What do you consider unschooling? - Page 2

[2tadpoles]

Originally Posted by Dar

You can call whatever you want "unschooling", but words are generally only useful for communication when there's some agreement about what they mean.

I've yet to visit an unschooling forum where there is total agreement on what it means, except for the forums where the unschoolers are rabid and chase off anyone who doesn't follow their own personal model of unschooling. That's why threads such as this one keep popping up.

I don't know anyone else who defines unschooling as "Anything except school at home", but you can be the first.

Gee, thanks. I'm glad to have your permission.

If you're sick of labels, why do you seem so anxious to claim this one? <snip> So why does being labeled an unschooler somehow make you "cool" or something?

Wow! I didn't realize that I came across as "anxious."

Yeah, I guess we're more eclectic, but there are few resources for eclectic schooling, and those that do exist frequently refer to unschooling resources for ideas and information. Eclectic schoolers tend to draw on both unschooling at school-at-home experiences, and the unschooling experiences/discussions are something I personally find more useful for our family. I have no desire to appear "cool," but thanks for the insinuation. Are unschoolers the home-ed version of the "popular kids" in high school or something? :LOL

Funny how you fussed at me for being "unkind."

I do see people trying to broaden the definition of unschooling so they can claim it too. And yeah, I object to that, because for me the whole point of the term is so that when someone asks about our homeschooling, I can use a word to describe it and people will know what it means.

I think the definition of unschooling was fairly broad until fringe groups claimed it for themselves. I think that if a person is an AP, TCS unschooler, she should call herself that, rather than just saying "unschooler" and trying to make that word automatically include AP and TCS.

[clothcrazymom]

I was just having a discussion with someone else about this whole thing. It seems that there are many out there that feel that they are "unschoolers" if they are just not using a packaged curriculum. Some even do the "school hours" or whatever too. I ran into someone who says they are unschoolers and they do the curriculum thing but don't have regular school hours.

It's all so odd to me.

I've said it lots of times....I also don't really care for the term "unschoolers" for many of the reasons that were posted before. I say my sons are intact not uncircumcised...etc.

I don't really know what term fits best. I sortof just think we are all learning naturally and don't really care what others think about it.

[Dar]

Originally Posted by 2tadpoles

Yeah, I guess we're more eclectic, but there are few resources for eclectic schooling, and those that do exist frequently refer to unschooling resources for ideas and information. Eclectic schoolers tend to draw on both unschooling at school-at-home experiences, and the unschooling experiences/discussions are something I personally find more useful for our family.

So what's wrong with utilizing those resources without calling yourself an unschooler? Heck, you might even find the people easier to get along with if you hung out with that POV - "I'm an eclectic homeschooler and I find value in what you're doing and want to learn more about it" - than coming in saying you're an unschooler, which apparently didn't work out for you. I hung on some veggie boards for a while and got some great recipes, and great info, and I wasn't vegetarian and never claimed to me, but everyone seemed happy to help me develop more veggie-ness in my life. If I had gone in claiming to be veg even though I regularly ate meat, I may not have received such a friendly greeting...

I have no desire to appear "cool," but thanks for the insinuation. Are unschoolers the home-ed version of the "popular kids" in high school or something? :LOL

Beats me. I just can't figure why so many people (including you) want the label.

Funny how you fussed at me for being "unkind."

You were unkind. And offensive. You said that people who extend unschooling philosophies into the rest of their lives were extremists and "unparenting", and then you compared strong feminists to Nazis.

I think the definition of unschooling was fairly broad until fringe groups claimed it for themselves. I think that if a person is an AP, TCS unschooler, she should call herself that, rather than just saying "unschooler" and trying to make that word automatically include AP and TCS.

TCS and AP have never been part of this discussion. I don't see them as having anything to do with unschooling, and I generally don't claim either label. And the idea that unschooling must spill over from learning to the rest of your life also came from you, although it can... but no one said it had to.

Dar

[barbara]

Originally Posted by ErikaDP

Barbara,
Thank you for such a well written reply. I just love the comparison between unschooling and the toddler learning to walk and talk. It is so sad that natural instinctive learning has been replaced by most in our world with educational goals and artificial milestones. I hope that you don't mind me using your example in the future.

gee, thanks! Feel free to use the example. Spread the love!

peace,
~b

[2tadpoles]

Originally Posted by Dar

So what's wrong with utilizing those resources without calling yourself an unschooler? Heck, you might even find the people easier to get along with if you hung out with that POV - "I'm an eclectic homeschooler and I find value in what you're doing and want to learn more about it" - than coming in saying you're an unschooler, which apparently didn't work out for you.

Okay. I'm sorry my viewpoints bother you.

You were unkind. And offensive.

So were you.

You said that people who extend unschooling philosophies into the rest of their lives were extremists and "unparenting"

No, that is how you interepreted it. I said that parents who let their kids run wild and call it unschooling are "unparenting." You and others here have complained that people who have structured days and use textbooks/workbooks, etc., are calling it unschooling. I think it's equally inappropriate to just be a lazy, permissive parent and call it unschooling. I do know people like that, even if you don't.

and then you compared strong feminists to Nazis.

No, I did not. Feminists are people who believe that women should be treated as social equals to men and that they should have all the same choices that men do. Feminazis are women who hate men and hold them responsible for all of society's ills, think all women should hold careers, and look down on women who stay home with their children. Often, when one uses the word "feminist" in mixed company, it's the latter image that comes to mind for people because the feminazis are the noisier of the two. Strong feminists and psycho, man-hating feminists are NOT the same thing in my book.

TCS and AP have never been part of this discussion. I don't see them as having anything to do with unschooling

Neither do I. But there are plenty of unschoolers who will not hestitate to tell someone they aren't unschooling if they don't follow those sorts of parenting practices.

[Dar]

Originally Posted by 2tadpoles

No, that is how you interepreted it. I said that parents who let their kids run
wild and call it unschooling are "unparenting."

You said, "I've known several unschoolers who extend unschooling philosophies into all areas of life<...> I feel they are extremists; I think people who let their children take the lead in everything are unparenting, not unschooling. Children were provided with parents for a reason, IMO. "

No mention of running wild. You called parents who extend unschooling philosophies into all areas of life "extremists", and said they were "unparenting", and pretty clearly implied that such parents aren't doing their job as parents.

You and others here have complained that people who have structured days and use textbooks/workbooks, etc., are calling it unschooling. I think it's equally inappropriate to just be a lazy, permissive parent and call it unschooling. I do know people like that, even if you don't.

I've never said that unschoolers couldn't have structured days or use textbooks. We tend to have pretty structured days here, because Rain has a lot of committments (and I have more than my fair share). And some unschoolers used textbooks - my experience with unschoolers has been that really young kids often want workbooks, and so do teens (or textbooks), for whatever reasons. I do suggest that an unschooling parent who finds that her child is wanting a lot of textbook work, especially when it's not related to another goal, should look long and hard at the messages the child has been getting about learning and being smart, because I've know many unschooled kids who at some point start to respond to the societal messages about these topics (pretty hard to avoid).

Lazy and permissive parenting never came up, until now. I'm not sure the word "permissive" has any meaning in my parenting philosophy, because we're into that sort of power structure. And I have issues with the word lazy, just in general... I have a hard time just labeling someone lazy like that. Ariel Gore said, "It takes a heap of loafing to raise a kid" (actually, first Gertrude Steain said, "It takes a heap of loafing to write a book", but the same idea seems to apply) and I'm a great loafer...

No, I did not. Feminists are people who believe that women should be treated as social equals to men and that they should have all the same choices that men do. Feminazis are women who hate men and hold them responsible for all of society's ills, think all women should hold careers, and look down on women who stay home with their children.

Hmmmm... clearly you have some biases here. I think this is a caricature, not a real person, but there are definitely women who feel strongly about these issues. That's not the point, though. The Nazis committed a horrific genocide, killing millions of people, and using the term to refer to women who hold ideas that you don't agree with is offensive.

Strong feminists and psycho, man-hating feminists are NOT the same thing in my book.

Psycho as in mentally ill? Another offensive term you may want to delete from your vocabulary.

I've had friend who were gender seperatists, who would probably fulfill your criteria for "pycho" and "feminazi". They basically wanted to live in a world without men, so did their utmost to create a world where they didn't have to interact with men. Were they a little strange? Yeah, totally. But they didn't hurt anyone, and they had some good points buried in their ideas.

dar

[mamamoo]

Ouch! I am sorry that I posed this question...I really had no idea that it was such a touchy subject.

Barbara~That *was* an amazing description, thank you!!
I am going to bow out, too much tension here for me, and I really do appologise for starting this. May we just let it fall to the next page?

Hugs, Debi

[2tadpoles]

Dar, I'm sorry that I'm not as warm-fuzzy-gentle-PC as you are. If you find my speech and mannerisms offensive, then I suggest you skip my posts rather than lecture me. I already have a mother, thanks.

You say your gender separatist friends never hurt anyone. They were prejudiced against men, but that doesn't hurt anyone, right? So my prejudice against the separatists doesn't hurt anyone either. We're all entitled to opinions. You have every right to live however you want, and I have every right to openly disagree with it, and vice versa. I'm not telling you to change. You're telling me to change.

You may have the last word.

I want to apologize to the rest of the posters for the hijacking of this thread. I'm done with it.

[Dar]

Calling the other person "PC", IME, is usually an attempt to defend one's prejudices and the isms behind them. I'm not sureabout "warm and fuzzy"....There have been lots of threads here about re-examining biases, I'm sure you could find them. I find certain words you use offensive, and part of my commitment to creating a less-prejudiced world is calling people on them. There are ways to share your opinions without namecalling - actually, namecalling generally never moves a discussion forward.

If my friends who were gender separatists had gone around calling men Nazis, I would call them on it, but they didn't. Their reasons were similar in ways to the reasons a lot of mamas here give for not shopping at large chain stores and restaurants.

You have the right to believe what you want, and if you post it here I have a right to tll you why I disgaree. You have the right to say what you want, and I have the right to tell you when you're saying something offensive. I do the same with my co-workers, when they talk about how "retarded" a test was. When I taught high school, my kids would say things were "gay" when they didn't approve, and I called them on it.

Dar

[Claudette]

In our house, homeschooling is life. I refer to what we do as unschooling, simply to give others a reference point, but basically we don't have any plans for learning anything in particular, ever, we just live and through living we learn the stuff we need to do the things we need and like to do...

We don't do any kind of school, we just live.

We also DO have expectations of our kids; they are expected to participate in the community that is our home, they help with cleaning, gardening, shopping. They also help with planning trips, and make decisions about where we will live, or what we will do on the weekend... So, in our house unschooling is a world than describes that we learn from life itself without seeking out lessons, or being continuously conscious of the process...

[isismama]

Thank-you Dar for speaking up about the really offensive things said on this thread about feminists!

I would define unschooling as completely allowing a child to learn about what she is interested in her own way without outside restrictions, control, or interference (and not forcing or requiring her to learn about things she is not interested in).

I do try to extend the unschooling philosophy into other aspects of life such as eating and sleeping. I don't agree with all aspects of radical unschooling but I appreciate it nonetheless.

I *do* think that John Holt in his later years moved very close to radical unschoolers. I have read essays of his where he very clearly extends unschooling into all aspects of a child's life (and when truly unschooling it is hard to seperate "unschooling" from "other aspects of a child's life" isn't it?).

[Brisen]

I don't really have any thoughts about what unschooling is, though when I think of it I suppose I identify it with the "radical" unschoolers. But when I've mentioned the term unschooling to non-homeschoolers, they have always thought it meant a process to detoxify the kids from school, or something.