Help! My Kids Have Too Much Power! - Page 2

[annettemarie]

OK, another scenario

At our house, we have quiet time. This is non-negotiable. Michael plays in his room quietly for an hour, Katie Grace is supposed to be napping, and Nicholas and I nap downstairs in the chair (between night nursings and the side effects of Zoloft, I need the nap!) Lately, Katie Grace has been refusing to nap- OK, whatever, I think she needs a nap, but I won't die if she doesn't get one- but she also insists on running around upstairs, playing in the bathroom, bugging her big brother... WWYD?
Annette

[fullofgrace]

Are there quiet activities that are easily accessible to her that can keep her busy? I'm thinking crayons & paper, books, puzzles, etc. I can sooo understand wanting to just sit in one place for longer than five minutes, but the needs of kiddos sure don't let that happen often. LOL

I wonder if she may be seeking out some special one on one time with you, too. I know I ran into that with DD#2, so we reworked our daily 'routine'. She really no longer needed a nap, so she and I played quiet games and did quiet activities while the baby slept when we could (or I took her into the yard to play if she felt like being loud). Remember too, that by us sitting down with them and playing like that, we're teaching them how to do these things on their own. So maybe later in her little life she can play on her own.

My kids now have their quiet play time when I can tell they need it, and MY personal 'quiet time' got moved to after DH gets home. My 20-30 minutes is on the family schedule now along with everything else, because I'm exhausted at the end of the day with 3 kids (2 with special needs)!

Do you have a yard you can take her to so she can run off some of that energy while the baby sleeps and Michael is playing quietly in his room, having HIS personal time? If you live in an apartment I can see where that might not work, which is why I ask.

[Dragonfly]

Disclaimer: I'm totally not knocking you, Lula's Mom. My comments are directed at the "logic" of Love and Logic.

Originally Posted by Lula's Mom

If you read the book you'd probably get more of an idea about why this works. I don't think it's manipulative at all, actually. Manipulation would be trying to coerce them into doing something that you (general you) want them to do, but they don't want to do it. But with this, you're not.

Perhaps not the first time it happens, because they have no idea that there is any consequence to you picking up the toys (which, by the way, I think is totally unfair).

The second time, though, you are totally manipulating them into making the choice you want them to make. If the alternative is having their toys taken away and they don't want that to happen, then they're forced to make the other choice. I don't know how I feel about that (because, truly, it's also unfair for a parent to have to trip over a toy over and over again... though there are surely other options that could be discussed between parent and child), but let's still call it what it is - manipulation.

(And I also don't like the sad, sympathetic voice. You do something to a child that you know they're not going to like and then affect sadness and sympathy? It really doesn't seem genuine - and kids pick up on that stuff).

I'm totally with you on the playground thing, though, Lula's Mom. It makes me cringe when I hear parents (all the time) say things like, "You're going to break your neck!" or "Don't do that! You're going to fall!" to their children. Besides the fact that it's likely not to happen and your child is going to learn that you don't know what you're talking about, they might just stop doing anything that challenges them.

The point of the book is that 1) there's no better way to learn about consequences then by experiencing them

This I do agree with and when negative consequences to a choice are unavoidable, it's definitely my role as a parent to cushion the blow by forewarning him. But it seems that this sort of thinking can lead to a somewhat "black and white" vision of parenting - either it happens the way the parent wants, or it happens a different way and the child experiences something negative. There are often other ways - real choices - where everyone can win.


For example, in Annettemarie's picking up the toys scenario (though I also wouldn't try this with my ds when it was bedtime ):

Me: Michael, while you are waiting for Daddy to be ready to read you a story, please pick up the stuff on the floor of your bedroom.

Michael: (screaming) I HATE picking stuff up. (Spit)

Me: Me, too! I really hate picking stuff up! You know what else I hate? When my stuff gets broken because I leave it out and people step on it. I know! Let's do it together... maybe we can have a race.

(By this time, ds is often pretty gung-ho and comes up with other ideas of ways we can have fun doing it).

On the occasion that he's tired and he's really not up for it, I might give in, but say:

I can see that you're really tired. Let's make a deal. I'll pick them up this time and next time we do it together. Deal?

(We've been making deals for a long time, so he's used to this).

Just some ideas, anyway.

[captain optimism]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

At our house, we have quiet time. This is non-negotiable. Michael plays in his room quietly for an hour, Katie Grace is supposed to be napping, and Nicholas and I nap downstairs in the chair (between night nursings and the side effects of Zoloft, I need the nap!) Lately, Katie Grace has been refusing to nap- OK, whatever, I think she needs a nap, but I won't die if she doesn't get one- but she also insists on running around upstairs, playing in the bathroom, bugging her big brother... WWYD?
Annette

Can Katie Grace stay in her room quietly for an hour, the way Michael does? I don't know, my impression of the three-year-olds in my life is that they have a hard time controlling themselves. It sounds like she might need an alternate activity. Oh, I see that fullofgrace posted the same thing.

Another idea, if this makes sense: maybe the quiet time needs to be at another time of day, so that she can also nap. Then you can sleep and she will also be less fragile. (that's what we call it when our little guy hasn't had enough sleep! He gets fragile!) I'm just thinking that maybe this isn't her naptime, the time when she feels sleepy.

You started this thread with a title that made me think that your children were running wild, but it sounds like you have thought really well about how to keep things on an even keel. I know people whose toddlers really do run the household, and this doesn't sound like their houses.

[Lula's Mom]

Originally Posted by MomInFlux

All is said in a matter of fact, even cheery voice, without tones of guilt or saddness.

I think I didn't explain it right then. You don't ever express sadness that the child is not doing what would make you happy. It's not a guilt thing AT ALL. You don't ever say that his behavior is making you sad! You express sympathy for the way the child is feeling, and the smiling sadly is in acknowledgement of their feelings. You know they're sad/mad/whatever, you can hear that, you comfort and understand them.

But you still enforce the consequences at the same time. That way, the child doesn't look at you as the "mean mommy" who's doing this to him. No, you're on HIS side! You know he feels awful! (Especially because he (hopefully) realizes he created this problem for himself)! You feel sure he will make a better choice next time! It's all very gentle and not guilt-trippy at all.

I'm glad Apricot likes this book too; it really does make sense if you read it. Some parts of it (especially the phrases they tell you to use) make me roll my eyes. But a lot of it is good advice. In looking it over, I was wrong. It actually says you should tell them "You can keep all the toys you pick up!" But tell them once, not over and over. If the toys still lie there, then you pick them up cheerfully without a word. The next day, when he asks where they are, you say "When you pick them up, you get to keep them. When I pick them up, they go in my closet." With sympathy. It's just saying don't ask repeatedly, and don't mention a consequence without following through.

[captain optimism]

I guess, looking at your problems and the way you are coping with them, I am thinking that you should be giving parenting lessons to this counselor of yours. Also to a lot of the people who are giving you advice on this thread. (Of course including me, because I have not BTDT--I have only one small baby, and we are completely in his thrall, bwahaha ha! but I digress.)

What it sounds like is, you have some reasonable expectations of your children, you are consistent, and you are loving. There are three children and they are all very young! One is at an age that I am coming to dread--she is (organ chord) three! You are tired--so understandable!--but even so, you don't freak out when they do, you understand that they are the children and you are the mom and you don't get scared by their feelings.

You need your counselor to support you in the parenting you are doing now. Set a limit with the counselor, tell her you expect her to stop talking about spanking. If she spits and cries and screams, give her a hug and then tell her again.

[mamaduck]

I agree with CO that it sounds as if you do a wonderful job maintaining your family and home in a peaceful way. Just because it is not easy does not mean you aren't succeeding.

I feel a little foolish jumping in on this thread on page two, but I wanted to say that for *me* -- adjusting my language and the concepts behind that language went a long way toward promoting peace in my home and in my relationships with my children. This is not so much practical advice as it as possible mental starting place.

For example, I don't believe that your children have "too much power." Though maybe they have the wrong *sort* of power. Rather than one of you having power "over" the other, it might be helpful to begin thinking in terms of "power with" your children. And they as needing the sort of personal power that allows for cooperation and an understanding -- Your family being powerful as a team. Instead of stiving for obedience from my children, it has helped me to think in terms of striving for *cooperation* from them. If I try to teach them that *I* am the one in power and its their job to "obey" then I am usually setting myself up for an advisarial interaction. If I think (and speak) in terms of coaching them to cooperate with me (the way people who live together and care for each other NEED to cooperate) then I have better luck.

So for an example like cleaning up toys, I would stop and think about how I might feel if my spouse demanded that I get the dishes washed before crashing with a novel at night. Yes, its usually best to have the dishes done. But does he know why I skipped it tonight, and does he understand how tired I am? It usually goes better if he first says, "Can you get the dishes done sometime?" And if I say yes, his next question might be, "When do you plan to get to it, and do you need my help?"

So if my child refuses to clean up his room at bedtime, I might suggest we set a time for the next day that he will agree to do it. And then hold him to that appointment for the next day, at a time when he is energetic, and lend whatever moral support and help that I have at my disposal when that time comes.

[annettemarie]

You know, I was resting in the chair with the baby (after fielding a call from my husband, our Suzuki teacher, and the MOPS coordinator- don't they know it's quiet time!?!?) thinking, you know, I really am not as helpless or weak as I made myself out to be. I know in my heart what to do, I just need the energy to do it. One thing I am trying to work out with the depression/counseling/life is the answer to the question am I lazy or just tired? I am one tired mama.

I love my babies, but they *are* close together. I discovered after Nicholas was born that two-and-a-half years apart is great, if you're only going to have two. Once you have more, it gets a little hairy! :

Anyway, quiet time. What she needs is to nap. Sigh. Truly, she does. She gets crabby and overtired if she doesn't, If she doesn't nap at quiet time she is miserable by 5. Last week big brother was at day camp, and Katie Grace, Nicholas, and I all curled up on the chair and napped from 11-noonish. It was so nice. But, if she doesn't sleep. she has a tape player, dolls, books, a doll house, and a few other little things in her room. They don't have too much in there because we try to keep their rooms peaceful. Maybe I will try sending her up late morning instead. But you know what- I need a nap too. I know it seems ridiculous for a grownup to need a nap, but around one I get exhausted and just about drop. OK, OK, as I'm writing I realize that I need to figure out why I'm so tired, but for now, I also need that nap. I'll keep thinking about it; I'm sure a solution will come to me...

For the record, she didn't nap today, but did stay in her own room. I just asked her what she did and she said, "I don't know, I played a little with books." One thing I have been doing is setting the timer to keep their quiet time an hour only.

Just a word about the counselor She really isn't all that bad. Where I live, you are lucky to find anyone who doesn't beat their kids. I've moved further along with her than any other counselor, and have really made a lot of tough but positive changes in the past few months, including restoring my relationship with my daughter, which was going downhill, partially in response to lingering PPD and a horrible relationship with my own mother. I just so want to get this parenting thing right, you know? I know you all know!

One more thing- two books I'm reading are "Loving without Spoiling" by Nancy Samalin and "Common Sense Parenting of Preschoolers and Toddlers" by Bridget Barnes. I bought the second one at a La Leche League conference two years ago
and am finally getting around to reading it.

Thank you all for your advice and hugs and positive words- I'll probably keep this topic going as problems present themselves- have I mentioned the five-year-old is obsessed with drum corps and music, and that I am going absolutely buggy from the constant drumming?

This is a great board for AP Mamas- thank you!
Annette

[NatureMama3]

Just a few more thoughts.

Have you tried laying your daughter down beside you for a nap? That way you all get the nap that's needed. In my experience a child of that age is far more likely to nap when beside Mom.

As to obedience, of COURSE that's good. Very necessary skill to learn. The key being they must learn it on their own. It must be something they internalize as desirable and beneficial to themselves. No amount of coercion (whether physical, emotional or otherwise) can "teach" them that. Those will only teach manipulation, fear and resentment.

We've been learning (since coming to GD) that it starts with US. As unpleasant a thought as it is, we have to look at ourselves for the flaws we see in our kids, fix those, THEN work to encourage good behavior in the kids. If we disobey traffic laws for instance (by speeding, etc) that lesson is NOT lost on the kids. If WE neglect a chore regularly, that lesson is NOT lost on their little minds.

It also has helped us to realize that what we desire is not to control our kids, it's for our kids to control themselves. It's FAR too much energy (physically and emotionally) to try to control something which when you think about it you have NO control over. We humans can only really control one person: ourselves.

Anyway, good luck!

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by NatureMamaOR

Just a few more thoughts.

Have you tried laying your daughter down beside you for a nap? That way you all get the nap that's needed. In my experience a child of that age is far more likely to nap when beside Mom.

Unfortunately, as much as I would loooooove to snuggle her all during quiet time (really!) the times I have tried it she has been determined to bug the heck out of and/or wake up the baby. She's a pip!

I really liked everything you wrote. My "goal" in discipline is for them to be intrinsically motivated to behave in a socially acceptable way. I don't want to manipulate them, trick them, punish them, etc. I just want to love them and have the world know them for the awesome kids they are!

DH and I definitely have some work to do ourselves. We have gotten into bad habits. Did I mention that my DH is a pastor, and my kids are PK's. My worst nightmare is that they end up like the stereotypical preacher's kids! :

[LittleYellow]

Just a thought on intrinsic motivation to pick up....

I know for me when I look at picking up as a chore it feels heavy and plodding and not fun at all - if I look at the same task as something challenging and/or playful it makes all the difference to me.

At the musuems I work at most of the staff see picking up as a huge chore and make comments to the tune of "why can't they use the exhibit the way it was designed?, "why do they have to move stuff around". I however LOVE picking up at the museum because I've found things to challenge my mind. I love to see where pieces have been moved to - to see creative play in action. I love to make different designs with the pieces - its a very relaxing process and artistic as well. After things are put away it is so interesting to watch the kids and if my design has influenced the play at all.

With kids I've worked with, I've been able to frame the process of putting things away as still within the play. Sometimes this means that kitty (the child) is putting food (the blocks) in thier bowl (the block bin). Sometimes this means I do a silly arrangement of the toys and they follow up with another silly arrangement and we can laugh together. Sometimes this means joining me in sorting the colors/shapes/textures etc. Sometimes this means parking the trucks at the truck yard. Sometimes this means putting the animals to bed.

I just try and have as much fun as I can picking up (by myself or with kids) always looking for a unique way to approach it and it works quite often in keeping kids and myself intrinsically motivated.

[NatureMama3]

With kids I've worked with, I've been able to frame the process of putting things away as still within the play. Sometimes this means that kitty (the child) is putting food (the blocks) in thier bowl (the block bin). Sometimes this means I do a silly arrangement of the toys and they follow up with another silly arrangement and we can laugh together. Sometimes this means joining me in sorting the colors/shapes/textures etc. Sometimes this means parking the trucks at the truck yard. Sometimes this means putting the animals to bed.

yes! that's exactly what we do. The twins LOVE pretending to be "grapple skidders" (logging equipment) and will pick up just about anything that way. We alternate between that and "garbage truck".