Help making DH feel comfortable about not circing (long)?

[grisandole]

Hi! I have two ds, the oldes 9yo and circed, the second brand new (four weeks old!) and intact. During the pregnancy dh and I never really discussed circing, as we were sure we were having a girl (no u/s or anything, just a "feeling"). The topic came up once, and I told him that I didn't want it done, but I would consider his feelings, and the only way I would even consider is by a mohel, as we're Jewish, and it is a much quicker than one done by a doctor; even that I didn't want to do. But anyway, I never really thought about it, cuz I was convinced I was having a girl. So I go into labor, midwife comes over. While we're doing the paperwork, she asks if it's a boy, if we're going to circ. DH looks at me, I look at him and say, "Well, I don't know". Dh says, "Why not?". I'm in labor, so I'm not up for a debate. I just tell him it isn't necessary. So I end up having a beautiful baby boy. All is well. But dh does get the numbers for a mohel and an obstetrician to discuss circing. Over the next few days, the subject isn't discussed as we are busy with the baby, but all I can think about is how there's no way in hell I'm letting someone cut my baby boy..........I have tremendous regret and guilt having had ds1 circed. Anyway, I broach the subject with dh and he can't understand why I don't want it done, especially since I had ds1 done (dh isn't ds1's biological father btw). I try and explain everything. We go in circles. Basically, dh knows all the info on circing. He agrees that there isn't a medical reason for it, and the hygenic reasons for doing it are bs. He doesn't believe the sensitvity issue, though, or that the baby is in severe pain. So I ask him, WHY do you want him circed............basically, he wants it done out of tradition, as we are Jewish (I use the term loosely....I don't believe in the religion, and neither does he! He does, however, feel strongly about upholding the Jewish culture). He uses the whole "I'm done, my dad, my grandpa, for 2000 years that's what Jews have done". This drives me crazy because he isn't religous, and doesn't even believe in the religous reason for ciricing!!! He says he wants it done to honor our ancestors. Ugh!!! Well, we didn't have it done. And dh has been wonderful in supporting our decision (my decision, actually) to his family, who were horrified that we weren't doing it. But dh has told me that everytime he sees ds2's intact penis, he feels weird. It really bothers him that he's intact. I found a website that listed famous people who are intact and told him about it.........he was amused but asked, "Yes, but are there any Jews who aren't?" I did tell him that there is a growing number of Jews who don't circ, and even have ritual bris w/out the cutting. He didn't seem to buy that. Does anyone have any advice? Does anyone know of any websites that are about jews not cutting? Anything? Thanks so much!

[Frankly Speaking]

Jewish Intactivists

Grisandole:

You are right that there is a growing movement in the Jewish community against circumcision. There is also growing alarm against the infidels. Below is a list of names of people and organizations. Some I know to be Jews and some I suspect by their names. That is something you will be able to determine far better than I.


Paul M. Fleiss, MD, Medical consultant, writer
Hanny Lightfoot-Klein, Researcher, writer
Edward Wallerstein, Writer, Circumcision: An American Health Fallacy.
G.W. Kaplan, MD Urologic Center of North America
R. K. Winkelmann, MD, Urologist, Mayo Clinic
J. Steven Svoboda, J.D.; Attorneys for the Rights of the Child
Norm Cohen NOCIRC/Michigan
Moshe Rothenberg, C.S.W. Alternative Bris Support and Ceremonies
Ron Goldman, Ph.D, Jewish Associates of CRC
Nelly Karsenty, Author
Dean Edel, MD, Physician, Medical Correspondent to NBC News, Radio personality
Israeli Association Against Genital Mutilation, Jews opposed to circumcision
Af-Milah - Second Thoughts on Brit Milah, The Israeli Newsletter Against Circumcision


By doing a websearch, you will find many sites listing these people and organizations and probably more.

I believe that religion is the strongest motivator of people to circumcise their sons and those people will not be swayed. Do not expect this issue to ever completely go away within your family. Steel your son as soon as he gets old enough to begin to understand.



Frankly Speaking

[rsps]

You could just say that since in biblical times the boys weren't circ.'d in infancy but when they were older, that you want your son to decide for himself if he wants to do it as an expression of his heritage.

[rubylark]

moved to Spirituality forum

Hi all, I moved this thread over to Spirituality since this deals with the religious aspects of circ and since grisandole is looking to network with Jews who don't circ...although anyone (Jewish or not) can feel free to offer thoughts or advice.

grisandole, please be sure to go to www.nocirc.org and on the left side of their homepage you'll see a place to click on "circumcision and religion." They have some FABULOUS information available that deals with your exact situation.

Also, here's a link that comes to mind dealing with the topic of Jews who have chosen not to circ: http://www.noharmm.org/pollack.htm

And another that is written specifically to fathers who would like to circ but have a who wife wants to leave the child intact:
http://www.noharmm.org/appeal.htm

Finally, this is a link to a page that is filled with links to excellent articles. Since you know which areas or aspects of circ your husband might be most receptive to reading or learning about, you can pick and choose. I especially recommend an article written for men that you will find under the link called "Separated at Birth: Men's Health Magazine."
http://www.infocirc.org/articles.htm

Maybe you could suggest that if dh would find it meaningful to circ ds not so much due specifically to religion, but to "honor his ancestors," then it would be even more meaningful if ds got to make that decision of his own free will when he is a consenting adult. I could be totally wrong here, but based on whay you've said my gut feeling is that your dh would like to circ ds because dh doesn't realize the value, benefit and function of the foreskin, and because he wants ds to "match" him...not because it is religiously important. Maybe if you could weed thru the bazillion links I've provided & find something that you think might really be effective in explaining to your dh why your ds is LUCKY to be intact, then maybe your dh will change his tune? One last suggestion, if nobody here in Spirituality can put you in touch with Jews who have chosen not to circ just email Marilyn Milos at www.nocirc.org (scroll down on the left side of the nocirc homepage for an email link). Marilyn is familiar with every Jewish anti-circ group in the country and can swiftly put you in touch with them via email.

I hope maybe some of this might help....

Love, Jolene

[merpk]

Frank & Co.,

I really want to stay out of this ... so will just ask that you watch the use of inflammatory language.

Thanks, Frank.

- Amy

[shawna]

First I should say that I am not Jewish, so circ to me isn't a religious issue. I can see that it is for others, though.

When I was pregnant we talked about this issue, but not at great length. Dh was circ'ed so we just assumed, I guess, that we would have it done if we had a boy. Through my Bradley class we met a couple who were very anti-circ and they talked about it quite often to the point of getting on everyone's nerves. It was their big issue. They also refered to certain websites that show a circ, though I can't remember web addresses. Well, I could only watch 1 of 3. Crying my eyes out the entire time. Dh watched it on his own and a non-issue became a huge one for him.

So, that's how we changed our minds and we weren't even trying. He may be swayed if he were to watch one.

[EFmom]

I'm not Jewish, so I don't have any insights in that regard.

But, I've heard the argument that kids should be circ'd because their fathers and grandfathers are, and they should all look the same. Maybe ask your husband how he feels about female genital mutilation. One of the biggest reason that people continue to do that to their daughters, despite the unspeakable horror of it and the medical complications, is because their mothers and grandmothers have had it done and it is tradition.

Some traditions need to be broken. It's hard to be the one to do it, but somebody needs to step up to the plate and say enough, I'm not going to torture my infant.

[BelovedBird]

Originally posted by EFmom But, I've heard the argument that kids should be circ'd because their fathers and grandfathers are, and they should all look the same. Maybe ask your husband how he feels about female genital mutilation. One of the biggest reason that people continue to do that to their daughters, despite the unspeakable horror of it and the medical complications, is because their mothers and grandmothers have had it done and it is tradition

Tradition that is based on misunderstanding things is far differant than religious law based on, well, the word of G-d.

-BelovedBird

[BelovedBird]

Originally posted by Yammer



So it's to be Yahweh or the highway?

VERY snappy! What does it mean?

[glad2bemama]

Grisandole, my dh is Jewish, as well and has not circumsized our sons. I am not Jewish, so my circumstance is probably less complicated than yours.

I never even considered the "tradtion" aspect with our boys. Maybe I should have. However, it was dh's decision to not circumsize our boys...

Sorry that I do not have much to add here other than I will have to ask dh more about his family's feelings on this.

[merpk]

Very punny, Yammer, truly. The pronunciation of "yahweh" isn't remotely a Jewish or Hebrew thing, so the joke is yours alone ...

Any discussion of this on the circ board we got in trouble for. And I only opened my trap there to counter anti-religious bigotry that was apprarent to me just in lurking. In Spirituality it's a whole 'nother ball game.

And excuse me, but we Jewish observers of the mitzva of Brit Milah are routinely told by these loving mamas here that we are barbaric child abusers/mutilators. Sounds like their way or "the highway" to me. :

I will say again, as I have repeated and will repeat 'til my typing-fingers turn blue, that in my view, any form of circumcision seems unnecessary and arbitrary unless it is occasioned by a religious imperative. In that case it is an expression of a covenant between a people and their G-d.

If someone doesn't feel the pull of that covenant themselves, then it's their choice. If the original poster's DH feels the pull, they've got to work that out themselves.

If you all want to help them work it out, fine. I was merely asking that you please refrain from insulting Jews and Jewish ritual in the process.

- Amy

[Teresa]

Uh. . . maybe this should be in "The Case Against Circumcision?"

The original poster described her family as culturally, but not religiously Jewish and seemed to be looking for other like-minded families. . .

I know there's lots of stuff out there for alternative bris, but I suspect your resources for that will be more easily located on the other board!

[glad2bemama]

Ok, I should probably add that dh was not raised to observe his religion. However, he does feel "cultural" ties to it in many respects.

I can tell you that we did consider doing a naming ceremony, instead, but dh's family seemed...well, they thought it was rather odd. But, that is just their family. They thought we were rather odd for having a homebirth and planting the placenta, as well. In retrospect, I wish that we had done a naming ceremony or a blessing, or something, but that is another subject.

Perhaps you could look into an alternative bris like Teresa suggested? Would this help your dh?

[DashsMama]

You're not alone Grisandole! There is a growing movement among the Jewish community (even among some Orthodox) to abandon ritual circumcision. My husband and I are both Jewish and we chose to keep our son intact. We know other Jewish parents of intact boys too.

I, like amyrpk, don't understand why someone would want to circumcise for any reason other than a deeply religious conviction and commitment to fulfil this mitzva. It seems very wrong to me for your husband to use your child's body just to fulfil his own need for connection with his community. Since neither of you are religious, I would encourage your husband (and even you too) to find other ways to get and/or stay connected to your Jewish roots. My husband and I are not particularly religious either but my husband connects to his heritage by continuing the usage of Yiddish phrases he learned from his grandparents, and by enjoying Jewish humor and comedians. I study Jewish cooking, keeping Shabot, and kvetching.

For support, please check out the resources that rubylark posted. Also check out A Mother Questions Brit Milla This is the article that helped my husband and I decide not to circ. Please pm or e-mail me if you want to chat.

[merpk]

... even among some Orthodox ...

It fascinates me, this need to use Orthodoxy to validate the position.

I would be interested in validating of the Orthodox who decline to do a bris mila on their sons. And purely for the sake of integrity. I think a lot of folks are called "orthodox" in these circles for various reasons, none of which have to do with their devotion to lives of Torah.

The one link I've seen posted on MDC to an "Orthodox" anti-circumcision site was very, very surface ... meaning, if the whole thing was read, by someone with real knowledge of Jewish issues/lifestyle/lingo, it was apparent that the orthodoxy was not in the least.

If you want to make your point, do so honestly. That's my point.

- Amy

[Arduinna]

I think the problem with the Orthodoxy argument is that there isn't even agreement among Jews. I see alot of finger pointing over who is and isn't following Jewish law. Mostly it seems to come down to if you are doing less than me your not a good enough Jew and if your doing more than me then your a fanatic. That has been my personal experience, and was the main reason I left the faith. I found the whole one upmanship annoying and childish. I can tell you that most of the Jews that we saw at services were just like the nominal Christians I grew up with. They went to Sabbath services and did the Bris and Bar/Bat Mitzvah and that's it. Maybe they did Hebrew school. And the whole arguments over my Rabbis said this and your Rabbi said that, well I just don't get it.

As a Jew you have two Choices, follow your heart or follow your Rabbi. If your lucky the two agree, if not you've got a decision to make. Good Luck making it.

Even when I was Jewish I told DH I would NOT be Circing.

[grisandole]

Thanks sooooo much for the replys....I don't have too much time to post right now, but I'm glad that everyone took the time to respond. I also want to say that I don't want to start a debate about either religion or the "case against circumscision"; we've already made up our minds, we aren't going to do it. My question was (and is) is if anyone had suggestions on how I can make dh feel better about this. As time goes on I suppose he'll just get used to it, but I want him to understand and have faith in our (mine) decision. And I'd like to clarify that for dh, it wouldn't be religious, he doesn't believe that circumcision is a covenent w/God. He wanted to do it for cultural reasons, much like non-Jews want it done for the boys to look like their fathers. For dh, it wouldn't be for ds2 to look like him, but to show respect for his ancestors that did this, and the fact that the Jews were persecuted for so long. I agree that there's WAY better ways to show your respect, but that seems to be dh's issue. Also, while he does know and agree that circing has no medical value, he is unaware of the sensations that are lost due to it.....I'm going to give him some articles about that. I did originally post this in ghe circing form, but it needed to be moved because religious issues aren't allowed there, so it was put here. Hopefully more Jews that haven't circ'ed will respond. Thanks again for the responses, you all have given me some good advice and ideas.

[grisandole]

Arduinna, I SO agree with you! I think your view on Judiasm appies to all organized religion, which is why I consider myself Pagan. And dh and his family proclaim to be so Jewish, but don't attend services, don't follow ANY of the laws, and really don't believe in the religion. They are cultural Jews, which is perfectly fine, but that's what makes the circ isssue (which really isn't an issue cuz we didn't do it), difficult. If dh was truly a religious man, and believed in the faith, I would give his feelings a fair chance. But to do something I feel is unnecessary to honor ancestors is silly to me.

[Arduinna]

That was the exact argument I made with my DH over circing. And ours was hypothetical. We have a dd. But when we were TTC I wan'ted to get it decided and let him know how I felt. I didn't want to deal with it when the baby already arrived.

My DH was raised going to hebrew school and went through to confirmation at 14 I think. I know it was after his Bar Mitzvah. Anyway, when I met him he only went to Shul for High Holidays and the anniversary of his fathers death. I was the one that wanted to convert, I was the one that wanted to be religious. But I still wasn't going to to Circ. I think I ignored the possibility when I was converted, but once it became a real possiblility I faced it and myself. We had many heated arguments. His reasons were always cultural and never because "God said so"

I never could understand the cultural reasons. But we never had to really decide (though my mind is/was made up) because we don't have a ds. I hope you can work things out so he is comfortable. What sold my dh was the purpose of the foreskin, and my belief that if "God" really wanted it that way he would have made it that way to begin with. At least that was my argument.

We have since both left the faith and are Pagans.

[grisandole]

Arduinna, I'm glad to know that my dh isn't the only one who had this issue! I was raised w/out religion......my family thinks that organized religion is "bad", and my parents lean toward eastern spirituality. My grandparents are much the same way, but are slightly culturally Jewish. Growing up, we celebrated Xmas, Easter, and Hanukkah, but only for the family aspects, nothing religious. I never went to temple. Anyway, being raised in such a way naturally resulted in me being extremely curious about religion and going through phases......wanting to be Catholic at age 11, and reading the Bible.......around 13 wanting to be a "real" Jew and I really wanted to go to temple and hebrew school but didn't. I had always felt drawn toward pagan beliefs, and eventually I settled into that. However, I started to become interested in Judiasim again a few years ago, when ds1 started becoming interested in religion and asking questions. We were active with a small congregation for a while, and I toyed w/Orthodoxy........then we moved in with dh and moved from Southern California to Northern CA, and started looking for a "new" Jewish community; this is we encounterd all the hypocricy you were mentioning above. Then I started getting disillusioned, and eventually I couldn't reconcile the fact that they believe in only one god with my belief that there are many gods/goddesses. So I "left". DH's family doesn't go to temple on a regular basis, but once their kids get close to 12, they send them to Hebrew school so they can have a bar/bat mitzvah. They do this because "that's what you do", and to get money for the kids from all the relatives and friends that go. I find this ridiculous......but hey, it's not my deal! But when this attitude is used for circing it is my concern! I think once I give my dh the info about what is lost w/circing he will feel better. His family is good because they haven't mentioned it again, and are respectful of our decision.