Considering Homebirth? Think Hard.... - Page 8

[Nabbe]

Well. Okay. I just thought to say that not all hospitals are the same. You live in Norway, you know that docs here dont overrule, like it seems they are doing in the USA. I am surprised to read about how docs do like they want. But same time, i dont think docs do that to save themselves, they do it to save the most important person here, the baby.

I rather read the norwegian "Gravid" magazine. Specially since i will be in it myself next month or december, dont know when hehe... But its always nice to know other aspects of life, and birth for that matter. I am a muslim, and some of the sisters i know here do actually give birth at home, of religious reasons (not that i agree with the religious reasons, but we all have our oppinion).

It is not comon here with home births, you know that. I dont live in a place where i could concider it anyway though, so for me it does not matter.

[bente]

[QUOTE=Nabbe]. I am surprised to read about how docs do like they want. But same time, i dont think docs do that to save themselves, they do it to save the most important person here, the baby.
QUOTE]
This is perhaps where the misunderstanding has occured.
No, US doctors are not trying to save the most important person here, the baby! This is why the US has one of the highest infant mortality rates of any westernized country!
I gave birth in a US hospital, my baby was hurt, I was hurt, all in the name of "hospital routine". When I asked the doctor at my 6 week check up why they did these things to me, she said point blank " it was a very busy night, I had 11 other deliveries and I don't remember you!". I then told her about how she had delivered my baby, and she just said "yes, I am sorry, I was busy, and by the way is your baby sleeping through the night yet?" I know it sounds insane, but these were her words and it happends all the time.

I disagree with you on the Norwegian doctors and midwife, they have procedures they have to follow that have nothing to do with you and your baby, and may not be the best for you.

Mothering is not pregnancy magazine, you should check it out

[Peppamint]

Nabbe- MDC is a rather large community now and it's harder to just jump in than it was when I joined two years ago. I noticed a lot of your posts have this tone, perhaps it is because you are from another country and it's just your manner of speaking? Maybe I have PMS.

Your tone on some of the pregnancy threads you have posted on have sounded anti-homebirth so I'm rather surprised you are here.

Perhaps until you have informed yourself with some INFORMATION and RESEARCH you could post. Until then, IMO it is better to lurk, read and learn.

I know I certainly would never go to a Formula Feeding board on another community and start advising them on how to do it because I have never fed my children that way.

[candiland]

I think that Nabbe is trying to discuss why SHE fears giving birth at home... she fears that it is dangerous because the hospitals where she lives do not have potentially dangerous routines to follow to save their own butts. So she figures she doesn't really have a need to avoid the hospital in the first place. Right?

Nabbe - a huge reason ppl choose to home birth is because midwives (generally) don't intervene unless absolutely necessary. At home, the risks of unnecessary intervention are much greater because it can lead to a cascade of interventions and problems that would've otherwise been avoided. A lot of times, hospital midwives and docs use medical intervention because it's there and readily available, and they have all the tools at their disposal if something goes wrong. That right there "ups the ante" and introduces danger that would have been avoided at home.

Also, our primal brains sometimes refuse to let our bodies open up in a strange environment. While our logical brain says "Okay, time to give birth!" our primal brain is programmed to keep our babies safe by shutting down until we're left alone. It's common for women's labors to stall or stop in a strange place, and they wind up with a host of potentially dangerous interventions that could have been avoided in the first place.

So even if I could find a hospital as open-minded as yours, I know that being in a strange place to give birth holds the potential to complicate an otherwise normal labor. It's not a risk I would take

[Victorian]

BUT, this is a homebirth forum. It is for homebirth. Mothering is PRO homebirth. I wish that you would read your posts and see how many times you are "being allowed" to do something or they are deciding to "let you" do something/have something--something that is your right. My homebirth midwives didn't allow me to do anything. I birthed.

I think that the big difference is that what the medical community views as medically necessary interventions are being used when there is no actual medical need. Telling you that a posterior birth is more dangerous is A LIE. If you didn't have an epidural and were not confined to bed, posterior births are not any more likely to have problems than any other birth. If was the INTERVENTION that was dangerous. Modern Obstetrics is NOT evidence based medicine. IT is a power trip on the part of doctors that enjoy running around "saving women and babies". The true heros in birth are the midwives that are sitting back like they have for millions of years and being the guards of birth. Keeping watch as women birth babies, doing what we know how to do at a cellular level.

Here in America, our c-section rate is 25%. That's right, 25% of American women are deemed to be unable to give birth vaginal to a baby. One out of every four women giving birth undergos SURGURY. This doesn't even take into account all of the epidurals, vaginal cuts, surgical births (i.e. forceps), IVs, restricted eating and drinking, restricted movement, and other crap that happens in the hospital. I think that we have very good reasons to avoid the hospital and the birth machine that is threatening not only the birthing family, but society as a whole (just think of the money that could be saved by normal birth, think of the lost bonding, the damage to the breastfeeding relationship, the trauma to the baby).

Victorian

[Sustainer]

Originally Posted by Nabbe

You dont get vaginal exams unless they feel its neccesary.

I don't know about there, but here they *always* feel it's necessary.

Originally Posted by Nabbe

But even at homebirths most midwifes check the dialation atleast from time to time.

At homebirths, most midwives *honor the mother's wishes.* My midwives didn't do any dialation checks during my first birth, and they only did one during my second and it was because I specifically requested it.

Originally Posted by Nabbe

You can eat and drink, unless there is a fear of complication wich might lead to c-sect.

Here, there is *always* fear of complication which might lead to c-sect.

Originally Posted by Nabbe

Besides, where i live now, with my noise level during birth, i dont think its so smart. Dont wanna scare the pregnant lady uppstairs lol.

There is an apartment right under ours and another one right next to ours, and we have thin walls. I thought I was making quite a bit of noise during labor, but no one heard a thing.

Originally Posted by Nabbe

I dont like the way people diss hospitals as if they were something very bad and something we must avoid, when sometimes we might need them to save our babies.

You told me not to criticize non-US hospitals until I've tried them. Now I will suggest to you that you not criticize the way we diss hospitals until you've tried giving birth in a US hospital. I know enough about hospital maternity wards (in the US anyway, and I suspect elsewhere) to know that they ARE something very bad and they ARE something to be avoided except in the rare instances when we DO need them to save the mother or the baby.

[Crystal_clear]

Originally Posted by Nabbe

I dont like the way people diss hospitals as if they were something very bad and something we must avoid

In the US, medical mistakes are the 4th leading cause of death. If that's not a reason to avoid hospitals, I don't know what is!!!! I can't imagine going to a hospital for *any* non-emergency, including birth.

[sohj]

Why is this thread here?

[Quirky]

Just to take this even further T

I am glad to hear Norwegian maternity wards are evidently better than they were 30 years ago, when my little sister was born in one (1975, at the University Hospital in Oslo). She was born close to Easter, and because my mom's OB was going on vacation, she insisted on inducing my mom. Moreover, the nurses had never *heard* of Lamaze breathing and refused to allow my mom to use it, even though she had successfully birthed my middle sister drug-free with Lamaze. The nurses and OB threatened to knock my mom out with drugs if she used Lamaze breathing "because she might have hurt the baby." double And she got yet another huge episiotomy, and delivered in lithotomy position (on her back). triple

Sounds like Norwegian hospitals, at least, have come a long way since then.

[gottaknit]

"You dont get IV unless medically neccesary. You dont get vaginal exams unless they feel its neccesary. You can eat and drink, unless there is a fear of complication wich might lead to c-sect. With my dd i could not eat... You can catch it, daddy can catch it, who ever wants to, in the Soft units only, not in the regular ward, i think. I dont know, i did not wanna do that myself, i was shaking too much. The water delivery thing here is another issue, but if you rent the pool yourself, yes, you can deliver in water, ofcourse. Even in the regular ward you can do that. I had a posterior baby and did not feel lied to. Everything i read conclude that it can be dangerous for the baby. "

This sounds absolutely no different or better than standard US hospital treatment of birth. "Unless they feel it is necessary" and they always feel it is necessary.

[MamaAllNatural]

Sohj, I have no idea either. I would like to take this moment to point out my DDDDC though.

Nabbe, please click the link in my sig to find out what MDC is all about.

[Nabbe]

This sounds absolutely no different or better than standard US hospital treatment of birth. "Unless they feel it is necessary" and they always feel it is necessary.
____________

I did not have any of those things mentioned if it was not for my epidural. IV is not neccesary for a normal birth. I never heard of anyone having IV withouth that it was for medication, its not neccesary.

[StarMama]

Originally Posted by Nabbe

But same time, i dont think docs do that to save themselves, they do it to save the most important person here, the baby.

Then why was I induced, AROM, given pitocin, mag sulfate, demerol, cytotec, and an epidural when I did NOT have pre-eclampsia?? When the nurse on the birth video after my son was born said "Oh, she probably didn't even have pre-eclampsia anyways" (they based my status of pre-elampsia by slightly elevated BP, still within normal ranges and protein in my pee sample when I had a ton of BLOOD SHOW, hence *protein*). All of those drugs, all of those dangers to myself and my child for the good of my child? No. Because they were too damn lazy to cath me to get a clean urine sample.

Yes hospitals have their places. Yes, it is a valid place to birth if you CHOOSE to. But its not just a place to go because its "less risky". Its not. Had my homebirth midwives (more like MEDwives ) stuck up for me and told me that I didn't have pre-eclampsia instead of just sending me off to my doom (or at least questioned me thouroughly enough to figure things out), I wouldn't have had all those drugs running around in my and my child's body. I would have produced enough milk for my son. I would not have had to supplement him with formula.

No its not all for the good of the child. Its for convience. Its because they are rushed. Its because they don't see all these things as dangerous or a big deal. Its because they want to bill as much as they can.

[sohj]

T

Originally Posted by MamaAllNatural

Sohj, I have no idea either. I would like to take this moment to point out my DDDDC though.

Ya know, last night AdrianneWe and I were talking about this place so much to a friend of mine (who doesn't have children, isn't even thinking of it right now), that she said she's got to check this place out. We suggested "Troll" as a user name, or "Trollster" or "Trollerific".

[MamaAllNatural]

:LOL You know, I am so jealous that you and Adrianne get to chat it up IRL.

Love the sig Sohj!

[Victorian]

WOOHOO StarMama - just saw that Orion is one and you are still nursing! We are too. SOOOO WONDERFUL!

Originally Posted by StarMama

Then why was I induced, AROM, given pitocin, mag sulfate, demerol, cytotec, and an epidural when I did NOT have pre-eclampsia?? When the nurse on the birth video after my son was born said "Oh, she probably didn't even have pre-eclampsia anyways" (they based my status of pre-elampsia by slightly elevated BP, still within normal ranges and protein in my pee sample when I had a ton of BLOOD SHOW, hence *protein*). All of those drugs, all of those dangers to myself and my child for the good of my child? No. Because they were too damn lazy to cath me to get a clean urine sample.

Yes hospitals have their places. Yes, it is a valid place to birth if you CHOOSE to. But its not just a place to go because its "less risky". Its not. Had my homebirth midwives (more like MEDwives ) stuck up for me and told me that I didn't have pre-eclampsia instead of just sending me off to my doom (or at least questioned me thouroughly enough to figure things out), I wouldn't have had all those drugs running around in my and my child's body. I would have produced enough milk for my son. I would not have had to supplement him with formula.

No its not all for the good of the child. Its for convience. Its because they are rushed. Its because they don't see all these things as dangerous or a big deal. Its because they want to bill as much as they can.

[StarMama]

Yeah Victorian!! I always mean to come post at the low supply tribe thread, but its so intimidating to read through all the old posts when its soooooooooo long!

Congrats to you! I see in your siggy your a student IBCLC, was the intrest perked by your problems? I've been pondering becoming an IBCLC as well, but it would be a LONG process if I did...

[hawleyclan]

IMHO The things that the orginal poster here doesn't understand are: Trust and Knowledge in Birth.

I've been at both ends of the birth service- hospital and home. The difference was that as I got more informed, I learned to trust the normality of the process of pregnancy and birth. I found I trusted the honesty, knowledge, skills and intentions of my midwife more than those from my prior hospital experience (which was pretty normal). I never felt at risk of unnecessary interventions, nor did I need to worry that my midwife would not have my best interests at heart- even in the face of unforseen complications.

As I became more informed, I also came to understand that although most births will have really great outcomes, sometimes there are difficult outcomes. Birth trauma happens, but it is more likely to happen with instrumental birth. And the fact is, no amount of interventions have reduced the incidence of cerebral palsy- which is one of the more "common" and questioned birth concerns. Also, sometimes babies die, it is a very sad truth. Statistics show that midwives have much lower rates of infant mortality- this plays out world-wide.

We didn't sue our doctor when my unnecessary episiotomy extended ripped through my anal sphincter and left me with huge incontinence issues... We didn't sue when our baby had a significant adverse reaction to their vaccination... We didn't sue when our doctor botched our son's circumcision (which may affect his sexual comfort later)... We didn't sue any of times our family has been misdiagnosed... see, we chose the care and the caregiver, and sueing doesn't change the outcome, and we elected to get on with our lives. If my baby died at birth or was born with significant life challenges, as long as I trusted my care provider, I would be devasted, disappointed, and demoralized, but in the end we would get on with our lives.

The choices our family makes are not the choices others would make, and we respect that. We didn't start out where we are at either, and there are many circumstances in life which shape who we become along the way... so nobody will have the same experiences, advice and opinions to share along the way.

This forum has been an awesome place for homebirthers to come for support and friendship during pregnancy and birth. We share what we know, and we know that pregnancy and birth are very normal processes for the majority of healthy women...


The Lord bless you!
Zoie
Wife of 10 years, Mother of 5 Beautiful Children- Patrick 9, Stu 7, Selah 5, Yosef 3, Timothy 1 ...
Waterbirthin'/ Breastfeeding/ Cosleeping/ SlingWearing/ Non-Vaccinating/ Non-circin'/ MidwifeHugging!!!!
"Homebirth Strengthens Families"

[ketilave]

I missed being notified of some of these posts and then got an email today...

The OP is/was trying to incite us. Let's not also weaken things by mothers/women turning on other mothers/women. I feel that is happening in more and more threads around here - I don't often come across someone who originally came here (like this OP) to cause problems but came here looking for support. Sometimes curiosity takes us to threads we think may be informational for us but forget to appreciate the diverseness of the community when we start to respond. We are human and therefor fallible; we speak from the egocentric perspective of our experiences.

I think women forget, or in some cases don't have a role model to lead them, how much power they have - many women who do find power and strength in themselves are comfortable birthing at home and IF require hospital births can have positive ones because they are informed, educated, strong and willing to speak for themselves.