it's official.. Gentle Discipline is not possible with my child :( - Page 6

[Stacymom]

Ok, ParisMaman, I appreciate you making me think.

So, do I take the toy back from my younger dd and give it to the older dd? And what about when dd1 comes up to dd2 and takes something from her out of the blue and then throws a tantrum when I insist that she gives it back? How do I balance the often contradicting wants of two very young children?

(Sorry to hijack the thread... : I'm learning so much!)

[PM]

Man, I have never had to be a car mom. I don't even want to go there!

Ok, the first thing you do is validate everyone's feelings.

(No, I can't even explain to you how this would go in a car!)

Basically, just let both express how they feel. "Honey, you feel upset because you want your toy back." "Uh huh." "You gave it to sister and now you would like to have it back." "Yah." To sister, "So-and-so feels upset because she'd like to have her toy back. If you wanted your toy from her how would you feel?" "Angry." "What can we do so sister won't feel that way anymore?"

If none of that works, "How 'bout if I turn up the music and we play wigglies?" Or something silly.

dd2 and takes something from her out of the blue and then throws a tantrum when I insist that she gives it back?

Don't insist that she give it back. Model proper ways of asking for things before taking them. This includes asking your children each time you take something from their hands (lots of parents grab too!). Talk about gentle ways to ask for or take things from people's hands. But don't chastise for grabbing or not being able to share. And continue the same dialog as above: "Your sister took that toy from you." "Yeah!" "Is that how she should take things?" "No! She should ask me." "It makes you angry when she take things without asking?" "Yeah! I don't want to give it to her." blah blah blah I know it sounds strange but it really works for me. And I was reading something last night about how Gandhi said something like all things seem unnatural until they become natural or something like that. I'm sure I'm a little bit off, but you get the gyst.

Or try a timer. Sister can have the toy for one minute, then other sister can have it for one minute.

Or just find something else to do.

[PurpleBasil]

I cannot wait to have conversations with my kids like that, ParisMaman! When the toddler takes everything from the baby, it's a wee bit different.

We still go through all that stuff but the 'how to talk...' phrases are really hard to find effective, ime, when the children are under two or three years of age.

[MarineWife]

My older ds, who is now 13, is a very spirited, head strong person. From the time he was about 2 he would not let me comfort or hold him in any way when he was angry. Some children do not want or need that. It is very hard for me to accept this because as a child I always wished my mother would try to comfort me when I was upset but she never did. I do think, however, that they still need their parent there. I still go to my ds when he storms off to his room to tell him that I am here to talk if and when he wants.

Maybe just tell your dd once that you understand how she feels and are ready to talk to her when she is ready. Stay close and make sure that as soon as she comes to you, you focus all of your attention on her and the situation at hand. I would definitely not use bribes or punishments. Bribes just reinforce the behavior. Punishments might send the message that her feelings are wrong or bad. When you are both ready, you can talk about different ways for her to express her feelings.

I agree with many other people on here that there are areas in between giving in to and ignoring the child or the behavior. Just because you do not buy your child a candy when she throws a fit does not mean that you ignore your child.

[sadie_sabot]

I haven't read the whole thread yet...just wanted to say i really appreciate the advocating for kids that i see going on here, in particular from veganmomma.

My dd has never never run into the street, and doesn't argue about being picked up to cross the street, but we have disagreements about riding in the stroller (as opposed to walking) all the time. Why? Well, the first two are safety issues and are *truly* not negotiable. Riding in the stroller vs walking, however, is about MY wants and my impatience, and thus it is basically arbitrary, and therefor, negotiable. so, we negotiate.

I suspect the negotiating will get easier when she gets more verbal though.. :LOL

anyway, keep it up mommas! i know everyone's making suggestions for LMB, but it's helping me, too!

[monkey's mom]

Tantrums--Frequent and intense tantrums here! Most of them have to do with his expectations for things that no one else knew about or anticipated!

For example, yesterday we were heading into the unfinished laundry room area. There is a step down and then a path betw. boxes and stuff. At the top of the step Sam reached up to me behind him. So I figured he wanted to jump off the step--very common. Well, we had been having a particularly playful morning and were in the middle of "pretend rushing" to get dressed and go to a friend's, sooooo I helped him jump off the step and then swung him down the path into the laundry room. He FREAKED! Started sobbing and saying something that I could not understand through the crying--this further infuriates him. I could not figure out what had gone wrong, but I kept trying to reassure him that I was there, cooing "Poor Sam, poor Sam," and alternately trying to figure out what he was saying. I also walked away in frustration--this made it worse--it always does, but I have to try it every couple of months it seems.

He finally (after about 10 minutes) conveyed, "I didn't get to do it! I didn't get to do it!" Turns out he had wanted to weave his way through the boxes and I had taken that experience from him. So I offered to go back and do it again. He did and his mood COMPLETELY shifted! I told him I was sorry for what happened and he told me how sad he had felt. Usually a nursing session follows, too.

He does not do well with deviating from his plans. One time my husband put a waffle in the "wrong" slot in the toaster (apparantly I had always put the waffle in the slot closest to me! Who knew an 18 mo. old would notice or CARE!?). He was beside himself. But, once we figured out what the problem was we resolved it. He just wanted it done in the way it had always been done. It's just who he is.

So, we try to let the tantrum happen, but in our case we need to do a fair amount of problem solving, too.

Punishment--

Someone posted this recently in another conversation and it seemed very reasonable and wise to me:

If your goal is to make your daughter conform to a certain behavior then
punishment is one tool many people use.

If your goal is a more joyful family life and great relationships, then
there are better tools.

One of the reasons orders and punishment seem to work is that it makes
sense. The most direct path to getting what you want is to tell someone and
have them do it. Another reason is that it *looks* like it works. Compliant
kids will do what they're told because fighting for what they want isn't
worth it to them. That's conveninent for parents! But not a good character
quality for a child when she's with people who are less trustworthy than her
parents (a boyfriend? a pushy friend? an adult who seemed nice on the
surface?) and definitely not a useful character quality as an adult. Defiant
kids may also comply. But then they'll do what they want when parents aren't
looking. (We can't really control what they do. But we can create the
illusion that we can control them!)

Punishment can raise great kids. It can also raise kids who want out of the
home as soon as possible and kids who are destructive and disrespectful. The
success of punishment based parenting depends on the child's personality and
the other ways the parent is relating to the child.

Parenting based on respect doesn't depend on the child's personality and it
is the whole of how a parent relates to the child.

TV (and Limits)--

I think that if you take *anything* away, people are going to want to binge on it when they get it. If I took books away from Sam and only allowed them on our weekly trip to the library, he would probably freak out when I tried to leave the library after an hour. As it is, we read up to 20 books a day, so he never feels threatened about losing them or about library time ending. I just view TV the same way.

And I think that giving a kid a week with unlimited whatever after having limits is not a good litmus test. There will be a binge period b/c who knows when it's going to be taken away again. Just as if my boss called and said "Take the week off--paid!" I would behave differently that week than in another week if she had said, "Take the year off--paid!" At the halfway point in the year off, I doubt I'd still be sleeping half the day, ordering in, laying by the pool, and having movie marathons.

Anyway, sorry to post a novel! I can't sleep. I've been enjoying this thread and some of the great points made (esp. about GD not working and then needing to bring in the "big guns!").

[PM]

Yeah, Playdoh, I knew someone would call me on that. But I was hoping people would get ideas and then adjust to the level of the children's verbal skills/comprehension. Children and babies still understand when the parent is being empathetic even when they are pre-verbal.

[PM]

Monkey'sMom - My dd is just like your ds. In fact, my mom was saying that she'll always be like that (must have my universe in order at all times). I'm not so sure, since I validate her needs the way I do. She also has the moments like the running through the boxes thing - and I just love it when we can figure out the problem together!

[PurpleBasil]

ParisMaman, I didn't mean to 'call' you on anything, I'm really sorry if it came across that way. I just wanted to speak up on how difficult it is to employ those conversation-empathizing tools when children are very young.

In our home, it can go:

baby has toy
toddler comes and take it out of baby's hands
baby cries (or looks blankly early on!)
toddler runs away
I look at crying, angry baby
go find toddler
try to talk about the toy
toddler panics, runs away screaming
go pick up baby, comfort
find toddler
try again to discuss what it feels like when he wants a toy baby has
toddler runs. ;-)

The other option:
toddler has toy
baby crawls to toddler and takes it away
toddler freaks out, screams, cries
baby looks at toddler
I try to comfort toddler, talk about feelings
toddler in a panic, screaming
Me: 'hmm..no one can hear me, interesting.'
baby cries after seeing toddler cry
toddler grabs back toy
toddler runs away
baby cries
pick up baby, comfort
go find toddler

[PM]

Ok, Ok! :LOL

Sorry! I meant I knew someone would tell me that it won't work with the little ones.

But you can still tell the toddler "Hey! That sucks that he just took your toy!" Even if it doesn't solve anything or prevent his crying, your toddler will still hear you, whether you believe it or not!

But perhaps I'm just naïve?

[PurpleBasil]

Yeah, good to say all those things. And to repeat them each time these things happen (daily!) I just smile sometimes because with all the shrieking and crying, truly it is better to just shut up and hug one or both. Better than raising my voice to say, 'oh, you feel upset when he takes things out of your hand!' I sound like an idiot.

Believe me, I want to have the full cartoon I read in 'How to talk so kids...' I'm living for that day! A full conversation about feelings with lots of response from the child. Negotiating use of a home computer. Negotiating a family trip.

Bring it on!

[luv my 2 sweeties]

Gosh, I'm having a hard time picking excerpts, I would suggest reading it all the way through. It is a great article, and more GD centered than TCS, so maybe more pallatable to those here.

ITA!!! Thank you for bringing up that article, Veganmamma. It is also my favorite, and one I recommend frequently to friends who are struggling with tantrums. I was lucky enough to read it just as my ds was moving into tantrums at early age! (dd has always been more into whining than tantruming.) I feel certain that using the listening technique from the atricle has been one reason his tantrums are much less frequent than I thought they would be.

As this thread moves along, it seems that many of us who appeared to be on "opposing" sides of the tantrum/giving in issue are really not so far appart after all. The biggest difference seems to be in how many and what kinds of limits/rules a parent sets up in the first place, rather than how to handle a child who has overstepped them. This thread has prompted me to think about how and why I set limits, and self-evaluation is always a good thing! I'm still apt to have more limits than some others here, but I'll keep evaluating which ones are really worth it!

[PM]

Expectation inventory (from Your Child's Self-Esteem):

Write down every expectation and observe it in light of these questions:

Why do I have this expectation?
Where did come from?
What's in it for me?
Is it based on my needs or my child's?
What purpose does it serve?
Does it realistically fit this particular child at this age and with this temperament and background?

Another quote from the book:

"Please note: letting a child own his feelings does not mean letting him do anything he wants. There is a vast difference between stopping an act and dictating to emotions. "

She goes on to say that, for example, when we tell a child to wait until after lunch to eat ice cream we are telling the child to feel as we do. She says to validate the child's desire for ice cream (you have the right to your feelings even though they are different from mine) and then tell the child, "but you'll have to wait until after lunch. (limits act) If you're hungry I'll start getting lunch ready."

Now. This is not for me. But if you really want to limit ice cream (or whatever), I think this is a healthy approach.

[Dragonfly]

How old is your toddler, playdoh? I wonder if, in the second scenario, at least, you could speak toddler and say, "Wow, that stinks that baby took your toy. Maybe we can find something to trade baby for the toy." And then model the trading. Maybe baby will go for it (especially if the items are notably similar in shape, size, texture, that sort of thing. Then toddler learns a little about rudimentary negotiation, too.

In the first scenario, it might be sufficient to just comfort baby, show empathy both verbally and physically. Young toddlers don't get sharing, of course, but they can start to "get" the impact that their actions have on others.

I remember being frustrated by the idealism in "How To Talk..." when ds was much younger because, hey, I wanted that ideal scenario. :LOL He didn't have the verbal skills for it. But he could still pick up on basics, especially if I stressed certain words - "trade" for example - and modeled physically what I was trying to get across.

Apologies if you've done all that already.

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by ParisMaman

She goes on to say that, for example, when we tell a child to wait until after lunch to eat ice cream we are telling the child to feel as we do. She says to validate the child's desire for ice cream (you have the right to your feelings even though they are different from mine) and then tell the child, "but you'll have to wait until after lunch. (limits act) If you're hungry I'll start getting lunch ready."

Now. This is not for me. But if you really want to limit ice cream (or whatever), I think this is a healthy approach.

Not for me either. For those who would use it, though, the thing I'd change in that scenario is to eliminate the word "but." People - especially children - generally hear "yes, but" phrases as no.... it's not validating, IMO; it's dismissive. "Yes, I hear you, but what you want doesn't really matter." Ever since taking a mediation class (which was pretty much all about communicating with others), I've tried mightily to eliminate "yes, but" phrases from my vocabulary. On the occasions when I've slipped, I can see ds physically turn off to our communication when it comes out of my mouth. Interesting.

[Fianna]

Great articles, VM. Definitely stuff to print out for dh to read as we really need to get on the same page about coercion and threats. Sometimes I wonder if that is a more male tendency, as it is one of his "defaults" when parenting gets tough.

LMB, echoing what others have said about staying close and available during tantrums. That's always been the best approach around our house.

Stacymom, my oldest isn't a toddler anymore but when she and her little sister fight over something and it starts to turn into a screaming, shoving match, I try to encourage them to find a creative solution. Trading works wonders! My 5-yr-old is getting better and better and doing that now with her 2-yr-old sister. And it works in the car. In the times that there isn't something to trade, I usually focus on the "victim" in that situation, giving her lots of comfort, physical and verbal, and I often ignore the "perpetrator". It's amazing how compassionate and giving the "perp" usually becomes! We do have lots of talks about respect and compromise. Respect for others and their property is an expected behavior around here, and my children don't snatch toys from other children, push and shove, cut in line for the slide, or any other behaviors that they wouldn't want other kids to do to them. When they see other kids behaving in hurtful ways, they usually want to talk about it, so we get lots of great "teachable" moments!

We have very few "written in stone" rules around our house but the few we do have are safety rules. No going down the driveway by yourself, no leaving the yard, no going outside by yourself, that sort of thing. Again, those are rules that my children have yet to challenge, and I hope that part of the reason is that they trust us not to impose arbitrary rules of convenience.

Now, if anyone has any great suggestions for the most appropriate way to deal with a 5-yr-old who has just started kindergarten and who comes home after a long day and has had so much stimulation that she is hyper, argumentative, and prone to strong mood swings? This is a brand new area for us and I want to handle it the best way I can. I wasn't very good about it yesterday and had to do some apologizing for my short temper. I asked her to come up with some ideas to help her decompress in the afternoons and we will write some of them down this afternoon when I pick her up from school. But if anyone has BTDT and has some great suggestions, I'm all ears!

[Stacymom]

playdoh! : Did you look in my window and observe my children before you wrote your poast? That's exactly how it goes at my house. And I too think, "Bring on the Verbal Children!" I'm ready for all that- it's this pre- and partly-verbal stuff that has me tied all up in knots.

Thanks for all your ideas though- if nothing else, it's really helped me look at things a different way today.

[PurpleBasil]

Great thoughts, Dragonfly! Yes, I do the trade thing and I agree, it works for baby, doesn't work for toddler since he is too smart for that. But hey, I'll take it for now with the baby!

I probably made it sound like I simply look at the baby, not emphathize with him. That was just a rough outline of a common scenario or two, not fleshed out with all the vocab I do use. Toddler hitting baby is another one altogether...fun, fun as all moms of more than one know so well.

Sometimes all one can do (imo) is empathize and find a good alternative or replacement. Sharing is tough for many years so it's no good to reprimand or force, ime. I have so many years ahead of the 'he took my ________!' and 'he looked at me!' or drawing the line in the car where one can't touch the other (at least I did that with my siblings).

[Fianna]

Originally Posted by playdoh

Sometimes all one can do (imo) is empathize and find a good alternative or replacement. Sharing is tough for many years so it's no good to reprimand or force, ime. I have so many years ahead of the 'he took my ________!' and 'he looked at me!' or drawing the line in the car where one can't touch the other (at least I did that with my siblings).

Just a couple of days ago my older dd gave a big sigh from the backseat during an especially challenging car ride with her little sister and said, "I really wish there were a wall right here between Anna and me." I couldn't help but laugh because there have certainly been a number of times I've wished for for one of those sound proof remote control windows between the front and the back seat!

[sntm]

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

Not for me either. For those who would use it, though, the thing I'd change in that scenario is to eliminate the word "but." People - especially children - generally hear "yes, but" phrases as no.... it's not validating, IMO; it's dismissive. "Yes, I hear you, but what you want doesn't really matter." Ever since taking a mediation class (which was pretty much all about communicating with others), I've tried mightily to eliminate "yes, but" phrases from my vocabulary. On the occasions when I've slipped, I can see ds physically turn off to our communication when it comes out of my mouth. Interesting.

Good point. I tend to follow PM's way of phrasing only without the "but."

E.g., "you would like some ice cream? Okay, we'll eat some lunch and then have ice cream."