DH is WOH. This will be accomplished slowly and gently as a gradual transition over time, as others here have described, and she is definitely old enough to understand what's happening.
I think the reason your posts have hit such a cord with me is because obvisoulsy you have *not* been in the same situation as the OP. You are blessed to have a DH that is around ALOT and able to help out and do all those other things to establish a bond. From what the OP said her DH does not have those opportuinites available to him. He works late and often and this is one of the *few* times he is around to help - and she needs to be able to take advantage of the help when it is there.
post #59 of 109
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Originally Posted by Graceoc
your needs and your babies 'desires'.
I think you've got this statement turned around. It is the baby's needs and the mom's desires. As adults we are the ones have to make sacrifices because we can more easily intellectualize and understand why something is happening. A child has a limited ability to do this. There is also a huge difference between giving a baby/child everything she wants and giving that same baby/child all the love, comfort and attention she needs.

A 1yo is still a baby and I would not expect her to understand that Mom just needs a break so Dad is taking over for now. She may learn that Daddy can love and care for and comfort her, which is wonderful, but she may also be learning that Mom will not be there when she is needed. Why does attachment to Dad have to be at the expense of attachment to Mom? There has got to be a better way.
post #60 of 109
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I think you've got this statement turned around. It is the baby's needs and the mom's desires. As adults we are the ones have to make sacrifices because we can more easily intellectualize and understand why something is happening. A child has a limited ability to do this. There is also a huge difference between giving a baby/child everything she wants and giving that same baby/child all the love, comfort and attention she needs.
No, actually I worded it that way for a reason. The babies 'need' is for 'all the love, comfort and attention she needs' her desire is for her mother to provide that for her rather then her father. I can't speak for the OP - but I for one can not contiue to 'sacrifice' with no reprieve.

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but she may also be learning that Mom will not be there when she is needed
Again I can't speak for the OP but I am there for my baby all day as a SAHM and all night as a co-sleeping, night nursing mom - I highly doubt that one hour a day - spent with the only other person who loves her as much as I do doing everything they can to sooth her - is going to ruin that attachment. And if it does, then I don't even know why I bother with AP...I might as well throw her in daycare all day and sit and eat bon bons....
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