do nonbelievers burn? - Page 3

[MarieK]

Sorry, dfoy, my bad.

[Kalinka]

Yammer, :LOL

[Arduinna]

Originally posted by MarieK
WE ARE *ALL* SINNERS

I hope your speaking for Christians here. Because as a pagan I can tell you I'm not a sinner. That is something that your religion came up with and is not a part of my spiritual beliefs.

[Zina]

Okay, it's up to God to judge, but if you believe in the Bible as the word of God, isn't it spelled out pretty clearly? I know a lot more of the old testament than the new so I am asking, doesn't it clearly say that the only way into heaven (thus, escaping hell) is by accepting jesus christ as lord and saviour? also, if we're all sinners and jesus died so that we could all be saved, is the only requirement acepting that as fact and repenting? does it have to both--accepting jesus and repenting? again, if this appears antagonistic, i am really working on understanding what other people believe, not being intentionally dense. i know a lot of christians don't take the bible as the literal word of god and see it as metaphor, but people in this discussion have said that they don't make the rules, they follow the bible, so i am trying to understand what that means.

[MarieK]

doesn't it clearly say that the only way into heaven (thus, escaping hell) is by accepting jesus christ as lord and saviour?

Yes.

also, if we're all sinners and jesus died so that we could all be saved, is the only requirement acepting that as fact and repenting?

Yes. That is all!

does it have to both--accepting jesus and repenting?

This one is a little out of my league. It is my opinion that repenting, although perhaps not absolutely necessary, comes with the territory simply because most people are truly humbled when they accept Christ. When I think of all the suffering Christ went through for me, I am brought to tears of anguish. When I think of the horrible sins I have committed, I am brought to tears of anguish. I will repeat now that all of my posts have been *my opinion*. I'm not trying to imply that anyone else on this board agrees with me.

Arduinna, your post intrigues me! Even before accepting Jesus, I understood that there is no perfect person, although it should be our goal to achieve that. What's your take?

[MarieK]

if the consequence of failing to accept Christ as one's personal savior is to writhe in flames forever, then no, we are not disposible, but indispensible: as object lessons of What Will Happen To Unbelievers.

Well, actually, since we have no way of knowing who has gone where, there are no object lessons. I don't agree with this at all. (not that that surprises anyone )

[Arduinna]

Originally posted by MarieK
[B
Arduinna, your post intrigues me! Even before accepting Jesus, I understood that there is no perfect person, although it should be our goal to achieve that. What's your take? [/B]

Thanks for asking :-)

I'm not saying that I'm perfect, but I am saying that I'm not sinful or a sinner. My dictionary says the definition if sin is "breaking a divine or moral law". My take on it is that this particular morality is one defined by the Christian God. Since I am not Christian and do not adhere to the tenets of Christianity I am not subject to it's divine laws or moral codes. So no sin for me. Also sin is usually seen in conjunction with the idea of being saved from hell. Again, something that is part of the Christian faith.

I do have moral codes, but they are not of divine origin as in "thou shall not".

[MarieK]

Ok, yeah, I never thought of it that way before. Do you mind if I ask for a brief summary of your moral codes?

Mamapie, thanks for starting this thread!

[pie]

Glad you are enjoying it Marie! Can you all believe I am keeping my mouth shut? Someone call the newspapers.

[MarieK]

Mamapie, silly me, I had assumed you weren't even lurking!! Shoulda known better:

[Arduinna]

you know after I posted I realized I shouldn't have used the word codes. At least not when the word code means law. They aren't laws. Honesty is very important to me, and I pride myself on being honest while also trying to be tactfull (not always good at being tactfull though, lol). I don't believe in physical violence, so even when the ants want to come in and get out of the heat I don't use the bug spray, but I do try to deter them by pointing them to a better place to hang out. I don't try to change people but I will help them if they ask me to. I guess you say it's sort of the Buddhist principle of mindfullness. ALthough I;m not Buddhist, so I can't say that I apply it in the same way.

Sorry I don't have something as easy to list as the 10 commandments. It's hard for me to make a hard list of codes, as I am learning everyday so always fine tuning.

[Zina]

So, my poor hypothetical person is going to Hell....

[mamaduck]

Yammer ---

Re your first point -- if the consequence of failing to accept Christ as one's personal savior is to writhe in flames forever, then no, we are not disposible, but indispensible: as object lessons of What Will Happen To Unbelievers. This is a value which is far worse than being of no value!

NO. I don't think it is like this. I believe that if you make a choice to be without God, then that is also your destiny. It is not punitive, IMO. And I believe that God mourns the loss of souls who choose not to be with Him. Much like a parent who's children turn their backs on him.

Zina -- You have some good questions, but I think you'll find it is an areas where Christians disagree, and the answers depend on Biblical interpretation. There is the verse that says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only son that all who believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life." But that verse does NOT say that everyone who does not believe will perish, only that those who do believe will not. There are also verses that talk about Jesus being the only route to God -- but do not reference any condition of belief. It seems possible to me, that the route opened up on the cross by the actions of Jesus could apply to everyone, making him the way to God whether we recognize it or not. Make any sense at all? I don't know for sure, and I think I'll do some reading over the next few days. You are correct though -- many Christians preach that you will not go to heaven unless you believe in Jesus, repent, etc.. I'll have to read from a different perspective to figure out what the BIBLE says though.

And I have no doubt there are Christians on these boards who might suggest I am stepping over some boundries into heresy. Maybe so. But my heart is open to God's instruction, so I'll figure it out eventually.

Oh, and there are verses about God separating "sheep from goats" and accepting some into heaven and sending others away saying "I never knew you." But there are also analogies to Christ as a shepard -- who would leave his 99 sheep in order to go search for one who was lost.

CS Lewis has some interesting views about all this that I really like. In the last book of his Narnia series there is a man who finds himself in heaven even though he spent his life worshipping a false god. Aslan (representing Christ) said that based on the intentions of the mans hearts, the goodness and truth he spent his life striving for, He was accepting the homage paid to the false god as if it was paid to Himself. I love that idea, though I don't know if there is a Biblical basis for it.

For myself, I believe that by rejecting Christ at this point in my spiritual walk, I would be condemning myself to "hell." Because I believe in Him, and have accepted his offer of Grace -- to walk away would be to consciously reject Him.

And analogy might be the idea of "life support." If I am in the hospital depending on some sort of life support system, and I make a conscious decision to shut it off, I will most likely die. But perhaps there are people in this world who do not profess Christ as Savior, but who He still keeps on spiritual life support without them even knowing it. But I believe it is a different story when a person KNOWS and they say "no." Like a person deciding to jump out of a plane with no parachute, trusting in his inate ability to fly.

But I can't emphasize this enough -- I will NOT look at the lives of various individuals and try to judge who is saved and who is not.

[Juliacat]

I don't believe in an afterlife. No heaven, hell, karma, reincarnation, nothing. When we're dead, we're dead. Period.

[Irishmommy]

Catholic here. I personally believe that good people go to heaven, regardless of belief, bad people don't. Whether they go to purgatory or hell would depend on how bad. God may forgive the likes of, say, Hitler, but that doesn't mean he forgets, and I seriously doubt Hitler is anywhere but hell.

JMO.

[Bekka]

Well, answering this question from the LDS POV (anymore acronyms and we'd be like the US govt--ack!), ie., Mormon, would be a long and drawn out conversation/description. Suffice it to say that we believe in hell, but it is a transitional place as described in the Bible. Part of our description of where souls end up and whether that's hell has to do with the presence of God or not, but they are actual places. anyone interested, I can oblige another night. But by all means, please ask.

[NewMa]

I'll bite.

I am curious about this one. Can you eleborate Bekka?

[MarieK]

mamaduck... I *love* C.S. Lewis!! Esp. _Mere Christianity_ and The Chronicles of Narnia. The thumbs are for your entire post, though, not just that part

[NewMa]

Yammer- you posting drunk again?

[NewMa]

:LOL