UC Thread #8, August '04 - Page 6

[cottonwood]

Mamajaza, it's been the same for me -- I've been really really surprised at how nonchalant and even admiring people have been after the fact.

Nikirj, I agree about the absurdity of breaking these things down into distinct parts. In reality, it's an ever-changing continuum. I'm thinking it's done that way because it makes it more convenient to keep records if you can use generally accepted labels to refer to things.

[Evergreen]

Originally Posted by *Mamajaza*

I just want to say on the topic of doctors "delivering" you, I phoned a public health nurse because I was paranoid about my baby gaining weight, and she asked me "Who delivered you?" and I said "I delivered myself!":LOL

:LOL I say that anyway, even though my midwife did catch Dylan. I hate the term "delviered".

[sprinkle pocket]

mamajaza~ that's funny!! i heard of a woman (in the 50's?) who wrote 'god' when it asked for who delivered on the bc form. :LOL oh, those sassy women of the 50's!

i told one woman that dh and i are planning a freebirth. she asked, well who will deliver the baby?! uhhh, duh! regardless of how packed or empty the room is, I WILL deliver my baby!

[gr8fulmom]

What an interesting discussion! I am fascinated by looking at birth from an animal/pure biological persepctive. I studied ecology in university (many moons ago :LOL) and have always thought on birth within this context. Reproduction and birth is THE driving force of biology and evolution...it is the most important thing for any species to 'perfect'... It makes sense that any trait that improves reproduction will increase in the population as these individuals will have more babies and these babies are likely to have this trait (genetic or environmental). Since there are many billion of us on this planet...I have always made the assumption that humans are pretty good at this process until doctors got overinvolved and starting interfering with that which is largely perfect. That said...I looked at m/s within this perspective as a protective mechanism...mild nausea and adversion to certain foods, smells etc. may be protective...steering women away from potentially harmful substances and focussing them on healthy eating and living...lots of fresh air etc. This certainly works in modern society...I know I am replused and steer clear of many processed foods, toxic smells, cigarette smoke etc. even more than I try to otherwise The idea that full blown vomitting may be a type of clensing process is interesting...but I agree it is hard to reconcile that with how women would have been able to get by in acient societies while being so sick for a trimester or more...it would be interesting to research very old references to m/s.

I agree that a long transition stage is likely fear induced...the women is past the point of turning back (fear based adreniline in early labour can halt or stall a labour which is clearly a protective mechanism...in case birth needs to be stopped or halted due to an unexpected danger...e.g. a predator...) and her body forces her to go forward even if she refuses to release. I had very short transition stages with all my births...although I was aware of the change in the way the contractions felt and the sudden NEED to push. But in each case transition was a few minutes of moments...and I pushed for 20 minutes with my first the only 3 minutes with each of my other two. I hate the whole idea of needing to know how dilated you are so that you are 'allowed' to push...I read a good section in Birthing From Within about this...basically the whole worry is that you will swell your cervix, but this almost? never happens with instinctual pushing...only with attendant coached push push pushing...with my second midwife atttended hb I had a cervical lip and they wanted me to try to do things to get rid of it before I pushed...all of which hurt more than labour! but I had no urge to push at that point...then I did have an urge to push and still had the cervical lip and easily pushed his head past it... with my last birth I had asked for no ve's and said I had no interest in knowing how dilated I was...I would push when ready...luckily they never showed up anyway but I digress...

must go :tandem!

Jen

[sprinkle pocket]

gr8fulmom~ good thoughts! thanks for sharing them.

as for the m/s in ancient societies, my *guess*, is that it was uncommon if not unheard of (just my guess, mind you). they ate whole unprocessed foods that generally were seasonal. i believe they tended to be active, healthy, birth instinctually, and live surrounded by others working/living communally, or else they died, right? i mean i know that's a huge generalization, but it seems that all the tribal cultures that whites have come upon and dominated seemed healthy to the outsiders until the outsiders brought their ways that didn't match the new place they'd come to. this is all postulation; i don't have any books in front of me.

that's interesting about the cervical lip. my friend had that with both her births and both midwives (diff for each birth) held it back. dh and i were the *support friends* and they 1st birth and i remember clearly how painful it was as the midwife insisted it needed to be held back. it's good to hear of people doing the *impossible*.

as for the cervical swelling. i agree that instinctual birthing wouldn't lend itself to this situation. but even if it did happen, a dose or 2 of arnica takes care of it from what i hear.

[nikirj]

A quick search about the subject of morning sickness resulted in several references in ancient roman texts, and one reference in a chinese text about using ginger as treatment. So apparently it existed then as well. I also found an interesting study here: http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/mornsick.htm

[Kundalini-Mama]

You see, I don't get this whole m/s discussion.

Before I got pregnant, I was an excellent eater. I was raw for a time, and I didn't eat *any* processed food. This is b/c my son was allergic to over 30 different foods, including corn, which is in everything. Everything I made was from scratch. I ate only whole (non-gluten) grains, and lots and lots of organic produce, mainly veggies, mainly leafy greens. I was so psyched to get pregnant. I knew that I had done everything right, and I would not get any m/s.

Well, at 6 weeks, m/s knocked me out on my ass and hung around until I was at about 12 weeks. All I wanted to eat was tuna fish. I still have problems w/kale, and I ate that daily--raw. I still have to force myself to eat food, all I want is crap and more crap. (We went to a homeopath and my son has been cleared of all his food allergies, excluding dairy).

So, in my case, I don't buy it at all. I really don't. I know that ancedotal data does not make evidence. But, I ate better than anyone I know. I had detoxed some time ago and was just enjoying feeling great and eating so well.

My 2 cents.

Amy

[sprinkle pocket]

amy~ good point.

the only thing i can think of is that most of us haven't eaten/lived this well our whole life, been non-vaxed/no chemical medications/antibiotics and lived in car/industry-free spaces (actually as i understand the explanation of weather patterns carrying environmental toxins, noone does now). but besides that, toxins aren't just physical. we all carry emotional baggage in our life on some level, in some form; we all feel toxic emotions, we all have toxic thoughts or are the object of toxic thoughts. i have a friend who has eaten whole foods/raw for YEARS. she's used alternative healing methods proactively and is the picture of vitality. one day, she passed a long worm. just like that. no symptoms, no illnesses. who knows why we hold the things we do, except that the body is perfectly designed to protect us from the things we can't process right away, whether they be physical substances, or emotional/mental.

also, i don't believe that 'detoxing' is a one time thing. i think is a lifelong process.

and besides that, there are always exceptions to the *rules*. not that anything i'm wondering about outloud here is any kind of rule. i'm just thinking about it all and loving getting other opinions.

i've released physical things from my body that i know for a fact are in excess of 20yrs old. the body is an amazing tool.

amy, do you have any thoughts as to why you had m/s? i'd love it if you'd share them, if you do.

i'm glad to be getting this feedback! thanks!

[gr8fulmom]

more on m/s

well remember that from an evolutionary perspective everything does not have to be useful to be selected for... for example, it can be linked to something else that is needed (there are many examples of this like the malaria resistance - sickle cell anemia gene connection)...so perhaps m/s is not good in and of itself but is a necessary tradeoff for something else...e.g., maybe the hormonal changes which are clearly necessary cause nausea in even the healthiest women and so the tradeoff is m/s to get necessary hormones??? later adversion to 'bad' things could become a good thing that came out of this tradeoff... it reminds me of the best answer I ever heard about why newborns are not born with 'enough' vitamin k in which it was explained as a tradeoff situation...but I must go :tandem again! I'll write more on the vitamin K later if anyone is interested?

Jen

[sprinkle pocket]

wow, niki, interesting study, huh? can't argue with survival of the fittest, can we. while reading that, i was thinking about how many of us consider giving birth to a baby a choice we intrinsically have. however, that article reminded me that it's not really up to us if a soul is to enter through us. in nature, not all animals get pregnant, not all fetuses survive pregnancy, and pregnancy doesn't occur just b/c we want it to, when we want it to. (i know, that deserves a ) but you know, nature in her wisdom balances everything. that's a pretty interesting article, though. food for thought. thanks.

[sprinkle pocket]

yeah jen, definitely write more!

[madrone]

I have a question for you all. This evening, Simonee and our families were sitting at the table trying to decide what to do tomorrow about the doctors that we just avoided today by not answering the phone. They all thought that I should go do a self-vaginal exam to help me decide what to do. I lost my mucous plug yesterday. When I examined myself tonight, it felt much different from my other self-exams during the past year or so. Normally, I feel a roundish shape with a small hole or dot in the center. Tonight, I felt what feels like a rim or lip. Imagine smiling with your mouth open and feeling the corner of your lip. I could easily fit two fingers in the opening, which the two fingers measure about 2 3/4 cm. But I didn't feel around very much because touching there doesn't feel very good. I only felt the one side and didn't search for the rest. Also didn't try to feel anything deeper. I never did a self-exam with DS and discovered the first time I had someone do an exam with him that I was going to refuse them from then on out. I'm hoping that one of you would be able to tell me if what I am feeling sounds right in being a partially dialated cervix. If what I am feeling is that I have dialated some, that really tells us what we'll be doing tomorrow. Someone I know didn't manage to leave her 2nd NST because she was too dialated.

TIA for anyone who can help me with this. And the conversation has been very interesting. Maybe I'll join in once I stop obsessing about the doctors and when this baby is going to come.

[sprinkle pocket]

ohhh, madrone! sending you an extra couple doses of gentle birthing. :
i don't know the answer, but it sounds like what you're thinking is what's starting. have you xposted in the birth/pregnancy (whatever it's called) forum too, just in case they can answer you faster? i'm sure you're chomping on the bit waiting for someone who knows to respond!
best wishes to you!

[cottonwood]

Madrone, you should PM Pamamidwife and see what she has to say about it. It certainly does sound, though, as if your body is gearing up to give birth. Who knows how long it's going to take, but something is happening.

[FowlMommy]

N/t

[gr8fulmom]

Good luck Madrone!!!

more thoughts on m/s...it is an interesting article but it leaves many unanswered questions and unexplained points...I was unable to find the full journal article online...you have to remember that evolution is NOT really survival of the fittest...its really who can pass on the most genes (usually by having the most children who have the most children etc.) that is why reproduction itself is such a driving force in evolution...i.e., if something effects reproduction negatively it would be strongly selected against (because these individuals would have less babies and therefore pass on less genes) and the population would lose the genes for this trait over time. UNLESS it is linked to something that is REALLY good (as in the case with sickle cell anemia which I mentioned before, a nasty disease but it is linked to the gene that confers malaria resistance which is an even nastier disease) or if it there are times when it would be advantageous...so for m/s lets say that usually (according to the article) it would be a negative trait, which causes late miscarriages and low birth weights etc. in women living in the third world who have marginal nutrition (similar to older socieities?) it would be selected against because more babies would be born to women without m/s and over time the gene pool for no m/s would increase in the population BUT what if every so often it helped!! Like the society was exposed to a toxic substance in their food or water (possible even a long timer ago thry natural occurences) and these women with m/s ate less or vomitted it or whatever...maybe then m/s would get selected for because their babies would do better...and even if this occured only occasionly it could easily be enough to maintain these genes in the population...I hope i am explaining this welll also NAK so excuse any typos

more later

Jen

[sprinkle pocket]

janet~ about your question (that showed up in my email, but as 'n/t' on the board?)
the best dh and i have come up with is telling everyone who isn't to know about the uc: "we've decided to not discuss our prenatal and birth plans." plain and simple. and to make sure we feel confident when we say it, so there's not room for more comments/questions or for the speculation to begin.

i don't consider it anyone's business but ours, unless we choose to share it. it's noone's god-given right to know, even though some people are arrogent enough to feel that way. if people ask why we made the decision to not share, we have different answers, anywhere from, 'b/c that's the decision we've made', to 'we don't expect everyone to understand the decisions we make for our lives, but we would hope people would respect our right as adults to make our own decisions' (this one would really challenge mil, she thinks we're quite stupid when we don't make decisions to her liking). also, 'we realize there are alot of differing ideas about preg/birth and many people even carry fear of birth and don't care to get into discussions about it', or 'we'd like to enjoy a quiet, peaceful pregnancy, and know that regardless of the decision we make, we can't make everyone happy, so we've decided to keep it to ourselves.' we thought about saying that we would be keeping it to ourselves until after the birth, but then next time we get preg, they'll know about uc and torture us with their fears/worry. it's our 1st birth, but in your case, you really could say, 'look what we were put through last time, we choose to not allow that to happen again' (i'm so sorry that you went through that!) but saying that may be just enough to open the door for them to let it fly again. ultimately, dh and i know who to tell and not tell. i've even forwarned my mom to not tell mil if she asks, and to tell me she asked so i can confront her on it. i really want to help her get her boundaries in check before the babe is here, so it doesn't affect her relationship with the babe.

a couple switches we've had in attitude that have helped our mindset about it: we don't see it as being a secret, but just a matter of our privacy. also, we don't see it as a competition of who finds out and who doesn't, it's a matter of sharing what feels right for us. this is about us, not them.

hth!

interesting thoughts jen. this is cool.

[TinyBabyBean]

Hypnobaby/UC birth vibes please

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I think tonight is my birthing time and for some reason all this
stress is surfacing. I am going to go do my fear release tape again.
The baby is not exactly head down facing my back I don't think. More
like in my hip and to the side. I am feeling a lot of back pressure
with the tightenings. I don't want this fear and would love to have
some positive energy sent my way. I feel I do deserve a fast, easy
and comfortable birthing. There is only pressure I am feeling- but
the stress and fear is very real. I want to release it. Please send
me some good energy and positive birth vibes if you can. This would be my third UC. Why do I think I can't do this???
Very appreciative,

Leslie

[sprinkle pocket]

leslie~~~~~~gentle birthing vibes to you mama. you can do this. your body has the wisdom it needs to accomplish this. your worries don't matter, your mind can step aside. your body has this one under control. release and open...it's all there. your baby, too, has the wisdom to assist with this process. you could let the baby know that as you remember the strength you carry inside to face this, so can she/he face this head on. she/he will come out just fine.

i hope you don't mind...just a reminder, maybe to remind you of your innate strength and abilities, or to remind you of the headset you've had...quote:"My first unassisted birth was transverse. At the very end of her birth right before my urges to push she just flipped and went head down. My DH and I both saw the shape of my stomach change. It happened really, really fast! Made me catch my breath! She was born soon after. Weighed 10 lbs 8 oz
I used to feel the hiccups over in my right side where her head was. That is a good indicator of where baby's head is. With this one I feel them all right down low. Straight down. If she hadn't turned I would have had DH reach in and turn her. But, really I had full faith that she would come out the right way. I had communicated to her during the pregnancy that she could be in any position the entire time of pregnancy and birthing but needed to be head down to come out. She listened. Another cool thing is she was born on the day I asked her to. She is still very intuitive and sensitive.
I think your baby and body will work together to make things go ok. Just ask your baby. I find that the baby feels apart of my own consciousness while in utero and it is very easy to send them thoughts and get thoughts back from them."

there have been a couple links in the last week to birth affirmations, maybe they would lead you where you want to go? one was there after clicking on a link for belly pics.

best of luck...dream sweet soft opening dreams, your babe will soon be in your arms, nursing...

[3_opihi]

Tinybabybean---

You can do this
You are strong
Your baby is strong

I can't offer much in the way of eloquent words, but when
I had my son I just kept thinking, whatever happens, happens. My body will birth this baby. I just kept thinking that over and over. The fear is natural, and it shows that your body is working, it's good that you are talking about it.

I'm with ya. I'm sending you lots of labor and momma vibes.