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it's official.. Gentle Discipline is not possible with my child :( - Page 11

post #201 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by BunnysMomma
II think that sometimes people here seem to be asking an awful lot of their kids when they expect that their kids can reason through things. Very emotional, tantruming children can't reason. Two or 3 year olds really can't reason. That's why young children need their parents to be in charge and teach them acceptable ways to express themselves, and that's why, in my humble opinion, talking to children in different ways than I would talk to my spouse is completely acceptable. Children and adults behave differently and they think differently, and I think it's respectful to children to acknowledge that. I don't advocate screaming, degrading, and being mean to children, but I also don't see ordering a child to do something they don't want to do as disrespectful of their personhood. Children usually can't see or understand the big picture the way adults do.

Wilma

And another for BunnysMama. ITA.
post #202 of 260
I don't use that anology, but I think you (you three) don't understand it. It is simply a way to say that it is not healthy to use disrepectful ways of communicating (yelling, berating, shaming, forcing) with anyone - your partner or your children. It does not mean that you must talk to your children the same way you talk to your partner. It tires me to read all the time that because I say children deserve respect it must mean that I let a child kick me. I want to be able to see the reasons behind my partner's after-work grumpiness (instead of taking it personally) the same I want to be able to see the reasons behind my toddler's kicking (instead of thinking he or she is just bad/manipulating/doing it to get my goat, etc.).

There are posters here who do treat their children in a vastly different way than they treat their partners; hence, the analogy.
post #203 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParisMaman
I don't use that anology, but I think you (you three) don't understand it. It is simply a way to say that it is not healthy to use disrepectful ways of communicating (yelling, berating, shaming, forcing) with anyone - your partner or your children.There are posters here who do treat their children in a vastly different way than they treat their partners; hence, the analogy.

I do treat my chldren vastly differently than my partner. I DO NOT yell berate shame or force though.

I do make demands I would not make on my partner. check out my post on how I deal with my DD in response to "my kids have too much power." I wouldn't talk to my spouse that way. I think it is a good way to talk to a five year old though
post #204 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by luv my 2 sweeties
Just quickly, if you wind up in battles about the TV staying off, consider just removing it for a while. This is how we have had to handle tv with DS. DD would accept limits on viewing, but DS begs and begs and begs and drives me nuts! Taking it down has worked wonders as far as stopping the battle completely -- out of sight, out of mind! We still pull it out now and then for a treat. Both kids are playing much more creatively now.

As for the ice cream and other "junk" she knows is there -- how about removing it from the house for a while? You and dh will have to practice what you preach, which can be a good lesson in itself! I'm no saint on this one -- I often pull out the chips and salsa after the kids go to bed. But if it were becoming a daily battle with the kiddos refusing to eat other food and begging for the chips, I'd go without for a while. Your dd won't refuse to eat good food if it's the only stuff available! An occasional treat is fine, but for a while you may want to limit it to outside the house, until a better pattern is established at home. A good tip I learned to compromise between making a separate meal for a picky eater and forcing them to eat only what you cooked: Always have something on the table that you know the child likes. If that's all they eat, fine, but you don't get yourself into the bind of having to be a short-order cook! So if you might serve tuna casserole with cherry tomatoes, cheese and bread. If she eats some of each, great. If she only eats bread, cheese and one tomato, fine. It's worked pretty well for us.
Haven't read all the responses yet (long thread), but I want to ditto this. I have two foster children with food issues. I will not let them just eat junk like they want (and specific junk at that), but I also don't make them eat stuff they genuinely dislike (like onions and spinach). I make some meals that they love, some that are healthy and they don't hate. Everything has a balance, you know?

Good luck,
Kristi
post #205 of 260
Maya, I have a different approach.
post #206 of 260
CB, I'm not sure whether you're laughing at me because you find my position ridiculous or whether you're laughing because you find what I've written funny.

Wilma
post #207 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParisMaman
Maya, I have a different approach.

Yes, I understand you have a different approach. I think what I, Charles B and Bunnysmama are saying is that we do. We don't believe in treating kids like adults and Bunnysmama gave a good (and amusing) explanation of why.

So when posters say, "I wouldn't do X to my dc because it would be rude to do to my dh" that is not a good reason/analogy for us. There are things we don't do because it is wrong to do to children, but that is a different story.

I believe that all 3 of us still use GD. As a matter of fact, this is one difference between my inter-action with my kids and with my DH. I sure wouldn't "discipline" him, even gently. I strongly believe that things are different with adults, who it is not your job to teach.
post #208 of 260
I just wanted to comment on the food issue also. I am a picky eater, always have been. And a lot of it does not have to do with taste. Most of it is texture, smell, or what the stuff is. I love the taste of onions in things, but I hate when they are still crunchy. Don't know why, I just do not like them that way, they must be mushy, lol! Broccoli, I cannot stand the smell of it, and the smell hangs around for hours too, ugg. I have tried to eat it, I know it is good for you, but the smell makes me gag, I just cannot do it. And some things I just cannot eat because of what they are, sour cream, cottage cheese, sunny side eggs, egg yolk in general. I know that it is all mental, that the taste is not that bad, but it is not something I can get around. I remember one of the best things my Mom ever did was find out WHY I did not like something, and she would try to cook it another way next time. Sometimes it would work and I would find that although I did not like cooked peas I loved them raw. I knew I would have to try what ever it was she made, but she always had something like rice that she knew everyone would eat too. My dad however was one of those "you put it on your plate you eat it all" types. He made my brother eat a bunch of ketchup when he put to much on his plate one time. I hated meal times with him (he was gone a lot because of his job). Around here I try to do what my Mom did, although I seem to be only picky one here, Dh and ds will eat anything that is set on their plates, so I lucked out there. But whenever I hear parents complain about their picky eaters, I really feel for the kids cause I know what it can be like.
post #209 of 260
Quote:
Very emotional, tantruming children can't reason. Two or 3 year olds really can't reason.
How do you know they are incapable of reason?
post #210 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by BunnysMomma
This may or may not be off topic, but another thing that I notice a lot of people talking about is "Would you ever do that to your husband?" or some other similar thing to justify why they wouldn't coerce/demand/request that their child do something. I personally don't really see that as a valid analogy because my husband would never fall down on the floor and start kicking and screaming because I asked him to put on his socks. My husband would never scream "NO!" and run to hide under the bed because I told him that before we could read a book we had to clean up his dinosaurs. My husband would never dump his plate of food on the floor because he didn't like what I was serving.

OK, from my point of view- if my husband asked me to put on my socks- I might not fall down on the floor kicking and screaming, but- I wouldn't likely put my socks on either , I am not a fan of being told what to do- now if it was actually him asking me to do so, and he explained what *I* felt was a good reason why, I would likely do it, but still on *my* time frame and *if* I felt there was a good reason.

Now story time and picking up dinosaurs- let's put that into adult world- if dh said he wasn't going to spend time doing something special with me until I did the dishes, um.... let's just say that would not go over well. He could say that he doesn't want to spend special time with me until after the dishes are done, and I'd likely either- offer to do them, offer to help him, or maybe say- "ok, when you're done with the dishes, I'll be here", but the third option would be rare and only likely if I had something else pressing to do. I love and feel respected by my dh, and if it meant a lot to him that the house be cleaned up before we relax together, I would help him out, no biggie, my kids do the same for me .

If my husband made a dinner I did not like (knowing I did not like it- I am a picky eater despite my mom's efforts to get me to try new things), and then told me that I couldn't get myself another meal that I *do* like, AND that I had to eat what he made (in part b/c he's bigger than me and the "boss" even if he didn't say that), the meal might not just end up on the floor IYKWIM.

Now, on the flip side- if dd hits ds, I stop her and tell her that it is NOT ok to hit him, I might even yell about it, then I would try to figure out *WHAT* was going on with her that she did that, to prevent it from happening again. I would react the same way if dh spanked ds.

That is where I am coming from when I talk about respecting my kids like I do dh.

Still, I fail, often, I don't always treat dh or the kids in the most respectful way, but I am working on it .
post #211 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by playdoh
How do you know they are incapable of reason?
Because just about every theory of child development that we have tells us that young children, younger than about 6 or 7, haven't developed the mental capacity to reason.

Wilma
post #212 of 260
Wilma, I've read the exact opposite in child development theory.

I think it used to be quite popular to think children incapable of reason. What that meant was adults saw children as incapable of doing what the adult wanted. The adult thought himself to have very good reason(ing) for the request/command to the child. When the child 'disobeyed', the only conclusion drawn was the child must not be capable of reason(ing) that the request was completely reasonable.

Young children (under age 4) have remarkable inductive judgement capabilities. Anyone who has toddlers knows how astute they are at noticing subtle changes in their environment, things moved different places, emotional shifts in parents, what the pets are doing/not doing. They can readily identify and compare these changes.

Just one example. I am very glad science now supports children having reasoning capabilities. It was a dark age when children were thought to be without reason and thus, 'need to be told what to do' (and coerced into doing it).
post #213 of 260
Really? Hmm. Not according to the books I read - normal, everyday, non-biased child psychology books.

You seem to come up with a quite a bit of statements about a lot of things (BTW 16 per million deaths in SA from eating disorders).
post #214 of 260
Peppermint, I think you're reading too much into what I said. And, you did exactly what I was saying I don't agree with: you compared a situation involving a child with a situation involving an adult. If I let my children play with all their toys without putting them away before they moved on to something else, the floor would be covered with toys. I'm not ok with that. I ask that when they are done playing with something, they put it away before they move on to something else. I don't see that as an unreasonable or disrespectful request, period. I have things I have to do to keep this household a comfortable and efficient place to live, and so do my kids. It has nothing to do with refusing to spend special time with them until they comply with my whims. (And that's just the one example that I will address.)

Also, there is a big difference between a child noticing and comparing differences in their environment and being able to reason, which is looking at a situation from various angles and choosing a reasoned course of action. Children act out of their own sense of self-interest because they are ego-ecentric and lack the experience to anticipate the consequences of their actions on any sort of sophisticated level. That is what I learned in studying psychology, and that is what I have observed in my years of experience working with and living with children.

Also, ParisMaman, I don't appreciate your tone. I make my statements based on my experiences, just as anyone else does. I take what people say at face value. I don't enjoy arguing with people just to argue with them. When someone's experiences or opinions contradict mine, I assume that what they have said comes from the same place of good faith within them that my statements come from in me. I am here to add my voice to the discussion, not to prove that I am right. I am here to share my experiences and learn from others. I don't make up statements just to seem like an authority on anything. If you don't want to hear what I have to say, then tell me to shut up and go away. But please don't treat me snidely just because I have contributed something you don't happen to agree with.

I don't think that my continued participation in this discussion will be productive for anyone, so over and out!

Wilma
post #215 of 260
Wilma

I was trying to talk to the point in your post that I quoted, you said your dh would not respond to you the way your child does, I am saying, and maybe it's just me, that if I were treated the way many treat children, I (as an adult) would respond in a similar fashion as the children often do, I was telling you why *I* think the husband analogy is a good one. I understand that you don't think it is a good analogy and I was trying to point out what I saw as a flaw in your reasoning, that's all.

That said, I am sorry you are done with the thread (So not even sure you are reading this), but, I was curious, were you the one who mentioned that you don't use GD? Someone said that on this thread a few pages back, and it made me wonder why they were posting in this forum.
post #216 of 260
Peppermint, you remembered that correctly, yes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BunnysMomma
I've only read the first two pages of this very long thread, but already I have run up against a number of things that have made me have to bite my tongue. Let it be known that I am not a GDer. Wilma
post #217 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by BunnysMomma
This may or may not be off topic, but another thing that I notice a lot of people talking about is "Would you ever do that to your husband?" or some other similar thing to justify why they wouldn't coerce/demand/request that their child do something. I personally don't really see that as a valid analogy because my husband would never fall down on the floor and start kicking and screaming because I asked him to put on his socks. My husband would never scream "NO!" and run to hide under the bed because I told him that before we could read a book we had to clean up his dinosaurs. My husband would never dump his plate of food on the floor because he didn't like what I was serving.
LOL! Well, you're right that a grown man wouldn't respond that way, but I also think that in most cases that would never even have the CHANCE to occur, because generally, family meals are planned based on what BOTH husband and wife like to eat. I wouldn't waste my time and money making an entire meal that only I want to eat. (well, unless I could really use and enjoy leftovers for myself for the next several days, but that's besides the point of this thread lol)

{And I'm not just talking to you BunnysMomma, I mean the general 'you'. Your summary of that idea just worked well with my train of thought. }

DH and I (yes, bless him, he cooks!) try to make meals that a least the majority of our 5 person family would like to eat (and on a good day, everyone would like). I'm a picky eater, but now dealing with my girls' special needs, I think it is a biiiggg sensory thing for me. The smells of many foods make me gag and feel sick to my stomach, and at that moment I literally shudder to think what will happen if I put that food in my mouth. Spicy foods (hot spicy and strong flavor spicy) put burns & sores in my mouth and make tears flow from my eyes. I have real sympathy now when my kids panic and their faces take on a look of dread at eating a certain food. I know that fear all too well.

From sight and/or smell I know what food is going to be problematic for me without taking a bite. I think kids can too. Maybe in some cases they won't really have a reaction, but if they are upset and afraid to try it, forcing them to try it is going to give them a negative emotional reaction to that food, and then you may have a battle on your hands each and every time it gets put on the table. We adults know what we like and dislike by look, smell, and texture -- kids do too! They have those very same senses. Children are not lacking them just because they're younger than we are.

My girls have a lot of sensory issues (both have PDD-NOS on the spectrum, they are very Asperger-like) so my situation may be somewhat different, but for me, I have bigger things to enforce with them then eating what I want when. Like working on getting DD#2 NOT to run away from me (she's turning 5 on the 17th but developmentally is really turning 3) - she's super fast and has no idea of safety. "Be with Mommy" is the only thing in her life that is not a choice for her so I can keep her safe AND because by keeping the "must do" thing to a bare minimum she understands that concept all the better.

Both girls eat fairly healthily (as in not wanting junk food and candy, but instead reaching for better choices) in their own time in their own way, and they get a little better at it every day. I've been doing a big remodel of their diets, and have been introducing new foods a little at a time. (a variety of fruits are the current 'new' foods) I truly believe that because they trust me to NOT make them eat something, and just let them expore it first (touch it, smell it, squeeze it, and sometimes even eventually lick it), they will try eating it on their own (and most often when they think I'm not looking! ROFL!!
post #218 of 260
[QUOTE/]and just let them expore it first (touch it, smell it, squeeze it, and sometimes even eventually lick it), they will try eating it on their own (and most often when they think I'm not looking! ROFL!![/QUOTE]
I also do this. I always test the firmness with my fork and also take it apart, smell it, and if it passes, put it in my mouth. that's why when I go out to eat I try not to try something new cause I hate doing this in public. But I often experiment at home with cooking and I do try to try new things.
post #219 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by BunnysMomma
I think that how parents handle what their children are required to eat at mealtime is the smallest factor in this.
As someone who has suffered from eating disorders my entire adolescent and adult life, I completely disagree.

My counselor disagreed, as well. She recognized the original source of my issues when she met my father. As much as I love him, he is, in some ways, a control freak. Forcing me to choose between eating certain things or not eating at all was one of his earliest ways of controlling me.

Sure, media plays a big role later on, but by the time children are old enough to get the media message, the path is already paved. Children learn early on that their food is something to be controlled so, when their lives spiral out of control, they may grasp onto it as something that they can regiment themselves.
post #220 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by BunnysMomma
CB, I'm not sure whether you're laughing at me because you find my position ridiculous or whether you're laughing because you find what I've written funny.

Wilma

Oh, because I really was rolling on the floor laughing my fanny off at the image of my husband collapsing on the floor in a big tantrum!!
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