it's official.. Gentle Discipline is not possible with my child :( - Page 4

[pugmadmama]

Originally Posted by veganmamma

...How would you feel if your husband took the remote away from you and told you no, he didn't want to watch another channel, or he didn't want you to experiment with the buttons?...

It would make no sense. I'm a person who has demonstrated through the years that I will not destroy the remote. My two year old did not have that ability (nor did he want the old remote he was allowed to have.) I see a difference between two year olds and thirty year olds. Not in their need for respect but in their need for guidance and limits.

I am an authority figure to my child, I'm not afraid or ashamed of that. I think he counts on me for that. Not through corporal punishment, not through yelling, not through manipulation, but through consistancy and reasonable rules that reflect my families values and the needs of my child, not his desires but his needs.

But, and this is so important, how I handled things like access to the remote with my son would not be appropriate with every child. I think the path for GD is long (18+ years) and wide. Its one thing to say "Breastfeeding is best", it's quite another to say "If you don't hand over the remote control to your crying child, you are not respecting your child's personhood." I can see drawing those firm lines if we were talking about TCS, but with GD? No, I don't see GD that way.

[MarineWife]

I have to disagree with the notion that not "giving in" is not gentle discipline. You don't have to "give in" to your child's tantrums in order to show them love and respect. These are two separate issues. My mother gave in to me every time I threw a tantrum. She also disrespected me by not listening to me and not taking my feelings seriously. The reason she gave in to me was because she didn't care enough to take the time or make the effort to help me. My father, otoh, was very strict but he always took the time to listen to me and talk to me and treated me like the intelligent, capable person that I was. Although I think he was too strict and would not want to follow all of his parenting methods, I respect and love him more today than I do my mother. I also feel more love and respect from him than from my mother.

You could give your children everything they want without dealing with tantrums. You can also treat your children with respect without giving them everything they want. Not everything that I want is good for me and not everything my dh wants is good for him or maybe not good for the whole family. We sometimes have to give each other a reality check. As a family, we have the responsibility of doing the same for our children.

[3 little birds]

This is a great thread, I am glad to have read it.

Some things that have worked for us:

I absolutely cannot have junk food in the house. When we want a treat, we get single servings or use it all at once. This way we have eliminated the struggle and whining for said treat. It makes my life alot easier.

The same approach has worked for us with the TV. When it is in the closet, noone asks to watch it. When it is in the family room, it's hard to keep it off. TV has a bad effect on my kids. It makes them grouchy and irritable and bored. I think this is because they aren't really DOING anything, when they are watching TV. We use it sparingly. You'd be surprised how unimportant it becomes if you have to drag it out of the closet.

If my dd's(almost 5) throw a temper tantrum, there is usually an underlying reason (fatigue, hunger, sadness, etc). They may be throwing a fit about not wanting to pick up their toys, but when I think about it usually I can find the underlying reason. It helps me to be more understanding. That said, I don't give in, because I don't make a lot of arbitrary rules. So if dd is crying, I will hold her and try to make her laugh,etc. If I feel like I might be losing my temper I will tell her that I need to go check something in the kitchen and I will be right back. This way she has time to think and relax, but I'm not "abandoning" her. I will come back and leave until we've resolved the issue. 9 times out of 10 getting them to laugh diffuses the situation.

DS is 2 and more stubborn than the twins. Distraction is my best trick with him, esp since I am trying to reduce his nursing a bit (preg with #4).

Also, if dd says,"Mommy get me some grapes now!" I will tell her to say, "Mommy may I have some grapes, please"so that she will know the best way to ask.

HTH

[Charles Baudelaire]

Originally Posted by loving-my-babies

clothcrazymom- thanks for your kind words and very wise post.

ok, so about an hour ago, all the TV's are OFF! NO TV IN OUR HOUSE! the radio is on, and dd is playing with paints in the livingroom, listening to some music. wow, I feel good about turning the TV off. I will take her to ger gymboree class later on today, so that will give us something to do. I need to find more activities to do at home, I am buying her more finger paints and some more paper (she has a lot but if it's new it'll motivate her and she'll be happy playing)

[veganmamma]

pugmadmama- I understand your point, but I disagree that children have a "need" for limits. I'm not saying that if you don't hand over the remote you don't respect your child's personhood, either. What I mean is that snatching it away is disrespectful. Right now I am discussing a bar of soap with my dd. It is mine. I don't want it open and chewed on. Instead of taking it away I explained that I don't care if she holds it, but please don't chew it or open it. She wants her own to open and mess with so since we're going to the store anyway, we'll look for a soap of her own to mess with. She is excited about going to the store and i'm excited that she isn't eating soap or ruining a special gift, and I haven't taken something away while she screamed in protest. I think I handled the situation in a way that respected her without creating a power struggle.

Maybe I do just disagree with gentle discipline. I still have a MAJOR beef with this "giving in" and letting your child scream and cry crap. It isn't gentle. How is a child supposed to reconcile have all their cries attended to since birth and then once they reach a certain age their mom decides all of a sudden not to.

I just read some more of the posts and remembered why I've stayed out of here for a long time. The GD forum is moving in a direction I can't respect I think.

[veganmamma]

Originally Posted by MarineWife

I have to disagree with the notion that not "giving in" is not gentle discipline. You don't have to "give in" to your child's tantrums in order to show them love and respect. These are two separate issues. My mother gave in to me every time I threw a tantrum. She also disrespected me by not listening to me and not taking my feelings seriously. The reason she gave in to me was because she didn't care enough to take the time or make the effort to help me. My father, otoh, was very strict but he always took the time to listen to me and talk to me and treated me like the intelligent, capable person that I was. Although I think he was too strict and would not want to follow all of his parenting methods, I respect and love him more today than I do my mother. I also feel more love and respect from him than from my mother.

You could give your children everything they want without dealing with tantrums. You can also treat your children with respect without giving them everything they want. Not everything that I want is good for me and not everything my dh wants is good for him or maybe not good for the whole family. We sometimes have to give each other a reality check. As a family, we have the responsibility of doing the same for our children.

I really appreciate this post, thank you.

[Mama J Rock]

This thread is so awesome. I love seeing such passionate responses with so much good philosophy, suggestions, hands on advice, good debates and everything.

My 2 cents worth is about the hair thing. I've found that if I get her hair brushed out right after a bath with lots of conditioner it's easier to comb. I keep it in a ponytail or braid most all the time so that it doesn't get food/sticky stuff in it. She sleeps with a braid most nights and that keeps the tangles at bay too. It's less of a battle for us because it doesn't hurt as much to brush.

[Charles Baudelaire]

Originally Posted by veganmamma

Well, I disagree with Charles Bauledaire, but I often do. :LOL No offense, CB.

None taken. Everyone to her own tastes.

My child can choose what she wants to eat just as I choose what I want to eat. If I don't like what everyone is having, I'll make myself something else. ...Just because dd doesn't have the skills to make her own food or the money to buy her own food, doesn't mean she shouldn't be afforded this respect. Forcing kids to eat food they don't like or not to eat any food at all is continuing the food battle and is an ultimatum I personally find very, very offensive.

***The reason I gave that advice is because it sounds not like an issue of, "I don't like what's being served to me," but rather, "I will not eat because it pi***es you off." Hey, if I had Lil' Veganchild over to dinner, I wouldn't serve her ham with a side of sausage. I'd cook things I thought she'd like (tofu with a side of sugar peas?), but no mom should have to be a short-order cook.

In other words, it's not about tastes. It's about control.

Allowing a child to scream for hours and hours is not gentle discipline. Well, truthfully, I feel like a lot of things that are not gentle pass for gentle discipline around here anymore. My eyes were bugging out when I read that though.

Again, my point was to take away what the child is using as a very effective and inappropriate tool of manipulation. Not allowing it to affect you renders that tool powerless. I would absolutely *not* give in to screaming...and the thing is, VM, it sounds like you've been more in control of the situation than LMB -- whose intentions were kind and good, seriously! -- so it never needed to get to that point of escalation because you'd set up the situation to avoid that.

However, different situations call for different actions. This is a more seriously out-of-control situation than a child's reasonable request or reasonable frustration.

Anyway, I agree with much of what you said.

[Charles Baudelaire]

Originally Posted by Peppermint

Above all- she is NOT spoiled brat and YOU ARE A WONDERFUL MAMA! I have also never seen someone take advice here so quickly and so gracefully, your dd is lucky, you are doing great! GD can work with your daughter, you just need to keep seeking help when needed, that's what the forum is here for, I have learned so much myself .

Oh, I would so like to second that! Ditto!!!! No one is perfect (DEFINITELY NOT ME!!!!) and boy, it takes real ovaries to admit it and ask for help, esp. where raising our kids comes into play.

[veganmamma]

CB, I agree, no short order cooking here. I keep her favorites prepared and in the fridge. When it's about control I think the bigger issue is why the child thinks they need to manipulate the power structure, kwim?

[Dechen]

I think a false dichotomy has been set up. The choices are not "Give in to screaming" or "Ignore screaming child completely." Responding to a tantrum does not have to mean giving the child the exact thing he or she wanted.

You can show love and empathy.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by MarineWife

You don't have to "give in" to your child's tantrums in order to show them love and respect. These are two separate issues.

I strongly believe this, too. But I am reading and considering the different pov's carefully....

Here is my strategy:
I am careful to avoid power struggles. Safety, respect, kindness--those are the basic rules. Other things can come up when we are out (wanting things that I will not buy--but there are LOTS of things that *I want that I do not buy--I try to curb our consumerism on all levels....), or when she is tired (struggling with bedtime routine, or preparing to go out in the morn).

When we are getting into a struggle (she is raising her voice, maybe crying, seeming panicky), I try to head it off before it becomes a tantrum: eye contact, physical contact, saying "I'm listening--tell me your pov....your idea (she often wants to suggest a compromise--and frequently they are brilliantly doable!). We try to "work it out". Usually, this
is the end of the episode.

If she continues in the direction of temper tantrum, then there is usually an aggravating factor (fatigue, overstimulation, hunger, etc). At that point, it is clear to me that she needs to get *out* of the situation. Giving in is not going to help! She will just be melting down about something else in 5 (1?!) minute. So then I move to empathising strongly, but remaining firm. Screaming is not reasonable behavior. Kicking and hitting (like my tantruming child) is not reasonable behavior. So we move from reasoning to damage control, and work on calming the tantrum. I do not leave her to cry alone, although she often tells me to "get away" from her--but I stay close for when she is calm enough to be comforted.

After she is calm, if she wants to "try again" or suggest a compromise, that is fine--I am flexible again. But screaming will not change my mind. I know that at times she does not have the patience/capacity to reason--goodness, she is only 3!--but I just don't think that "giving in" helps the situation. For us, it only delays the inevitable meltdown.

So, that is why I don't "give in" to tantrums. Does this make any sense? Does this seem respectful?

[Fianna]

Originally Posted by loving-my-babies

OMG this is exactly my definition of gentle discipline. however, I keep hearing from a lot of people that TV is bad for their health, too much junk food is not good, etc.. the clothing thing is really my issue, so let's discuss the TV and junk food issue. it would be SO easy to just let her watch tv all day, or whenever she wants to.. but is it really in her best interest? I don't want her to grow up to be a stuck-on-a-tv-screen-all-day person, I want her to explore other things. I want her to read (she reads a lot but only when TV is off, if it's on she would much rather watch tv) then there's the ADHD thing, and studies that point towards TV being harmful not only mentally but physically as well. who wins here? help! I would feel uncomfortable letting her watch TV all day, to tell you the truth, it just doesnt feel right. about food, I think I need to start eating healthier foods If I'm going to ask her to eat healthy foods. It seems like torture to have a yummy box of ice cream in the freezer when she can't have any. it's like counting money in front of the poor. kwim?

Fantastic thread and responses. One of the best I've seen in GD in a long time!

I think you've hit on something very important in your last post, LMB. And I think it is something that truly a lot of people who come to MDC struggle with. It's the conflict between what we hear or feel or know is truly best for our children and what is reality in our homes. If tv is a problem for a child, then it is a family problem. It means the entire family needs to make a change, IMO. For instance, if a dad can come home after work, turn on the tv, and watch whatever he wants for as long as he wants, then he is role modeling that behavior for the child. It then makes absolutely no sense to a child why he or she can't do the same thing! Same with the eating. It doesn't make much sense to buy food that children aren't allowed to eat. If junk is the problem, then in all fairness to everyone, it should stay out of the house.

After I finished reading some really poignant posts in this thread, with several sticking in my head like Lauren's and VM's, my 2-yr-old came up and asked for something to eat. Instead of listing the options for her, which I am prone to do, I simply said ok and asked her to pick out what she wanted. She asked to open the "freeza" which means the fridge, so we did and I started naming off items that were in there since she could only see one shelf. What did she pick? Cauliflower. She could have chosen the pudding, the chocolate milk, some other "healthy" choices as well. And if she had, I would have given it to her. Some nights I serve desert with their meal and if they eat it first, fine. They have never eaten the desert first and not eaten the meal. I have gone through phases where I allowed food to become a control issue, where I did the threatening or the bribing, and it was horrible. It's such an easy trap to fall into. And so destructive.

[loving-my-babies]

wow, so many interesting posts.. ok I'm going to give my kids their bath and I'll be back in a bit... (tonight)

[Lucky Charm]

You don't have to "give in" to your child's tantrums in order to show them love and respect

I agree with this.

Lauren, what is wrong with setting boundries? How is not giving in wrong to you? I read your last post about the issue with the soap. Why must everything be a dissertation? Cant no mean no?

I should add that i refuse to make food a battle, yet it was going to become one if i kept the ice cream soda in the house. So i called a moratorium, because it was evident to me, that Nicholas could not deal with this in a productive way. How is that not cuing into my child? He just couldnt, or wouldnt understand that you cant have ice cream at 7am.

And should a child get his way everytime? Because he wants the remote, or to watch spongebob, or to stay outside, climb on the counter, why is it not gentle to set limits?

My child is not the "boss" in this house. Bedtime is a certain time during the school year, we have to hold hands in the parking lot, and no soda. I made these rules for their wellbeing. I love them enough to say no.

[pugmadmama]

Originally Posted by veganmamma

pugmadmama- I understand your point, but I disagree that children have a "need" for limits. I'm not saying that if you don't hand over the remote you don't respect your child's personhood, either. What I mean is that snatching it away is disrespectful...

Who said to "snatch it away?" I think you're introducing a strawman arguement.

Originally Posted by veganmamma

... Maybe I do just disagree with gentle discipline. I still have a MAJOR beef with this "giving in" and letting your child scream and cry crap. It isn't gentle. How is a child supposed to reconcile have all their cries attended to since birth and then once they reach a certain age their mom decides all of a sudden not to...

Toddlers are different from infants. Young children are different than toddlers. Pre-teens are different from young children. And so on. Call it "cry crap" if you must, but I think the physical and psychological differences between an infant and a toddler are very real.

For me, that you meet all your infants needs when they cry does not translate into giving in/negotiations with toddlers/young children everytime they cry. Back to the remote, my son wanted to fling/stomp on the remote. I wasn't going to go out and buy him a new one (he rejected the old one that was for him anyway.) I didn't snatch it out of his hands, I refused to give it to him in the first place or if he did get it, I'd gently remove it from his hands, even if it made him cry. I'd offer to read him a book or direct him to his train set. But sometimes he just had to cry because he didn't get what he wanted (the remote.) And I think that's okay and perfectly in-line with GD.

I'm not afraid of my child's tears or of my own. I think crying can be a healthy part of life, even when it's from hearing a difficult "no." I think learning to deal with the frustration of not always getting what you want (and/or an acceptable substitute) is an essential part of childhood and it's a skill you need your entire adult life. Life isn't fair, everything is not negotiable, I don't think teaching my son otherwise is what I'm supposed to be doing as his mother.

[Lucky Charm]

Well said, Pugmadmama.

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by loving-my-babies

I think I need to start eating healthier foods If I'm going to ask her to eat healthy foods.

Definitely. It also helps if you make a point of sitting down together and eating the healthy food. Make it a fun experience. Ds just the other day started eating salad (WOOHOO!) and I'm convinced it's because we sat down and ate together (we haven't been doing that so much lately. ).

I'm really focused on avoiding food struggles, as food was one of the way my parents controlled me from the very beginning and I firmly believe it lead to my long battle with eating disorders. I found that it was hard, though, to get ds to eat healthy food when there was dessert waiting at the end. So, I abolished the idea of dessert altogether. Now, if he wants ice cream before dinner, he has ice cream before dinner. He has a really small amount, though, so he'll still be hungry and he's really okay with that very small amount. He just wants to be able to eat what he wants when he wants. And then he eats dinner just to eat dinner - not to get to dessert. Maybe something like that would work for you?

[loving-my-babies]

ok, I have questions for both trains of thought. veganmama, I think we are having a great discussion, I respect all your posts and like them all, you have given me wonderful advice, and I am sorry you feel GD has gone in the "wrong direction", but I think everyone has a different definition of what "gentle" is, and every child is different, even though I do agree with you and your posts inspire me, I think it's ok that everyone has different ideas. you guys are all here because you have such a big heart and want to help me. I thank you all for being so generous with your time.

Ok, so on to the questions. veganmama.. and all the mamas for VERY gentle parenting, how do you handle tantrums? what do you think I should do when Valentina is screaming and crying and if I approach her, she will try kicking me? I would love to find a more gentle alternative than screaming back "please stop" and hugs will NOT WORK. I have tried comforting her DURING a tantrum, but it only makes it worse. I admit, this interferes sometimes with what I am doing (pretty much all the time) anything that is not for her, I have to stop doing in that exact instant or she throws a fit. what about me needing 5 minutes to catch the end of a favorite TV show? if the TV is on, it has to be cartoons, or again, another fit. it's so hard! do you have any advice on how to approach this in a gentle way?

for the other train of thought.. the same questions. what would you guys do in this case? in the middle of a tantrum, do you use bribes ever? how do you feel about punishment? I don't like these but I do want to know what works for you and why.

thanks again, guys! they say it takes a village to raise a child.. you guys are my village

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by Dechen

I think a false dichotomy has been set up. The choices are not "Give in to screaming" or "Ignore screaming child completely." Responding to a tantrum does not have to mean giving the child the exact thing he or she wanted.

Definitely.