I can hear her screaming as I write this..ugh - Page 5

[loving-my-babies]

before ds was born I was a WOHM! we had to take dd to daycare too, so that's why I remember we HAD TO put her to bed early so she could get the sleep she needed. it was tough! but now, it's great that they can sleep in. (and ironically enough, she begs to go to school now and play with her friends.. urgg)

[eminer]

Right -- the point of natural sleep patterns is that they work by definition. If a kid stays up until his parents go to bed, then has to get up early for daycare and is tired, he'll nap. Or he'll sleep earlier the next night. He won't learn that sleep is for particular, clock-defined times, whether he is tired or not.

This thread is really running the entire gamut of sleep-related issues. :-)

[heartmama]

Not much that hasn't already been said.

I just want to add two thoughts:

1) With a little thought I am sure you could find some scenario in which she happily accepts dh briefly after he gets home, for example, if he reads to her or plays a quiet game or sings, to give you a little break before you put her to sleep.

2)Assuming she won't accept him for her actual falling asleep time, then after you put her to sleep, let dh do something for you. Maybe make you a cup of tea, or a foot massage, some way of "helping you to help her".

[loving-my-babies]

Originally Posted by heartmama

let dh do something for you. Maybe make you a cup of tea, or a foot massage, some way of "helping you to help her".

this is what we do. I nurse ds to sleep, BUT dh brings me juice or water upon request, will massage my back if I ask him, and will pretty much do anything I say because I do most of the work with ds so he tries to help me help ds.

[loving-my-babies]

I also wanted to share with you two very interesting articles that might help..

http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/separation.html

http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/li...n_palmer2.html

[Graceoc]

While I agree with natural sleep patterns to a degree...I do think it depends on your child and your family. I am a SAHM - but I do have a bedtime for my kids.

With DS we are pretty strict with it - because we have found that we are not he is a BEAR to deal with the next day. He is one that *NEEDS* a routine and for somone to enforce it since he can't fully understand the ramifications of not following it. Although he sometimes argues at the moment it is time to go to sleep - by the time we are in his room he is totally fine and ready to sleep. If we did not initiate the 'bedtime' he would be more then happy to stay up and play all night - no matter how tired he was, then would 'freak out' due to be overly tired and then fight himself to sleep. When he sticts to his bedtime schedule he is alseep (happily!) within 15 minutes and sleeps 12 hours. He sleep everynight from 7-7!

DD OTOH has no routine to her sleep - and we are pretty flexible with her. For her it is the 'amount' of sleep - rather then when she sleeps. So if she wakes early and naps early or for a short time then she will go to bed early. If she sleeps late or takes a longer then usual nap then she tends to stay up late (later then I really care for her too) To, some degree I try and regulate that to fit within an acceptable parameter for our family by waking her up earlier or not letting her nap for 3 hours in the afternoon...she does ok with these things and we are all happier for it. But her bedtime still varies between 8-11 pm.....but we are working on it........

[CartersMomma]

I think its okay to feel like being 100% responsible for bedtime sucks sometimes. It can seem like the years drag on and on, but really they don't. They will be gone in an instant! really! You have to do what you feel is best, but my advice would be to go to your babe and stop the crying. And let dh baby you, I like that idea a lot!

[JessicaS]

My own dh works late several nights a week and we had this exact problem. It drove me FREAKING NUTS!!!!

I would get great advice like "Oh, have dadddy start a bedtime routine ie stories...baths...fun!" which is really great advice but it is REALLY hard to establish a routine of it when they can only do so a few nights a week..and that makes it less likely to work.

Maybe make it uber fun daddy baby time? Abi likes to play "Pirate" with her dad (yeah, she is the pirate) or "dragon (dh is apparently the dragon as he is slayed ) they play wrestle or just watch stargate (omg I let her watch that?)
and I would sit and read or go and take a bath while they romped. Maybe start it a little earlier than bed time so they aren't worn out completely to hysteria.

I dunno..it is hard to say what will work for each kid but random "bed time go to daddy" does NOT work. Believe me I have been through that one...totally does not work. Books and baths are always great as well...maybe he can spend and hour or so with child while you relax then put them to bed.

Dh never actually put my child to bed until I went back to work a couple of nights a week (no kidding) did I mention it drove me nuts?? s



I hope you find something that works out for you...

[gracesmom0801]

After much thought and prayer about this, I must apologize for freaking out because of what piglet said. I have been hormonal. When she said "Tell me I'm misunderstanding you"..... she was. That's all this was is a misunderstanding. I tend to let my mama bear come out when I feel like someone is "attacking" (for lack of a better word) my mothering skills. I work hard to be the best mom in the world to Grace so I guess it's a touchy subject. BTW, the second night of our gradual night-weaning went GREAT!!! No crying, lots of cuddling.
I love you mamas and don't want you to be upset if I stick my foot in my mouth sometimes!

[Piglet68]

Gracesmom0801...Thank you for that last post. I honestly was NOT...repeat NOT... referring to *your* nightweaning (actually I had no idea you were nightweaning - we are too, btw, and it's also been very gentle and positive) or your parenting. And I'm afraid you'll have to stand in line behind me for being the best at doing this --->

ZanZan: I'm so happy reading your last post. And let me tell you mama: I've been very close to where you were when you wrote that OP. When DD was very young, about 2 or 3 months old, DH was getting a bit insecure about the fact that she was comforted more readily by me than by him. He knew in his mind that this was normal and natural and that, before we knew it, DD would be a toddler wanting nothing but "DADDY!!"...but his heart was getting impatient. So one night when DD began to fuss he told me to "let him try". It went against everything I believed in, but I felt bad for DH that he was feeling so "rejected" by her. I sat downstairs listening to her wailing and crying escalate further and further. I counted 15 minutes of sheer torture for me, before I gave up and "rescued" her. I even posted a thread here while I was waiting...and the mamas here told me what they are telling you: this is not right! listen to your gut! listen to your mama instinct!. We never, ever did that again, and frankly even DH was a basket-case by the time I "rescued" them, and decided "never again". I can assure you this had no effect whatsoever on their attachment. Children go through natural stages where they want you more than Daddy and vice versa. I honestly believe that you cannot "force" attachment by CIO. That's just the antithesis of the whole concept. I agree with everyone who said fathers need to be involved, but make transitions gradual, take baby steps. Follow baby's cues, follow your heart, your instinct!

I also wanted to relate one more thing along the lines of some other people's posts:

I've been having alot of nipple pain nursing this late in my PG and nightnursing was becoming very unpleasant for me. Well, a couple of nights ago I was lying in bed with DD nursing her, grimacing...and all of a sudden I was struck by this thought that just pierced right into my heart - I looked at her tiny 2 year old body, her feet tucked into my lap, her hand resting on my breast, and I realized that in no time at all this child would be gone forever...my little 2 year old nursling will be an older child with her own room, her own friends, her own activities, and she will not need me at night anymore. This time we have is SO fleeting, and our children will never be at the stage they are right now, ever again. Maybe I was just having a hormonal moment, but the tears began to well up in my eyes (as they are doing right now as I write this). I wanted to freeze time right then and there, beg her not to grow up so fast...and from that moment onwards I have cherished every night with her, even when my nipples hurt, and even when it takes her a long time to nurse down....If you believe in God, maybe that was a message. This too shall pass....

Good luck to you and your baby.

[MarineWife]

I also allow my baby, who is almost 7 months old, to follow his natural sleep pattern. I talked to so many parents who went through all kinds of hell to get their babies on a schedule. It just sounded so awful for everyone. I just relaxed and allowed my baby to do what he needed and, wouldn't ya know it, he basically fell into the "normal" patterns that I read about in the baby books. I understand that I am relatively lucky because I am a SAHM and my baby is very easy going. However, even if you need to put your baby to sleep by a certain time, I think there are so many better ways of doing it than allowing baby to cry when you know that all she wants is the comfort of mom or dad.

Like the father added to this thread, sorry I can't remember your name, you can alternate trying everything you can think of to calm and soothe baby when you don't know what they need. It can get exhausting and overwhelming but that's what we sign up for when we choose to have children.

Children don't choose or ask to be born. Adults choose to have children. That's why adults have to be the ones to make the sacrifices.

That's not exactly what started out trying to say but I got interrupted and then lost my train of thought. Oh well.

[Piglet68]

a little OT but I just wanted to say, MarineWife, that I've really enjoyed your posts on this thread.

[ZanZansMommy]

Again many thanks to all of you for such insight into this matter. I never ever imagined that my post would lead to such a long & lengthy discussion. For now Dh & I have decided that I will continue to be the primary person to help DD get to sleep. BTW, I do read her cues & I only help her to go to sleep when she shows me she's ready. Every night it pretty much varies, on when she's ready. That being said it can still take her an hour+ to calm her down down-- that's just her.

So to help myself when these times get trying, DD & I got out some posterboard & I wrote down several passages to help keep me from going "This too shall pass" "Each Day with DD is a gift--cherish it because you can never get it back" "Life is precious & you created this life" The poster board is even more special because DD colored all over it . I have it hanging in our bedroom so I have the constant reminder. It has helped A LOT. Not to mention, I now tell DH (via the monitor) what type of pampering I expect once DD is asleep. ---tea, massage, drawing me a bath, glass of wine---whatever. Lets hope this works for awhile. Again many Thanks!

[Overproducktion]

Good for you!!

[wemoon]

Yay! I'm so glad to hear about these awesome moves you have made!

Blessed Be, Mama!

[Kincaid]

Originally Posted by Piglet68

Please tell me that I'm misunderstanding you....do you honestly believe that crying until baby vomits is EVER okay???? Do you think that just b/c daddy is holding baby, that sitting by and letting her scream and wail unconsolably (when YOU have caused her distress and YOU have the key to end it?) has ANYTHING to do with Sears' message or Attachment Parenting? You really believe that expecting a baby to go cold turkey from nightnursing is in ANY WAY respectful of baby's needs? Does Sears not emphasize following baby's cues? How could baby possibly be more clear?

I'm almost at the point of tears right now that any mama on this board could think that these methods have ANYTHING to do with attachment parenting.

And, btw, I have not seen anybody flame the OP. She is not on trial here. The technique of allowing a baby to Cry-It-Out most certainly is on trial, and given the advocacy this board maintains (check out the link in my sig if you're confused) I think it is MOST important for anybody reading this thread to know that this is NOT at all attachment parenting.

Whew. This really bothers me. It seems so attacking on the O.P. Sticking a hugs emoticon onto the end does not dampen the screeching "this is not AP! you are doing the wrong thing!" tone to it.

Okay, I want to quote Sears Nighttime Parenting, there are lots of references to this situation but I want to quote directly from page 106 in the section called "Father Nursing":
"Letting dad take over may be necessary if the mother can no longer cope well... This solution can be difficult for a sensitive, attached mother to accept but she should remember that having dad comfort the baby is not the same as 'letting him cry'. Crying in the arms of a familiar, well loved parent is not the same as being left alone behind the bars of a crib to "cry it out." Dad will need to be patient as his little one learns to accept this new way of being soothed. The payoff is that the child will learn that he can depend on father as well as mother to care for his needs."

At other chapters in the book, such as the chapter called "Nighttime Fathering", Sears points out how when dad is at work all day that it is even more important to transition him as the person responsible for bed-times. Sears admits this is not easy, but says it is important for the sanity of the mom (who deals with baby all day) and for the bond with dad.

I think the moderator who is insisting that what the O.P. is doing is "against the advocacy that this board maintains" and that this is "NOT at all attachment parenting" needs to take a deep calming breath. I think honey you are going off a little too much on the OP, and you are making statements that may hold true for you but clearly Sears himself sees this differently. Piglet, you might have a good argument against Sears himself on this scenario, but I would strongly urge everyone (especially those in a moderator role) to be careful in getting hot and emotional and crying and insisting on what is "NOT A.P."

This momma obviously had two conflicting instincts... something told her she should let dad step up his nighttime parenting role and that baby crying in dad's arms is not the same as CIO (which jives with what Sears is saying in print)... but on the other hand she *hurts* when baby cries. She came to this board for support, not what-your-doing-is-NOT-AP rants. I am really disappointed by this thread and it seems like this is happening a lot. We should be careful with our authority when someone is in distress.

editing trying to make the quote look like a quote, LOL

[wemoon]

Ummm, well to me it looked like the OP decided that the thoughts and advice given in this thread was worth a shot. And just because some guy named Sears wrote that in a book doesn't mean I believe it.

This link was shared with me tonight, I thought it was a wonderful article: http://www.aolff.org/myth.htm

[MarineWife]

Good for you, Lola. I'm glad you've been able to find some alternatives.

Piglet68, Thanks so much. I have enjoyed your posts, too. I had started to feel like I was the only one here who disagreed with this method.

To address the issue about not being supportive of the OP, support does not always mean agreement. The point of this website is to discuss and learn about AP. No one will get anywhere if we pussyfoot around things and avoid the truth for fear it might upset someone. We are supporting the OP in her quest for finding the right solution to the problem she is having. I'd rather have that kind of support even if someone tells me I'm wrong than have everyone tell me what I'm doing is ok just so my feelings won't get hurt.

[Kincaid]

"avoid the truth for fear that it might upset someone":

I am only pointing out the danger in acting as if there is only one "TRUTH." We must realize when we are overly vehement that our truth may not be someone else's....and that what is considered the "right" solution for one may not be someone else's.


"And just because some guy named Sears wrote it in a book":

I thought it important to accurately represent what Sears did in fact write, since people were using "this is against Sears and what AP stands for" as part of their critique.

Nighttime Parenting suggests that mom leaves the house to not hear baby's cries when dad takes on the nighttime role. You may not agree with Sears on this, which is fine and great, but don't tell someone she is against what Sears stands for when in reality he has published exactly what she is doing.

BTW, Sears suggests that because this is so heart-wrenching that mom should leave the house for a little break, till Dad gets baby used to nighttime routine. He also suggests Dad can take baby out driving in the car. And Sears goes on and on about how important this is to the mother, this ability to get some personal time in the evening (and for dad to get time with baby).... many of the posts seem to criticize the O.P. for being selfish for even wanting that little break.

Anyway, just pointing out this *IS* a Sears technique.

[artgirl]

I've been pretty quiet here but I'd just like to point out that although support may not always mean agreement there are *supportive* and *non-supportive* ways to voice your disagreement. I think some of the language on this board has been very inflammatory, judgemental and condemning and it upsets me. Maybe just watch how you phrase things a little. You can voice your dissenting opinion without smashing someone over the head with it and making them feel inferior. I think people posting want honest answers but not to be made to feel like they are horrible mothers. No one here is perfect but it seems that there are a few who forget that they aren't.