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it's official.. Gentle Discipline is not possible with my child :( - Page 12

post #221 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParisMaman
I don't use that anology, but I think you (you three) don't understand it. It is simply a way to say that it is not healthy to use disrepectful ways of communicating (yelling, berating, shaming, forcing) with anyone - your partner or your children. It does not mean that you must talk to your children the same way you talk to your partner. It tires me to read all the time that because I say children deserve respect it must mean that I let a child kick me. I want to be able to see the reasons behind my partner's after-work grumpiness (instead of taking it personally) the same I want to be able to see the reasons behind my toddler's kicking (instead of thinking he or she is just bad/manipulating/doing it to get my goat, etc.).
PM

You say it so well.
post #222 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by maya43
So when posters say, "I wouldn't do X to my dc because it would be rude to do to my dh" that is not a good reason/analogy for us. There are things we don't do because it is wrong to do to children, but that is a different story.
Perhaps you can give an example so we can discuss it? I'm having a hard time thinking of something I would do to my child that I wouldn't do to a husband or partner. There are, of course, things I do for my child that I wouldn't necessarily do for a husband or partner on a routine basis, but that's an issue of capability.

What the posters who say that are implying is that they give their children the same respect that they do their husband. It doesn't mean that they deal with their children and their husband in exactly the same way, with the same words, etc. (which is how you seem to be taking it). Children, of course, have different needs and abilities than husbands do - remembering that when approaching them is part of respecting them.

As for not disciplining your partner - I also disagree. We all "teach" our partners how to treat us. And there's a certain amount of teaching each other that goes into learning how to live as partners.
post #223 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonfly
Sure, media plays a big role later on, but by the time children are old enough to get the media message, the path is already paved. Children learn early on that their food is something to be controlled so, when their lives spiral out of control, they may grasp onto it as something that they can regiment themselves.
And people who have been controlled by parents their whole lives are often more than willing to hand that control over to someone (or something) else later on.
post #224 of 260
Quote:
And people who have been controlled by parents their whole lives are often more than willing to hand that control over to someone (or something) else later on.
Example?
post #225 of 260
Of a person or a control situation?
post #226 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by journeymom
Example?
Abused wives.
post #227 of 260
whoa! i have to take issue w/ that. from my experience as a dv advocate, and from my research and reading on dv (admittedly out of date, it's been years since i worked on this issue) there are no patterns suggesting that people w/ such-and-such type childhood are more likely to be victims of abuse later on. (although there does seem to be a correllation between witnessing abuse as a child and being abusive as an adult.)
post #228 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by guerrillamama
whoa! i have to take issue w/ that. from my experience as a dv advocate, and from my research and reading on dv (admittedly out of date, it's been years since i worked on this issue) there are no patterns suggesting that people w/ such-and-such type childhood are more likely to be victims of abuse later on.
Really? I've read just the opposite - over and over again - that children who are abused have a greater chance of either growing up to be abusers or growing up to date/marry abusers (or both - abused by husbands and abuse their own children). Humans most often grow into what they know (unless there is some journey to enlightenment along the way).

That doesn't mean that all abused wives were abused as children, of course.

It stands to reason that a woman who was controlled as a girl would choose (subconsciously, most likely) to partner with a person who controls her. Either that or become a control freak, herself. Or, again, both.
post #229 of 260
T

"Boys who witness domestic violence are more likely to batter their female partners as adults than boys raised in nonviolent homes. There is no evidence, however, that girls who witness their mothers' abuse have a higher risk of being battered as adults."
http://www.letswrap.com/dvinfo/kids.htm

sorry i don't have a study or any stats or anything to offer. i just did a quick google. this is what i remember learning years ago. i guess reasonable minds can differ on this point, i can see both sides.

but i DO take issue w/ the characterization that battered women "choose" abusive relationships. i don't believe anyone "chooses" to be abused. i could say a lot more, but i'm already hijacking this thread...

sorry!!!
post #230 of 260
[QUOTE=Dragonfly]Perhaps you can give an example so we can discuss it? I'm having a hard time thinking of something I would do to my child that I wouldn't do to a husband or partner. There are, of course, things I do for my child that I wouldn't necessarily do for a husband or partner on a routine basis, but that's an issue of capability.



I would not tell my husband that he has watched ennough tv for the day. I would not tell him that he could not have any more ice-cream. I would not tell my husband that he has to bring his plate from the table, even if he forgot. I would not tell my husband that he could not touch something in a store because it could break. I would not tell him that he could not buy something he wanted becaue I disaproved of it.



I could give lots more examples.
post #231 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by guerrillamama
but i DO take issue w/ the characterization that battered women "choose" abusive relationships. i don't believe anyone "chooses" to be abused. i could say a lot more, but i'm already hijacking this thread...
Perhaps choose is the wrong word because it might imply conscious thought. When I wrote "choose" I qualified it with subconsciously. Women often choose mates who, if we had stronger insight into our subconscious, we would know were not good for us. We also often, for some reason, choose mates who are much like our fathers.

Here's one link I found:

Abused girls grow to be abused women

Btw, I know this thread has veered a bit, but it still seems relevant in the sense that we're speaking of indoctrinating behaviors. I'm surprised that anyone (not saying you are - just anyone) would take issue with the notion that a child who was controlled excessively would be more likely to grow into an adult who looked for external control or became a control freak. Isn't one of the main goals of gentle discipline to teach our children how to function as gentle adults and, hopefully, parent their own children gently? We can't expect that children are only impacted long-term by our positive behaviors and that they don't incorporate the negative behaviors into their lives.
post #232 of 260
But, Maya, I wouldn't tell my child any of those things either.

What I would do is examine why I am starting to get hyper about the TV watching and the ice cream eating - and remove both from the house all together if it is really causing a problem between my child and me. I would ask myself, why, today of all days, do I feel she's had enough? Do I think I'm a bad mom when she does these things? Did my mom & dad limit me too much? Do I feel I need to do the same? What is the worst that can happen? Why have I let her watch so much already that now I feel uncomfortable with it? Do I feel guilty about not spending that time with her? Will it kill her? Or will she have the natural consequences of tired eyes and tummy ache? Why does it bug me that she eats a lot of ice cream? And if I'm so worried about it why is it available?

I feel like I should now that there is no tv watching or ice cream eating right now in our house. And it's not because I layed down some arbitrary law about it; most of it is simply modelling healthier habits. And it helps that there is no ice cream in the house.

Also, if my child were watching too much television or eating too much ice cream, I would wonder what the underlying reasons are. Am I modelling appropriate TV-watching or am I, too, sitting around vegging in front of the tube every chance I get? Do I model healthy eating? Or am I in the freezer with a big ol' spoon every chance I get?

Then I would work out a compromise (democratic discipline). Contrary to what some believe here, my child is perfectly capable of reason. But that's because she has always had a say in everything that affects her life. I don't think it's reasonable to tell a child that he or she suddenly has a say - when he or she never has - and expect him or her to start immediately to reason with you. With my child I lay out the consequences on her health of certain actions and ask her what we can do that would be healthier.

And in every way this is how I interreact with my dh. For example, when I am offended I look at why I feel that way. What did he really say? Is that really offensive? Or is it because my mom used to say such and such and that's why it really bugs me, etc. When there's a problem we don't agree on we work out a compromise.
post #233 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParisMaman
Contrary to what some believe here, my child is perfectly capable of reason. But that's because she has always had a say in everything that affects her life.

I can ditto the first sentence.
I wish I could ditto the second sentence . I am working on it!
post #234 of 260
Well Paris that's how you and I differ. I think its fine for me to tell my kids this stuff. I think its fine that different rules apply to me. This is how I was raised. My mom alway said "Adulthood has its privleges. This made sense to me. I was VERY happy with the GD and limits that were set. I always felt nutured and loved. As I got older, I was given some more say in things. It happened gradually and naturally and deicsion making has never been a problem for me.


I am not going to change my way of doing things because my kids are so happy. We do not fight about the rules in our family. The rules are the rules. My kids are expected to follow them This is NOT a democracy. However, there is little consequence in "breaking" the rules and it very seldom it happens.
post #235 of 260
BunnysMama I am sorry I was snide. I will PM an apology. There were several factors feeding my snarkiness (MIL here questioning my schooling choices, feeling bad about a few of the threads here, etc.), one of which was also the fact that you do not practice GD yet come to a GD support forum to give advice.

Maya43 We're all just laying out our choices for other posters to read. But I am willing to change my tactics when I read something that I hadn't thought of before. That's why I am here.
post #236 of 260
:

Great advice and situations to think about here. Thanks!
post #237 of 260
This *is* a great thread... I've been off MDC for awhile because I didnt' feel like I was finding any new and original discussions- but this is certainly one.

i don't have advice for the OP, but wanted to point out a few things having read through all the posts.

Regarding young children and reasoning... It seems to me from the examples given, that it is not that the child is reasoning, as much as participating in problem solving. to me, this is entirely different and much more of an appropriate expectation from a child as young as 2. In the example Piglet gave, she mentioned talking to the child about the toys on the floor and then coming up with potential solutions and choosing. As I said, I think this is participating in problem solving, and clearly is a parent guided approach; ie: the child cannot do this on his/her own (again, talking about 2-4 year olds, the exceptional child the exception). *Reasoning* to me would be a child who can, without guidance, come up with various possibilities, weigh the pros and cons of each, and come up with the best to fit the issue. So, perhaps this is nit-picky but i do think that its important to note that yes, young children absolutely can be involved in making decisions and problem solving as soon as possible and that by doing so, he or she will reach the independent reasoning stage all the sooner, I am sure.

I am sorry that Bunnysmom left the discussion. I think its irrelevant whether she practices GD or not, personally. What's the point of always talking with people who agree, or can't raise an alternative viewpoint? Helps me to resolve my own position.

An observation: I think it is often easier to see how
*other* people can/should change, and that our own experiences and often those of people we know are the exception to the rule. Not that good healthy debate can't happen, however....

Just wanted to add... CB, i was a teacher of middle school kids, so i really feel where you are coming from with a lot of your approaches!! I often feel like being a teacher is both great/poor preparation for being a parent at the same time- my house is not a classroom, and my child is not my student, and yet!
post #238 of 260
Quote:
*Reasoning* to me would be a child who can, without guidance, come up with various possibilities, weigh the pros and cons of each, and come up with the best to fit the issue.
Not to be nit-picky, or to brag, but my 4 year-old really can do that. She comes up with the ideas. And she loves doing it and is proud of herself. Maybe she's special that way. I dunno.

Newmainer, you may be right about being non-GD or even anti-GD not being an issue, but we've had a history of posters advocating non-GD tactics. But, you're right. We should stay in the present and just take what the poster says at face value without adding our own issues and garbage and perceptions to it.
post #239 of 260
On the GD and not GD issue, I wanted to point out that I love it that people come here to learn about GD who are not using GD-yet. I am simply not big on proud declarations of "I don't use GD and I am appaled by the things being advocated here" by people who are not interested in changing, yk? This is supposed to be a GD support board, and there is NOT supposed to be debate of GD around here. I visit another board where I find myseld "defending" GD and I am thankful for the safe haven here. Certainly I was not try to tell the poster that she can't post here, just as to why some people do.

PM- my 4 yo can reason too (but I wouldn't say she did at 2, at that point it was more like what newmainer was talking about).
post #240 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peppermint

PM- my 4 yo can reason too (but I wouldn't say she did at 2, at that point it was more like what newmainer was talking about).
yup, that's what i meant. I am not really close to any 4 year olds, however, I am sure your children are special regardless
and that others may still be at the problem solving stage. currently, my 14 mo. old dd is at neither, though I wish she was!!

yes, I agree that a forum dedicated to GD shouldn't be where people argue its validity- that's what its here for. I just personally didn't feel like Bunnysmom's contributions were all that argumentative and damaging to the thread, just adding her experience with 21 kids .
Probably if she hadnt' mentioned herself that she didnt' practice GD, we'd be none the wiser. But, whatever, I digress.
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