Help! My Kids Have Too Much Power!

[annettemarie]

I really, really, really need some practical advice. I have three little ones- Michael, age 5 1/2, Katie Grace, age 3, and Nicholas, 10 months. We try so hard to follow attachment parenting principles- co-sleeping, extended breastfeeding, baby wearing, gentle discipline, and all that good stuff. I was abused as a child and have been going to counseling, and one thing that I'm realizing is that my kiddos have waaaay too much power.

Michael is very bright, and very verbal. He can be very loving and sweet. When he doesn't want to do something (which seems to be most of the time) he spits, screams, throws things, slams doors, calls names, etc. This is happening all the time. Somewhere along the way he got the impression that he was in charge and could make the rules, and only has to listen when it suits.

Katie Grace just ignores us, all the time. She has no concept of consequences. She just sort of floats around doing whatever she wants.

I was a teacher before I had children, and have a masters in early childhood education, but I am totally at a loss. It is important to me that they respect and listen to me and their father.

My counselor thinks I shouls spank them. Other than that, she's pretty good, but I really do not want to start hitting them.

I look forward to "talking" through this with you.
Annette

[maya44]

Ok we know spanking is not the answer and you certainly feel what you are doing is not the answer.

So let's see what might be at work here.

Can you give me some examples.

I mean, lets say you ask DS to do something. And then he says no. What happens next? Do you repeat your request, try to explain why it needs to be done or what?

Let me tell you what I do.

Me
Please pick up your doll

DD 1
NO!

Me.
You need to pick up your doll, someone is going to trip over it. (this is only explanation she is going to get)

DD
No one will trip

Me.
Pick up your doll DD
(Important here, I don't get into debate about whether or not someone will trip. From here on out it is just one message: Pick it up, please)

DD
No

Me
Nada. I just kind of stare at her and wait. Kind of like I am impatiently waiting for a bus to come and its late.

MOST of the time, she then picks it up. Without a debate on physics (i.e. whether humans will or won't trip on objects left in their paths) to distract her she simply has my request kind of hanging over her head..

When she does so, I say "thank you." NOT "why didn't you just do it the first time I asked.

If she won't do it and it needs to get done (so someone won't trip) then I do it and say calmly but sternly "I had to pick up your doll. That was your job. I dont' like it when I have to do that."

I do not respond to any arguments that she then makes (like "i was going to do it, you just did not give me the chance)



There are no other consequences to her disobedience other than me being unhappy with her.

You will be amazed at what a powerful thing that is.

[annettemarie]

Well, here's an example from tonight:

Me: Michael, while you are waiting for Daddy to be ready to read you a story, please pick up the stuff on the floor of your bedroom.

Michael: (screaming) I HATE picking stuff up. (Spit)

Me: Michael, your choice is to pick it up now and have time for story, or you will spend story time picking it up.

Michael: (crying) Even the stuff under my bed?!? I hate you poopy head.

Me: Michael, go to your room and get to work putting your blanket back on your bed. I'm not arguing with about this.

He continued crying, I realized how tired he was and cuddled him a little, and then sent him to his room to pick up the stuff. He did it without a problem.

Too tired to think of another example...

Annette

[maya44]

It seems to me that maybe nighttime is not a good time to disucss picking stuff up.

And if you look at my last post, you can see that I don't think you need to even dole out a consequence like "pick it up or no story."


Just tell him earlier in the day that you want his room cleaned up before story time. You can remind him. You can even help him. Just don't argue with him.

Right before story time, if its not picked up you can either

1) do it yourself while telling him "I do not like having to pick up your room, its your job" Which might bring on him crying or telling you that "its too hard". But that's ok. The thing is you've made your request, he has that demand on him and even if you do the job the demand has not gone away

2) let it go until morning when he is not so tired. Tell him he needs to do it. don't even argue about it. Just let that demand sit over his little head until its done (unless it really needs to be done, in which case do it yourself while making it clear, it was his job, and you are not happy.

[NatureMama3]

In my experience, something that can help with general unwillingness to cooperate is actually not enough structure in their lives. They FEEL very insecure and react to that by doing things that get them more of your attention.

I'm NOT by any means saying run a military school, but sometimes having some predictability (whether it's a time-line or just a regular routine) can help alleviate some of the refusal-to-cooperate problems.

Something else that comes to mind as I read your posts is that one shouldn't say "please do" unless there is an option NOT to do which will be accepted.

I don't say "please put on your shoes it's time to leave" because that's not optional. They need to put them on right then. I DO say "please eat your dinner" because they DO have the option of not eating and I WON'T react harshly if they choose not to.

Please is a great word for sure, but like all words it has a time and place and not all situations call for it.


I also agree with finding a better time for room pick-up if it seems that bedtime is a battle zone for that. We find that just before dinner they still have enough energy to do that and are motivated. Completely cut out that bedtime battle!


It doesn't sound to me like your kids have too much power, just that they're still a work in progress and it conflicts with your own changing understanding of boundaries, respect and power. Give them time, give yourself time, you'll all grow and be better of for following gentle discipline.

[maya44]

Originally Posted by NatureMamaOR

In my experience, something that can help with general unwillingness to cooperate is actually not enough structure in their lives. They FEEL very insecure and react to that by doing things that get them more of your attention.

I'm NOT by any means saying run a military school, but sometimes having some predictability (whether it's a time-line or just a regular routine) can help alleviate some of the refusal-to-cooperate problems.

Something else that comes to mind as I read your posts is that one shouldn't say "please do" unless there is an option NOT to do which will be accepted.

I don't say "please put on your shoes it's time to leave" because that's not optional. They need to put them on right then. I DO say "please eat your dinner" because they DO have the option of not eating and I WON'T react harshly if they choose not to.

Please is a great word for sure, but like all words it has a time and place and not all situations call for it.

Naturemama,

Maybe it wasn't clear from my post but I am not asking them I am telling them. I don't use the word "Please" in the form of a question I am not asking a question like "will you pick it up please?" . Its just that my tone is polite (that's why I said , my "message" is "pick it up please" but my actual words were "Pick it up DD" I wanted to be clear the feeling of the words is not harsh or rude.

Indeed, my motto is never ask a child a question unless its ok for them to say no. So I will ask "Would you like to go to the park" but not 'Are you ready to leave the park" when we HAVE to leave the park.

[annettemarie]

I had wanted to add something, but was really tired last night and wasn't sure how to phrase without sounding like a religious fanatic, is that it is very important to us- morally? spiritually?- that the children obey. While I agree that I need to find better ways of phrasing things and better times to ask them to do things (and, by the way, Michael would scream and spit us at no matter what time of day we ask him to pick up his room), we also feel strongly that they need to obey (or at least be working on learning to obey) and they definitely need to show respect. After all, we don't spit at them and call them names.

Structure is something that has been sorely lacking lately. We start homeschooling next week, which should help a little.

I say "please" when making a statement to, I don't know, soften it up I guess. I can see where that might be confusing to a child, so that's something else to work on.

Much as I would like to think that just the very thought of my displeasure would be enough to spur them into obedience (Have you ever heard of St. Therese of Lieuseax? She had that kind of relationship with her parents... sigh!) I think we are waaaay beyond that. Frankly, they don't really care if I am pleased or not. I know there is a movement to raise little ones without consequences, punishment, whatever you want to call it.I think consequences are useful; I just want them to be appropriate and effective. Spitting in our face and screaming at us is inappropriate behavior, no matter what happened in his mind to cause it.

Hope this makes sense and I don't come off sounding like a whackadoo.
Annette

[candiland]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

Well, here's an example from tonight:

Me: Michael, while you are waiting for Daddy to be ready to read you a story, please pick up the stuff on the floor of your bedroom.

Michael: (screaming) I HATE picking stuff up. (Spit)

Me: Michael, your choice is to pick it up now and have time for story, or you will spend story time picking it up.

Michael: (crying) Even the stuff under my bed?!? I hate you poopy head.

Me: Michael, go to your room and get to work putting your blanket back on your bed. I'm not arguing with about this.

He continued crying, I realized how tired he was and cuddled him a little, and then sent him to his room to pick up the stuff. He did it without a problem.

Too tired to think of another example...

Annette

It sounds like your ds is very sensitive, much like my dd.

I've noticed that when we're tired and frazzled and I make a request, it ends up in a power struggle.

OTOH, when we're tired and frazzled and I "love her up" for a little bit before demanding something of her, it calms both of us and gives us a chance to reconnect and realize how important we are to each other. That ability to be "present" with each other reminds us to respect one another, if that makes any sense.

So.... let's say it's getting close to bed time. I'm probably running around, trying to do some last minute stuff. I take a few deep breaths and center myself. I sit down with dd and read a book, smell her hair, talk about our day for a few minutes, cuddle, etc. I then gently insert into our conversation: "Oh my goodness! Look at what time it is! Holy cow, it's almost story time!" I add some lighthearted, silly banter, ya know? "You know what? I noticed that you have toys all over the floor in your room. How about we go in there and work together and pick some stuff up?"

It's sometimes overwhelming when you're feeling tired and out of it to organize things and complete tasks. Especially for a child. Maybe he needs some help getting started... when I'm feeling foggy-brained, I often need a jumpstart. For example, you could help him by saying, "Okay, do you want to put all the blocks in the blue container or do you want to put your trucks in the toy box?" That way, he won't really have to sit there and think about how to organize what. It would probably help avoid a meltdown.

You could use that idea for pretty much anything that goes on.... when the kids first start "acting out", realize that this is their call for you to get on their level and "be present" with them for a little while. That, alone, can avoid a situation where you guys become so disconnected and frustrated with each other that it ends in disrespectful behavior.

[maya44]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

Much as I would like to think that just the very thought of my displeasure would be enough to spur them into obedience (Have you ever heard of St. Therese of Lieuseax? She had that kind of relationship with her parents... sigh!) I think we are waaaay beyond that. Annette

I really think that many parents think this way, but they are wrong. They "think" that this is not ennough but often it is.

Please read a great book called "It's not fair, Jeremey Spencer's Parents, let him stay up all night" by Anthony Wolf.

Its about being a "tough parent" without punishment, threats or bribes. Wolf does believe in some consequences and so do I, but not ones unrelated to the offense at hand.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

My counselor thinks I shouls spank them. Other than that, she's pretty good, but I really do not want to start hitting them.

This is setting off alarms for me. IMO, if she thinks it would be appropriate and beneficial to spank your children, then she obviously doesn't respect children. Because of that, I would deeply question any of her parenting advice.

For me, when I get really stuck in a negative pattern with dd, reading an inspiring parenting books really helps us get back on track. "How to talk to kids so kids listen" (or something like that--check the sticky at the top of forum), and "Kids, Parents, Power Struggles" by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka are 2 great books that address the issues you are having right now (in a way that is *respectful*) to kids.

[Lula's Mom]

When my daughter was about 1.5 years old, some moms on another board I was on starting having discipline problems with their little ones. They found a book they really liked and recommended, called Love and Logic Parenting. The authors' last name is Fay. I went ahead and got it too, because I anticipated having the same problems. So far I have not with my daughter- she actually is the type who will do or not do something just for my happiness. But I don't count on that forever...

So anyway I have this book, and though it reads kind of simplistically and repeats itself alot, I like the ideas it presents. It says to give your child lots of choices about things when you don't care which one they choose. Always give a choice, right down to "Would you like to go home from the amusement park now, or in five minutes?" The trick is to always give choices that are acceptable to YOU, no matter which one they choose. If they don't choose in 30 seconds, then you choose for them, so it's not debatable. This way it seems to them that they're getting a lot of power over their lives, and when something really important comes along, you can say "It's my turn to make a choice now."

They had some advice about picking up toys that I haven't had to implement yet, but I will if I have to, because I think it would work. I think it would work best if you pick a time to try it when it's his favorite toy. Here's the scenario:

You: It's time to pick up your toy now! Would you like to do it, or do you want me to do it? (happy voice)

DS: You do it! I hate picking up toys. (Spitting optional )

You: OK. (Smiling sadly and speaking calmly.)

Then you pick up the toy, and put it away-AWAY, as in, somewhere he can't get it, like the top of your closet.
The next day, when he's looking for it, tell him (again, in a sad and sympathetic voice)

"I know you wish you could play with it! But since you wanted me to put it away for you, you'll have to wait until tomorrow to play with it."

Then he cries and carries on, and you are sympathetic but firm. He has to play with something else.

The point of the book is that 1) there's no better way to learn about consequences then by experiencing them and 2) in life, a lot of times you don't see those consequences coming, so no need to tell him exactly what will happen if he doesn't do it himself. He had a choice. And next time, knowing what happened, he may well choose to put it away himself.

I KNOW this would work for my sister's kids, but she spends all her time yelling at them instead. What I liked about this book was that it was very gentle- no yelling, only sympathy when your child makes a choice that leaves him unhappy. I don't want to be at odds with my child; I want her to know that Mommy's always on her side.

Anyway I hope this makes sense, and I'd recommend reading this book. There's a lot more to it that I haven't mentioned. It gives tons of specific examples, so when a situation arises you can remember what you're supposed to do. I think it will take practice to train yourself this way, but it would be worth it!

Good luck!

[clothcrazymom]

Originally Posted by Lula's Mom

You: It's time to pick up your toy now! Would you like to do it, or do you want me to do it? (happy voice)

DS: You do it! I hate picking up toys. (Spitting optional )

You: OK. (Smiling sadly and speaking calmly.)

Then you pick up the toy, and put it away-AWAY, as in, somewhere he can't get it, like the top of your closet.
The next day, when he's looking for it, tell him (again, in a sad and sympathetic voice)

"I know you wish you could play with it! But since you wanted me to put it away for you, you'll have to wait until tomorrow to play with it

YIKES!

Ok I just don't get why someone would do this! If one is offering a child an option then it needs to be a real choice. I find this very manipulative. If you are offering the child a choice in picking the toy up or having you pick the toy up then they should be able to make that choice without a consequence. What you are describing is a situation where a child is NOT knowing what the consequence is.

And the whole emotional thing is very manipulative too.

I think there are much better ways to go about things. Tell the child what it is you are wanting and why. Let them know if there are consequences. Pick your battles in life too.

The thing with the OP scenario....I agree that I would pick a different time to do this. I would also probably have it be more of a fun activity and I would make it into a game where we both were doing it. I think it's important to access the situation and to always try to be as proactive as possible rather than reactionary.

Consequences, discipline, punishment are all very different things. I think most on here are all for consequences (natural and logical) and discipline (gentle) but not for punishment. And hopefully it is not about a child doing something because they want to please others. That is not something that I really want to instill in my children.

Personally, I'm not one for structure with children but I do believen in rhythms and working within them.

ETA: I agree about the counselor. I would find it very hard to take advice from someone that promotes spanking my children.

[Lula's Mom]

If you read the book you'd probably get more of an idea about why this works. I don't think it's manipulative at all, actually. Manipulation would be trying to coerce them into doing something that you (general you) want them to do, but they don't want to do it. But with this, you're not. You're allowing them to make their own choices, and then either be happy with what they chose- or not. And that's the way real life works. Next time, hopefully they've learned something from their own experience, and they will make better choices.

It IS a real choice, because you're fine with it either way. If you pick it up, fine, no problem. But then it's yours for a day. If he picks it up, great. No fights! It's only the first time that it would be a surprise. The OP says her children do not know there are consequences for their actions... that's one thing everybody needs to learn.

I agree there are limits to what a child should do to please others. For instance, Lula does not have to kiss anybody, including me, if she doesn't feel like it. It's her body, her affection to give, and I don't ever want her to feel she HAS to give of herself physically just to make someone else happy.

Having said that, in my house, we DO do things to please one another. It's only polite. If I spend a long time cleaning the house so it looks nice when DP comes home from a hard day's work, I won't be happy if my daughter drags out her play-doh, paints, markers, crayons and paper all at the same time. I have no qualms letting her know that we're putting everything away because I like the house to be clean in the evening. And because she feels empathy for other people, she has no problem putting things away so I will be happy.

ETA:Another thing about consequences. When somebody tells you something is going to happen, I don't think that's nearly as effective as seeing what happens for yourself. For instance, I think I probably let my daughter have more freedom than other kids I see out and about, in that I allow her to run, jump, play, climb. I hear parents say constantly "Don't do that! You're going to fall and break your neck." But then it never happens, and the kids think their parents don't know what they're talking about! And they stop listening. So within reason, as long as she's not in real danger of being seriously hurt, I let Lula do stuff that may result in a scrape or a bruise. I watch carefully and I'm right there to pick her up, but she's learned so much from making her own choices. And because she doesn't hear "no" all the time, she actually listens when I do say it. The 'choice' thing carries over into many areas of life. It teaches self-discipline, and she'll need that later on.

[Jane]

Another recommendation for love and logic.
http://www.loveandlogic.com/Pages/0700parents.html
Take what you like and leave the rest.

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

For me, when I get really stuck in a negative pattern with dd, reading an inspiring parenting books really helps us get back on track. "How to talk to kids so kids listen" (or something like that--check the sticky at the top of forum), and "Kids, Parents, Power Struggles" by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka are 2 great books that address the issues you are having right now (in a way that is *respectful*) to kids.

Thank you! "Talking" with you all online has really helped me to realize that we just need to get back into a routine, and also need to say what we mean and mean what we say (in a loving way of course!)

I think there is a broad spectrum of gentle discipline tactics, just as there is a spectrum in discipline in general. For me, I am not willing to abandon consequences altogether, but I also would rather not resort to playing the emotion card "That makes me so sad when you..."

One other thing I wanted to mention, we try very hard to have rhythm and routine in our lives; that is what I meant by structure.

Annette

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by Lula's Mom

The point of the book is that 1) there's no better way to learn about consequences then by experiencing them and 2) in life, a lot of times you don't see those consequences coming, so no need to tell him exactly what will happen if he doesn't do it himself. He had a choice. And next time, knowing what happened, he may well choose to put it away himself.

I don't know about the smiling sadly part, but I do agree with what you wrote here. This is a pit I fall into alot- I keep thinking, surely if they understood what was happening, what needs to happen, and what the consequences are and why, they would make the "right" choice. I guess I am grossly overestimating the logical thinking ability of my little ones!
Annette

[captain optimism]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

Well, here's an example from tonight:

Me: Michael, while you are waiting for Daddy to be ready to read you a story, please pick up the stuff on the floor of your bedroom.

Michael: (screaming) I HATE picking stuff up. (Spit)

Me: Michael, your choice is to pick it up now and have time for story, or you will spend story time picking it up.

Michael: (crying) Even the stuff under my bed?!? I hate you poopy head.

Me: Michael, go to your room and get to work putting your blanket back on your bed. I'm not arguing with about this.

He continued crying, I realized how tired he was and cuddled him a little, and then sent him to his room to pick up the stuff. He did it without a problem.

I am looking at this and I am thinking, "Hey, she's good! She didn't back down but she was able to be flexible about how tired he was." (and also thinking, self-deprecatingly, I don't know if I could do that, stay calm in the face of a 5-year-old meltdown!) I especially liked how you were able to cuddle him and be affectionate and then continue to insist that he take responsibility for his things.

I get what you are saying about the importance of children honoring their parents. It's a really strong value. I think, if you are staying that calm and on message, that you are inculcating it.

I came back to say that the part I liked about what you did was the way you acknowledged and defused your son's feelings, not the threat of consequences. What I really like is when parents can be "soft"--acknowledging feelings--and also "tough"--insisting on good behavior, like cleaning up. I can hear in your little dialogue that your son got a little panicked that even if he tried, he wouldn't be able to get everything in his room picked up in time. You gave him space for the feelings and then he was able to do it.

You are a great mom and I am going to try to keep this little story in my mind as I mom along.

[MomInFlux]

Originally Posted by Lula's Mom

They had some advice about picking up toys that I haven't had to implement yet, but I will if I have to, because I think it would work. I think it would work best if you pick a time to try it when it's his favorite toy. Here's the scenario:

You: It's time to pick up your toy now! Would you like to do it, or do you want me to do it? (happy voice)

DS: You do it! I hate picking up toys. (Spitting optional )

You: OK. (Smiling sadly and speaking calmly.)

Then you pick up the toy, and put it away-AWAY, as in, somewhere he can't get it, like the top of your closet.
The next day, when he's looking for it, tell him (again, in a sad and sympathetic voice)

"I know you wish you could play with it! But since you wanted me to put it away for you, you'll have to wait until tomorrow to play with it."

Then he cries and carries on, and you are sympathetic but firm. He has to play with something else.

I don't think it's fair to the child if they don't know the consequence in advance, and I don't like the sad and sympathetic voice. My variation on the scenario would be this (but we don't actually do this in my house):

You: it's time to pick up your toy now. Would you like to do it or shall I?

Child: You do it! I hate picking up toys!

You: If I have to pick up your toy, I'll put it away and you won't be able to play with it tomorrow.

Child: I don't care!

Next day, child asks for toy. You remind child that because they wouldn't pick up the toy, they cannot play with the toy today. They can play with the toy tomorrow. All is said in a matter of fact, even cheery voice, without tones of guilt or saddness.

[annettemarie]

Thanks, captain optimism. Sometimes part of the solution is recognizing there's a problem (or something like that- I sound like Dr. Phil!)
Annette
PS- Love the Gilbert and Sullivan references

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by MomInFlux

Next day, child asks for toy. You remind child that because they wouldn't pick up the toy, they cannot play with the toy today. They can play with the toy tomorrow. All is said in a matter of fact, even cheery voice, without tones of guilt or saddness.

OK, this I could totally buy into! Annette