successful nurse-in at starbucks! - Page 2

[guerrillamama]

Originally Posted by kaismom

Not all states have laws in fact less than half do and moms who are discriminated against in these backwards states have no legal recourse. Case in point the Wal-Mart class action suit which just went to walmart on appeal in ohio. Moms here are just SOL. and they still talk about it as a class 4 misdemeanor and ticketable offense around these parts. This is the reality.

I'm glad shes pushing them further the large corporations in this country need to be held accountable and we need them to start promoting breastfeeding. Imagine how wonderful it might be if every corner starbucks and walmart had little breastfeeding welcome here stickers on the windows.

i thought i read somewhere on these boards that actually NIP is legal in all 50 states, it's just that only some states have laws affirmatively protecting it. not true?

[Sustainer]

Originally Posted by guerrillamama

i thought i read somewhere on these boards that actually NIP is legal in all 50 states

That's absolutely true.

from the LLL site:

Mothers have a right to breastfeed where they go with their baby, even if that is out in public. It does not matter whether the mother goes to a public or a private place, or even whether they are in a state with legislation. No one has the right to tell a mother how to feed her baby, especially a way that increases the risk of illness to both mother and baby! Legislation has been enacted in nearly one-half of the states in the U.S. because they want to clarify this right, and in some cases, provide a remedy for mothers told to stop breastfeeding. It is hoped that legislation will help to change society's attitudes that breastfeeding is something indecent and should not be done in public. Underlying this, is the goal to increase the rates and duration of breastfeeding recognizing that this is an important health choice that must be encouraged.

…

It is important to remember that women have a right to breastfeed in public whether there is a law or not. The purpose of legislation is NOT to legalize it, but to clarify the fact that women have the right to breastfeed in public, or that it is not a criminal offense, such as indecent exposure. Thus, if you are in a state that does not have legislation, you still have the right to feed your baby where you go.

[Bluegrass]

Just wanted to post the reply I got from the folks at Starbucks:


Thank you for contacting Starbucks Coffee Company.



Starbucks welcomes a broad and diverse group of customers to its stores, including nursing mothers. In an isolated incident, a nursing mother in a Maryland Starbucks store was asked to cover up while breastfeeding her child. Maryland recently passed a specific law that prohibits any person from limiting or restricting a mother's right to breastfeed in public. This law applies to all Maryland businesses. When we learned of the Maryland mother's complaint, we quickly apologized for her negative experience. Additionally, to help us ensure compliance with the Maryland law, we sent a reminder to stores in the state reinforcing the law. We believe this is the best way to educate all of our Maryland store partners (employees) on the issue.



While Starbucks does not have a formal policy regarding mothers breastfeeding babies within our stores, we welcome nursing mothers to our stores. Starbucks complies with all applicable state and local laws regarding breastfeeding.




Again, thank you for contacting Starbucks Coffee Company.

[kaismom]

It is true that there was a federal court decision that gives moms a legal right to breastfeed in public everywhere in the US. Several states and communities have also passed their own laws to that effect. While moms in states w/o a law may have a legal right they do not have a legal recourse if they are discriminated against. This was the case in Ohio with the Wal-Mart decision. I don't have a legal mind and dont know how it all works and how you deal with discrepencies btwn federal law and state law etc. But the state laws are more than simply a formality. And businesses in ohio discriminate rampantly and without concern for legal reprecussion.
(There is also some discussion that the ohio walmart case somehow creates a legal precident for business who wish to discriminate against bfding moms)
Ohio reps tried to pass a law recently and it was voted down by our conservative government. I'm currently working to pass a state law but it may never happen given our conservative political climate. That is why we need businesses to say breastfeeding is ok here.

[nataliekat]

I'm so glad this is all in the media. This is how we increase awareness, ladies!

Right on to those mamas making noise when they get harrassed!

[Lula's Mom]

Is the Wal-Mart bfing case in Ohio the one where the women sued on the basis of sexual discrimination? In reading the court's decision on that one, it really sounded like they rejected the womens' claim under sex discrimination law. Not that they didn't have a case, per se, but that their lawyers tried to used the incorrect law to support it. The decision was that it's not sex discrimination to tell a breastfeeding woman to leave(they could say, "Hey, we'd tell a breastfeeding man the same thing! ) I guess if there's not an explicit protection-of-breastfeeding rights-law in Ohio, they were kind of reaching to figure out how to file it. I think they should have tried human-rights law. I think that's how they do it in Canada.

As to the federal law... I could be wrong about this, but I thought that law explicitly protected breastfeeding anywhere on federal property in the US that a woman has a right to be with her baby. I don't think it said "anywhere in the US."

[guerrillamama]

http://www.lalecheleague.org/LawBills.html

Originally Posted by Lula's Mom

Is the Wal-Mart bfing case in Ohio the one where the women sued on the basis of sexual discrimination? In reading the court's decision on that one, it really sounded like they rejected the womens' claim under sex discrimination law.

that's right.

I think they should have tried human-rights law. I think that's how they do it in Canada.

yeah, but the US doesn't really *have* a jurisprudence of domestic human rights law, and of course international human rights law doesn't apply to us because we are superior to the rest of the world and abide by a totally different standard... :Puke please don't get me started.

As to the federal law... I could be wrong about this, but I thought that law explicitly protected breastfeeding anywhere on federal property in the US that a woman has a right to be with her baby. I don't think it said "anywhere in the US."

that's also right.

In September 1999, President Clinton signed into law the "Treasury and General Government Appropriations Act," which included legislative language by Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney (D-NY) to make breastfeeding legal anywhere on federal property.
http://breastfeed.com/resources/articles/bflaw.htm

i just found this excellent and very up to date summary of state NIPing laws, courtesy of LLL:

http://www.lalecheleague.org/LawBills.html

LLL insists that even if your state does not have a law legalizing NIPing, that does NOT mean NIPing is illegal. in fact, NIPing is not illegal anywhere. kellymom and every other advocacy site i looked at said the same thing.

the difference is that Walmart is a private company. they have the right to ask people to leave for reasons that are not illegal. think of those "No Shirt No Shoes No Service" signs that you see in many stores. of course it is perfectly legal to walk around barefoot. it is legal (for a man ) to walk around shirtless. but a private store does have the right to refuse service and ask the shirtless shoeless man to leave. however, if he is sitting in a park feeding the pigeons, a cop cannot come up and cite him or arrest him; he is not doing anything illegal. so if you are NIPing in the park or at the bus stop or some other public place (fyi shopping malls are considered "quasi-public" - i would say public enough for this) then you are fine, even if your state does not have a law affirming your right to NIP. however, Walmart or any other private entity can ask you to leave, and the recent decision says this is not sex discrimination. (which is not to say that it can't be challenged on other grounds. i would like to challenge it based on the baby's right to be fed, but that was another discussion on another thread.)

there, i feel better now that i have had time to read and think about this.

[Lula's Mom]

Thank you, guerrillamama! That's exactly what I thought. It seems like it's such a murky grey area... since no state has a law against NIP, then it is not illegal. So technically, if something is not illegal, then it is legal, and you therefore have the right to do it. But I get what you're saying about private property vs. public places. I am glad that my state has a law explicitly spelling out that a woman does have the right to nurse anywhere, public or private, that she is otherwise authorized to be. I assume that trumps a Georgia Wal-Mart's ability to ask me to leave, even if it is private property? All states need to put it down in black and white.

[Sustainer]

You have a right to breastfeed in a department store even if you're in a state without legislation. They can ask you to wear shoes in their store, but they don't have the right to tell you that you can't breastfeed your baby there.

[guerrillamama]

Originally Posted by Sustainer

You have a right to breastfeed in a department store even if you're in a state without legislation. They can ask you to wear shoes in their store, but they don't have the right to tell you that you can't breastfeed your baby there.

yes, in the theoretical sense. that is, you and i and a ton of other sensible, conscientious people believe that we have that right. but there is no federal law or court ruling that says that we have that right. right? that is my understanding...

[Sustainer]

I don't mean that I wish I were allowed to breastfeed everywhere, or that I should be allowed to breastfeed everywhere. I mean that I actually do legally have the right to breastfeed everywhere. It isn't necessary for a court to grant me that right -- I already have that right. Just as I have the right to breathe without the court's permission.

[guerrillamama]

Originally Posted by Sustainer

I don't mean that I wish I were allowed to breastfeed everywhere, or that I should be allowed to breastfeed everywhere. I mean that I actually do legally have the right to breastfeed everywhere. It isn't necessary for a court to grant me that right -- I already have that right. Just as I have the right to breathe without the court's permission.

yes, that's what i mean too. i didn't express myself clearly. one of my favorite quotes - utah phillips quoting someone else - goes something like this: "freedom is something you're born with, like your eyes or your ears. then you wait for the government to take it away. the degree to which you resist is the degree to which you truly are free."

anyway, i was trying to clarify what the law says. until the law *says* we have the right to bf everywhere it is open to debate. if a case goes up to the supreme court and they decide completely wrong (and it wouldn't be the first time) and rule that we do not have this right, that wouldn't change my or your conviction that we have this right. (just like the Patriot Act has not changed my convictions about my rights of speech and assembly ) but the *legal* fact would have changed and everyone should know that. then we could all commit mass civil disobedience in nationwide nurse-ins and it would be awesome and we'd totally win, but that is beside the point.

my point is just, as far as i know, there is no federal law or supreme court ruling affirming our right to bf everywhere; therefore, as i understand it, unless your state has such a law, your right in private places *are* somewhat open to debate. you should still exercise it though!!!

ETA: but maybe i am missing something?

[Sustainer]

Originally Posted by guerrillamama

until the law *says* we have the right to bf everywhere it is open to debate.

No, I don't think it is open to debate. I definitely have a legal right to breastfeed everywhere, unless a court rules otherwise (and I can't imagine a court ever ruling otherwise). By default, I have the legal right to do it.