do nonbelievers burn? - Page 6

[pie]

duck needs to start her own branch of Christianity!

[dfoy]

I like to think of God as an AP parent. Would you send your children to a burning lake of fire if they disobeyed and did not repent? Or if they never understood or held fast the same ideals as you have?

God is love.

Not hatred, fire and damnation.

[pie]

right on dfoy

[mamaduck]

duck needs to start her own branch of Christianity!

Yeah, well, that is just what Christianity needs, huh? One more denomination. One more person jumping up and down in class, waving their hands and yelling "I KNOW THE ANSWER!! Everyone listen to ME!" Ugh.

I have a fever and I keep grasping for thoughts and then loosing them. It is very frustrating. But there was something else I wanted to say! I dunno. Probably just as dangerous as posting drunk....

[EFmom]

Quakers (a Christian religion) have a belief that there is that of God in each of us, and that we need to listen to that Light when it speaks to us. It sounds a little like duck's philosophy to me.

Yes, people do bad things. Some do monstrous things. But they also do incredibly kind, generous, loving things too. I refuse to accept that we are all evil and base at heart, and are only capable of doing good if we are "saved." I know too many good, kind, gentle people who are agnostic and athiests to believe that for a moment.

[mamaduck]

You're talkin' Ezzo here and I stay way way away from that kind of dogma, so please don't put me in that catogory.

No worries -- I don't. But it is still basic assumptions about human nature that lead to such crap. Too scary for me. I guess you agree with me -- that people are more complicated than that.

but how shall we then discount the words of Jesus when He said those who don't believe will have spiritual eternal death? I

A chapter and verse would help me here.

You know I love you all

Yup. I love you too.

[dfoy]

AP parents know there needs to be consequences. But I doubt they think about a lake of fire, hell and damnation. JMHO.

[mamaduck]

Another thing about AP parents -- they recognize that their children are at different places developmentally at different times, and that no child follows exactly the same pattern as another in terms or readiness for different levels of consequences. God must deal with each of us exactly where we are -- and only He knows how much we are capbable of believing/accepting, etc... The Bible supports the fact that he holds some of us to higher standards than others, based on what we have been given. (Oh -- somewhere in Matthew and then in Romans too. Maybe elsewhere.)

I realize there may be people who don't live up to the lowest possible standards -- who don't care, who don't try, who may believe, but still actively rebel against God, etc.. But who am I to judge who those people are? I don't know where they are at spiritually or how ready their hearts are. Only God knows that -- being the "in tune" parent that he is. So I really can't say who gets punishment and who is redeemed. Anymore than a stranger will know when my tantruming 3 year old needs a hug and good meal, or needs to spend some time in his room giving the rest of humanity some "space."

I don't know -- maybe if my "baby" were 25 and jumped in a lake, kicked me in the shins and told to leave him alone -- maybe I would just go sit on the shore and cry over him. Who knows. The point being -- only God knows how mature I am spiritually.

[Zina]

It is interesting that some people see the Christian God as an AP parent. Every time I read the Bible, I think God is the archetype of an abusive father. He gets mad when people don't submit fully to him and does something drastic like flood the world, drowning most everyone, then he feels bad about it and says he's sorry and he won't do it again..... He threatens his children with Hell and all I can think of is a raging parent hissing, "You'll do as I say or you'll be sorry!" (Being sorry translating to get a whuppin' or some such pain.) He plays favorites, he makes examples of his children....if he were a mortal father, he'd be condemned as a monsterous tyrant! But others read the Bible and come out of it feeling that God is love, a beautiful concept. It's interesting how things can be interpreted SO differently by different people.

[BelovedBird]

Rock on Mamaduck ! I agree with so much you have said here!

-BelovedBird

[candiland]

Mamaduck, you are pretty right on.
There have been many teachers throughout history -- I do not think Jesus was and will be the only one. The thing that has always gotten me down about organized religion was the need to "convert" others to the church's way of thinking. I mean, missionaries "spreading the good word" to third world nations and ancient aboriginal tribes have caused so much harm and suffering.... it is not up to Christians to "know the mind of God" and to tell people that they need to convert or be damned. They are, then, judging other people and the way that they choose to live their lives... and doesn't the Bible mention that men (something else that kinda irks me, all that "Father" and "Man" and "God" stuff, that patriarchal crap that keeps women subservient) should not pass judgment on one another, that it is ultimately up to "God"?:

[mamaduck]

Thanks NM. You got me to finally open my Bible. It has been too long...

It is interesting in John 3 -- that he says "whoever does not believe is already condemned." The word "already" jumps out at me. He goes on to talk about people choosing not to "come to the light" and so they remain in darkness. Seems to me he is supporting what we have said -- that hell is an individual decision a person makes to remain apart from God.

Tempted to recite the whol section here, but I'll refrain. It is just very beautiful. I love where it says "Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to codemn te world, but in order that the world might be saved through him."

It is not as though he condemns some and saves others. It is more like -- we are all condemned and he found a way to fix it. Which IS very good news, IMHO.

[mamaduck]

I can't keep up.

Candiland -- I would never claim to be "right on." I feel to unsure of too many things. But what I know for certain is that God is good. Because if He weren't -- well, then what is the point?

As far as missionaries doing harm -- sigh. So much pride. So much arogance. I know. And I am no better because there was a phase in my life when I was a zealous "preacher" sort of person.

But there are missionaries who do good. Who bring medicine. Who teach. Who care and love people. I've met LOTS of them. The bad kind definately get more press.

I admire people who share the gospel, by and large. But I think it really needs to be done in the spirit of "sharing the good news" and not with the motive of conversion. It is an offer of Hope to those who need it and should not be used as an opportunity for self-glorification. The "I know best - you better pay attention" sort of attitude. Jesus did not take rejection personally (forgive them, they know not what they do) -- why should we? Again -- it is supposed to be a beautiful offer of Hope.

[JessicaS]

woo!! we need a refreshment break.

**starts handing out margaritas and virgin margaritas**

[ladylee]

I'm perfectly content to let all the believers have heaven--throw a big party-woo hoo!

I'll be happy in my next incarnation--and if I have anything to do with it, it will be heaven on earth...

[candiland]

Mamaduck, I think you misunderstood what I meant. I meant "right on" as in "I agree with what you said"
Reading your posts, then NM's posts, I realize that the Bible can be interpreted thousands of different ways. I think it depends on how someone was raised, the things they were taught by their parents and church, and the life experiences that they went through to bring them to their own "truth" and conclusion about the Bible's messages. I don't think there is right or wrong when it comes to interpreting the various messages transcribed in the Bible. Everyone's truth is different, and there are stories and verses to support virtually everyone's notion of who God is and how people should "Be".