Vaginal elitism?

[stretchmark]

Hi all, I haven't made it to this forum since ds birth 5 months ago today. Things have been hard and busy.
Anyways, I am still not ready to write my birth story which was a beautiful amazing experience-even though it was a c-section!
I just read something that said, "c-section is not giving birth, it is having birth taken away from you". I felt like choking. I felt sad. While I am sure "birth experiences" can be taken away to some degree, nothing about my birth was compromised. I have a unicornuate uterus and had a c/b at 26 weeks to save dd life. Then I had another one at 36 weeks.

Was it not birth because they came through my stomach instead of my vagina?

Are they still not born? :

So why am I irked? Because it is hard enough not being able to birth vaginally and I think it is this kind of attitude that makes cesareaN BIRTHING mamas feel bad, like they missed something. We aren't some other non-birthing breed. We did give birth. We endured a of pain and discomfort. We had to be strong too.

If I learned one thing in the past many months it is this:BIRTH IS BEAUTIFUL AND AMAZING NO MATTER WHICH HOLE MY BABY CAME FROM!

[penny31]

Grrr... I just read the same thing in someone's signature. OUCH.

I am thrilled to have a happy and healthy 21 month old through first the miracle of IVF and then through the miracle of c-section. I would have loved a natural birth and conception but in my mind the end justifies the means and this end was worth it all!

Shame on anyone for making you feel bad about your birth experience . Hugs, mama and congrats on the birth of your babes!

[pamamidwife]

Some women feel very victimized by their birth experiences, mainly with cesareans. With the rate of unnecessary cesareans climbing, many women are trying to speak out against the rising rate. I think that it's important to remember that not every woman is speaking for you - and you don't speak for every woman.

We've discussed having to include disclaimers before, but it gets too hard to not to offend someone.

I agree that the above blanket statement is not helpful. There are many women who have cesarean births that feel empowered and part of the process. I used to have a signature that said, "Birth is power - don't give it away". However, even then, people were offended.

[cottonwood]

A lot of women who have had cesareans do feel they missed something, not because other people are telling them that they did, but because they experienced a feeling of loss from inside. The loss is not so much about the baby coming out of a different hole than nature provided, but about having to endure the painful aspects of surgical birth that vaginal birthers do not have to deal with, plus not getting to experience the positive aspects of the birth experience that are unique to vaginal birth. When you hear someone say that c-sec birth is "having birth taken away from you," that's hearing someone grieving over those things. It's understandable. But that doesn't need to be relevant to your feelings about your experience, which are just as valid.

[stafl]

this subject comes up rather regularly. The problem is that people are very passionate about this, and it doesn't matter what anyone says, they are unlikely to change their opinions or even try to understand the other sides of this issue.

You have those very few women, like the OP, who had a positive cesarean experience, you have people like myself who had a very traumatizing cesarean experience, and you have natural birth advocates who don't and can't possibly understand the women in the other two groups. You also have all sorts of in-betweens, and even a few people like Pamamidwife who always try to be sensitive of everyone's feelings.

First you have that particular statement that hurt the OP's feelings. Then the op says things that really hurt my feelings. There's nothing worse (to me) than having someone trivialize my feelings of trauma that followed having a cesarean. And while I know it was never your intent to hurt my feelings, my feelings are hurt regardless. Bear that in mind. I'm absolutely certain that statement was never meant to hurt your feelings, it is just how that particular person feels. Try not to take it personally because it isn't about you, it's about her. Just like your OP isn't about me at all, it's about *you*

Every time this subject comes up, people's feelings get hurt and the thread goes on and on and on. Seems nobody ever changes their mind, and they just can't or won't even try to understand where the others are coming from. *sigh*

[equinox]

I saw that signature as well. If that's someones truth then they have a right to express it. But it's not my truth, nor does it have to be yours. It's things like this that remind us to be true to our own beliefs!

[Evergreen]

There have been many touching birth stories involving Caesarean births posted here, and I can not think of one person who has said nything negative about it. There is nothing wrong with having a nescessary caesarean at all!

What you may see as "vaginal Elitism" is probably contempt for the doctors who have tricked women into beleiving that c-sections for unnessecary reasons are safer or easier on mom and baby than normal births. I know I would be very upset to be bullied into major surgery, however I know I can safely have a yoni birth with no problems.

Are you sure the person who said a c-section is having birth taken away from you didn't have a traumatic and unwarranted c-section?

I encourage you to post your birth story. You will be in good company, many great moms have posted their csection stories and they have had encouragment.

[wombat]

I can sympathise with your feelings. I had similar feelings sometimes when I had to use formula at the start until I got BF working. I also had a c/s but no one else can make me feel bad about it but me. Others are entitled to their opinions.

I think you have to take what people are saying in context. There's a backlash against c/s (and formula) for a reason. But the backlash isn't directed at moms like us - we just gotta remember that.

And ITA birth is beautiful.

[Leilalu]

I think what is most important is that all us mamas just SUPPORT one another. We need to be sensitive to the feelings of others.

Sure, I have many soapboxes-doesn't mean I need to pull one out and stand on it everytime I see someone walk by with a different veiw of the world. I think we just need to be discerning when dealing with others. Birth is an experience that completely changes you forever. Good or bad.

Having said that- I have had two cesaereans. One for a persistant footling breech who was 44 weeks and not dropping, the last one (June 20th, 04)for a head down baby who was 42 weeks, labor started, water broke, he wasn't dropping, I wasn't really dialating, etc. So I chose a ceasearean instead of a VBAC on pitocin drip and possibility of epidural, tearing because of pit. and a possible cesearean under a general. I knew that with a spinal and a c-section my bby would be alert and so would I. Plus, he wasn't dropping. They think there is something with the way I am shaped that just doesn't allow the baby to drop. Now- who knows if in the future things won't be different?
I had a great pro-VBAC doctor, a midwife- but the birth ended up a surgical one. And you know what? I felt completely at peace and taken care of. My recovery was a speedy one. I made a choice. It was a healing experience of the first birth becaus elabor actually started and I was able to make the decision to have the c-section or not.

I am one of the most pro- vaginal birth, doctor hating() people you will probably meet. But I have two beautiful children(which I will put in pics of with a sig when things calm down around here)to prove that c-sections can save lives and that doctors aren't all bad. (Just most)
I feel that through the birthing experience I am simply a vessel. Babies ARE BORN one way or another.
Leila

[MommytoTwo]

There's nothing worse (to me) than having someone trivialize my feelings of trauma that followed having a cesarean.

Ditto that. I dont think any one person can judge anothers birth experience since it isnt theirs to judge. If someone has a wonderful cesarean experience, or a horrible vaginal experience, that is THEIR experience and I dont judge that. Birth is very personal. I had a horrible c-section experience personally. If others had great ones then I think that is wonderful for them. I wish I had had that.

[penny31]

Originally Posted by MommytoTwo

I dont think any one person can judge anothers birth experience since it isnt theirs to judge.

Which is why I don't understand why someone would put that in their signature. But whatever.... I don't know that she didn't have a traumatic c-section (although her tone in the thread I read didn't seem to indicate that) so I shouldn't judge her signature. It just makes me sad when people can't be inclusionary. Is that even a word? But you know what I mean. Peace mamas...

XOXO

[stretchmark]

I'd really like to know what statement 'trivialized' the traumatic experience. I read through my post and just can't see where I did that.

Maybe in what I learned from my birth? Well, I guess dds birth was traumatic as I was rushed down the hall and barely numbed or had the sheet up as I watched the laser coming down. I recovered for about 9 months afterwards and didn't get to see my child for quite awhile after. Then I didn't get to hold her for several weeks.

I suppose that there are births that aren't beautiful, I guess I am just referring to the concept of birth and saying that just because someone had a c/b they shouldn't be immediately thought of as having not given birth. As though we didn't do because it was done for us. Like HE**, I did do it even though I didn't squeeze them out. That is what I am saying.

Sorry to have offended anyone
I just had a hard time allowing myself to have a c/b because I thought it would be a crappy experience, then when I relaxed and asked for my needs to be met, things opened up and were so amazing that I still tear up to this day thinking about hearing that first cry and feeling his feet leave my body and seeing my husband cry and holding him in the OR (something I know not everyone gets to do). I have a completely different appreciation for c/b and doctors who do everything in their power to make them positive, like mine did, Heck, she even asked for silence before she pulled ds out and asked for low voices in the OR that had about 10 people in it.

I still think birth is beautiful AND I know first-hand the trauma that can occur.

[stretchmark]

Hi again, I just got pm'd back from the person who has that siggy.
She sent me her birth story and I see why she says what she said.

here (I think) is her story.

I guess I just had a great experience this last time and will hopefully not have to go through what so many people go through with both vaginal and c/b.

If I have hurt or offended you, knowingly or unknowingly, through body, speech, or mind, I humbly ask for your forgiveness.
If you have hurt or offended me, knowingly or unknowingly, through body, speech or mind, I freely forgive you.

[tuffykenwell]

Originally Posted by morebabies

SIZE=3]BIRTH IS BEAUTIFUL AND AMAZING NO MATTER WHICH HOLE MY BABY CAME FROM![/SIZE]

See to me this trivializes my experience. My birth with my son WAS NOT BEAUTIFUL NOR WAS IT AMAZING. My son is both of those things but I *still* two years and several months later cannot dwell too much on his labour and delivery because I get the shakes just thinking about it. My experience was completely and totally unnecessary and I really do think that I am experiencing the affects of post traumatic stress disorder from it. I am pregnant again and honestly I lay awake at night thinking (and crying) about it sometimes...I am terrified that I will walk down the same path even though I now come equiped with everything I have learned in the two years since his birth. Sometimes I still have nightmares about his birth. I don't think my cesearean was necessary and there has never been a single moment when I could have the comfort that it was in his best interest or mine.

Steph

[stretchmark]

How about if I change it to:

MY BIRTHS WERE BEAUTIFUL AND AMAZING EVEN THOUGH BOTH OF THEM WERE THROUGH MY BELLY

i THINK i'M STICKIN' TO THE TRADING POST

[USAmma]

I had epidural births with both my girls and it was still an amazing, beautiful, moving experience. I have no regrets and would not have changed a thing. I still felt I was in control the whole time. I hear people refer to hospital births as "being strapped down with all those wires and tubes sticking out of you." It wasn't like that at all for me. I felt more like a queen on her throne with my friends/dh offering to help me with whatever I needed at the time.

Don't let someone's sig line ruin your day. And write your birth experiences if you want to. Here are mine:

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sukum...ory/index.html

Darshani

[stafl]

Originally Posted by morebabies

I'd really like to know what statement 'trivialized' the traumatic experience. I read through my post and just can't see where I did that.

see, that's my point exactly! It seems to me that nobody can possibly understand how people feel about the births of their children when they had a totally different experience. You weren't traumatized by your cesarean, and can even refer to it as "giving birth" and "beautiful and amazing" - that's great! But the same is not true for me. I *was* traumatized, and probably will be suffering ptsd the rest of my life. I could never say that I gave birth to my firstborn daughter. And there was nothing beautiful or amazing about the experience.

Like I said before, I know you had no intentions of hurting my feelings, yet my feelings were hurt none-the-less. Your post was about you, not about me. It was about your experience, not mine. I know that, and I am not offended in the least. I was just pointing out how easily it is to hurt someone's feelings without meaning to.

Please do write your birth stories - I'd love to read them! (mine are linked in my siggie, if anyone is interested)

[witchbaby]

i'm not going to lie: that sig line pisses me off. i don't care if it came from a woman who HAD c/b, it's still hurtful.
can i really and truly say my c/b was neccesary? no. do i feel it was? yes. think whatever you want, but when my daughter's heartrate had been faltering for hours, i was ready to do anything to save her, even at cost to my life. honestly.
i wanted a vaginal birth with all my heart and starting crying and hyperventilating when i was advised to have a c-section. i felt like all work and pain i'd gone through was being dashed (we ttc for over a year after a miscarriage, endured another miscarriage, r.e. help, bleeding early in the pregnancy, preterm and prodromal labor).
i still am hurting from not having the birth i'd wanted so badly. my daughter is 7.5 months old and i still cry that i didn't get the birth i wanted with her.
so seeing that sig line is painful. i am vulnerable, as are many of the women here who have had c/b, and to be "slapped," as it were, makes the pain ever more fresh.

[Electra375]

When you have a c/s and know it was for the right reasons, then you are happy. But when you have a c/s for what you know are not right reasons, you can really be brought down by the experience.
Having had 2 c/s neither necessary, I wouldn't wish a c/s on anyone. However, I do know that c/s #2 was nice in that it was planned ahead of time and I went in, had the baby, and came home 4 days later. I convinced myself to be happy about it.
For some people a c/s is a life saver and the only way they are ever going to have a baby. And for those people a c/s is great and they should feel blessed.
In any case, a c/s mother is no less a mother.
Am I glad I did have a vaginal birth, you bet I am! But that hasn't made me any better at being a mother. It has healed my spirit though.
We should not judge a mother by how she became a mother. Adoptive mothers, c/s mothers, vaginal mothers, we are all mothers who give our best to our children.
Morebabies -- Congradulations on your blessed little one!

[stretchmark]

So, I just have to say that the person whos siggy that is and I have been chatting. She feels like her birth was stolen from her and that is what she is talking about. I think it could certainly be more ownershippy about it and maybe say, 'read how my birth was stolen HERE' or something like that. I was just paralyzed reading through a thread in the breastfeeding area and couldn't even go on. I probably should have waited until I clarified things with her but I was pretty sure I knew where she was coming from. I was off. I guess what I don't like is this idea that c/bs can't be wonderful.
Birth in general can either be positive or negative no matter how the babe gets here. That is what I am getting at.