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newborn down the hall? - Page 5

post #81 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuesday
I don't think I have the intellectual strength to debate in this point. I can understand why some people decide co-sleeping doesn't work for them. I love co-sleeping with my son and although I didn't plan to do it. As I've said before - I had no idea co-sleeping was a viable option. I just hadn't heard of it being done and no books I read recommended the practice. (I've of course now read Our Babies: Ourselves, etc. and am wiser.)

Last night, I realized how co-sleeping, even at 15 months (DS's age), is important. My little guy sat up, virtually still asleep, vomited the contents of his stomach and then literally fell over, on his stomach and lay, asleep in his vomit. I picked up the poor baby, cleaned him, held him, pulled out the dirty bed sheet and lay him down. He didn't wake up at all - poor guy - - turns out he has the flu (he's been sick all day). I was thinking I was so glad he was next to me and I could tend to him. What do people do when they can't see their child and they throw up in their crib? I'm not criticizing their decision because I know hardly anyone who doesn't put their child in a crib. I'm just saying, besides the absolute beauty of having my baby boy next to me, I am glad I was able to pull him up out of his vomit! (Sorry, if that is too much info!)
wow. I'm sorry your little one has the flu. I'm glad you were there! that must have been scary for him!
post #82 of 106
WOW! What a stimulating thread! I simply had a thought when I was reading all this. We really wanted to co-sleep with ds and tried, but like many others I had a terrible time sleeping with him and the noises, touching, movements, etc. I finally decided that him having a sane mommy was more important.

Now here comes the unique thougt. I was thinking that if co-sleeping were such a natural thing for people all over the world and so many mothers here, why is there a fairly substantal group of mommies that just can't sleep with there babies next to them? I think it is becuase of the way we have been raised. I didn't co-sleep with my parents as an infant and only on occasion as a child. But I was in my own room in my own bed for 19 years unil I got married. It go from all those years of individual sleep to sleeping even with my husband was near impossible. Even still we both have a hard time. But to add a baby to that was crazy for us. I think many mom's who were raised that way were able to adapt, but there are those of us who can't. And I believe it's becuase we had our own beds for so many years. That's something we cannot change. I desperately wish I could adapt, but I can't.

Now that doesn't mean I couldn't still co-sleep inspite of my difficulty sleeping like some mamas mentioned on this thread. I applad you! So yes, there is still a choice involved, but for those mamas to whom cosleeping comes easy, you must realize that there are those of us who really struggle with it inspite of our desire to. We are in some ways permante by-products of the western culter we were raised in.

I am personally not ashamed of my choice to put ds in his crib where we ALL sleep better. And yes I do wish I could adapt to the co-sleeping arrangment, and I still have a choice, but that's what I have chosen.

Side note to SNOWBABY. You should look into a crib tent by tots in mind. It may actually allow you to co sleep and even if you don't choose to, it will still keep your little one safe in the other room.

www.totsinmind.com

my 2c for what it's worth.
post #83 of 106
loving-my-babies: "this sounds so much like the "I was formula fed and I'm ok" argument. are you? really? can you tell me for certain?"

Okay, this time I'm not the one that got nasty As I said previously - I fully acknowledge my own neuroticism. But to answer the question that you posed instead of answering my question, nope i'm not okay - I'm a healthy neurotic, just like most of us! And, FYI, I was breastfed and I coslept with my parents and siblings because I was born in a different country and all five us (parents and 3 kids) shared one room because we were that poor (so, unlike you, my experience was direct and not based on conclusions I made while traveling). My mom tells me that my two siblings loved sleeping with her but that from day 1, I was the kind of baby who prefered my own space. She said she ended up having to set up a little cot at the other side of the room because I refused to sleep in the bed with them. Apparently, even during awake times, I'd hide under things or go out back so that I could play alone (I actually remember this stuff from when I was older). Even when we came to the US, my brother and I shared a room that was divided by a curtain from my parents' room. So, by the time I got to college and FINALLY had my own room to sleep in, I developed severe insomnia because, although I had craved a room of my own, I had never learned to sleep without someone else in the room. I wish I'd had that opportunity.

Anyway, just sharing a bit of personal history. We have been speaking in generalizations, but maybe if we understood each other's specific histories then we could see how individual we are (and were from the moments we were born) and maybe we could then have more respect for each other's choices because those choices would make sense.

Peace.

Edited to add: Ashley, we put a screen door on the baby's room so the cats can't get in. I looked into the crib tent and it's a neat invention, but the screen door worked best for us.
post #84 of 106
Quote:
Okay, this time I'm not the one that got nasty As I said previously - I fully acknowledge my own neuroticism. But to answer the question that you posed instead of answering my question, nope i'm not okay - I'm a healthy neurotic, just like most of us! And, FYI, I was breastfed and I coslept with my parents and siblings because I was born in a different country and all five us (parents and 3 kids) shared one room because we were that poor (so, unlike you, my experience was direct and not based on conclusions I made while traveling).
oh, I think I forgot to add, I was breastfed and we coslept too, we're also from another country! (where breastfeeding rates are 99% and mostly everyone cosleeps except no one calls it that) so, it was not just observing from outside, I have also been lucky enough to travel around, BUT my first experience with cosleeping and breastfeeding I learned from my mom and dad that loved me and let me join their family bed
post #85 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvenchrst

Now here comes the unique thougt. I was thinking that if co-sleeping were such a natural thing for people all over the world and so many mothers here, why is there a fairly substantal group of mommies that just can't sleep with there babies next to them? I think it is becuase of the way we have been raised. I didn't co-sleep with my parents as an infant and only on occasion as a child. But I was in my own room in my own bed for 19 years unil I got married. It go from all those years of individual sleep to sleeping even with my husband was near impossible. Even still we both have a hard time. But to add a baby to that was crazy for us. I think many mom's who were raised that way were able to adapt, but there are those of us who can't. And I believe it's becuase we had our own beds for so many years. That's something we cannot change. I desperately wish I could adapt, but I can't.
I have to agree. unfortunately, this society, or better said, this country, has been making mothers believe that cribs are better and formula is better for a really long time. only now people are able to come out of that and see that the books were wrong. this is the only country where there are the MOST families that "cannot cosleep. coincidentally, in this country, there are the MOST women that have too many difficulties breastfeeding and cannot overcome those difficulties. in other countries, people have no pumps, no breastfeeding books, no LC's to call, nothing. and yet, they are incredibly succesful at breastfeeding. This is why I am not being understood. I am looking at this from a global point of view. this is why I don't understand the "cosleeping didn't "work" for us" argument. because I believe if it were like this all over the world, at least 50% would not breastfeed and no one would cosleep. so, looking at it, like I said, globally, I think because these generations never coslept, and even if they did, were raised in a very "american, modern" way... this could affect what these mothers do today. I have always slept with someone. I think this is why it's so easy for me to cosleep. first, my parents, then, my siblings, then my husband.
post #86 of 106
A few comments I would like to make....

When I first got together with the kids' dad, and we slept together, I slept like crap. I really just wanted my bed back by myself. He snored, loudly, he took up all the bed, I had to shove him and try to reason with him while he barely could understand what I was saying. Well, after awhile, I just got used to it and we slept togther with not many problems.

Same thing with my kids. At first I was awoken constantly, I had to nurse all the time, my kids grunted, wiggled around, made it so I had a little corner of bed for myself.

I got used to it.

Would you dream of putting your SO in another room because he was too loud, moved around too much? Maybe you would, who knows, but from what most are saying here bedtime is the only time they have with their SO.

Now at the ages of 3 and 5, I'm so used to them in my bed that it is strange when they are at their dads house and not here. It's like if your SO, who you sleep with everynight is just not there tonight. You would miss having your SO in bed, even though he does snore or kicks your feet one too many times at night.

I want to add, that I'm very pleased that this discussion hasn't gone too far, and stayed in the realms of considerate debate. Gives me hope for the MDC world!
post #87 of 106
wemoon. I agree with you! this is what I always thought, it's not about "it didn't work for us" sometimes we have to make things work and it takes time and dedication.

just my opinion.. and I am too very glad we've been debating without being mean! :LOL

post #88 of 106
Quote:
Would you dream of putting your SO in another room because he was too loud, moved around too much? Maybe you would, who knows, but from what most are saying here bedtime is the only time they have with their SO
LOL Jeni - actually YES! When I am pg and/or have a small baby in the room/bed with me I *do* kick DH out of the bedroom. During 'normal' times when I am not totally sleep deprived or waking in the middle of the night I can get used to him, since once I fall asleep I am ok for the night. But when I am waking frequently and need to put myself back to sleep I simply can't have him in the room, so he goes and sleeps with one of the kids.
post #89 of 106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by loving-my-babies
fine.. you want to declare that sleeping in another room is cosleeping? go ahead. it wont chage my opinion or alter me or my thoughts in any way..

No one here ever said that sleeping in a seperate room is cosleeping. I'm going to attempt to salvage this...

The point is that in the same room is at least in some form, cosleeping. Of course sleeping in a seperate room is not and I'm sure everyone would agree on that. Interestingly enough, most people I know IRL who cosleep in any form regularly don't JUST cosleep. Most start the baby (not a newborn but...) in their crib and then when they wake to nurse bring them into bed and there they stay because mom is fast asleep. This will be my plan also. With a newborn I would keep him with me until the very second I get a water and head upstairs. Then into the bassinette he'll go as long as he are happy there. Right beside my head. When he is much older i'll put him into his own room in his own crib until I got to bed or whatever. I'm not going to bed at 7 or 8. I'm also not going to take naps with my kids. I never have. I don't have time to take a nap nor would all of my children sleep at the same time.


Houdini, just wanted to say that you aren't the only one. I really think that is because of the NICU experience. My DD is the same way. I used to drag the bass around the house for her since she wouldn't let me hold her. SHe has neurological problems added to that too and doesn't like to be held when she's tired or crying. It usually gets her more upset if you even talk to her. I jsut have to lay her down and back off. If she feel sure no one is going to mess with her she'll calm herself. I do know that happens to alot of NICU babies. I'm so hoping I never have another one.
post #90 of 106
Whew! Finally made it through all the posts.

To answer the original question -- no, in general, I do not think it's safer to have a newborn down the hall rather than in with you. Emi's due in 4 wks. I simply can't imagine taking this tiny baby who's literally never been seperate from my body for the past 9 months & having her so far away. Like lots of you said, I'd be a basketcase!

Snowbaby: ITA about people just tossing their pets when a baby arrives. My parents did this with the cat they had when I was born & I've always felt awful about it. We have NINE cats & 2 dogs. Of course we'll gladly get rid of them if they're a threat to Emi. DUH! We were lucky that we'd already made our bedroom the "cat free" zone of the house. It's the only place I can have houseplants that survive. Regarding the comment someone else made about wether your cats will or won't bother your baby, it really depends on the cat. We have several who I'm sure won't get anywhere near the baby for a long time & others who I know darn well will try to curl right up with her the first chance the get. We've had everything set up for several weeks now (crib sidecar onto bed, pack & play downstairs with topper on it to keep out the cats, etc) to let the pets have LOTS of time to get adjusted to that stuff & get trained. for doing the screen door. It's what we'll do at some point in the future when Emi moves across the hall. Only we'll put one on our room & one on her room so that they're both cat-free zones.

As for the whole "you're only *really* co-sleeping if you..." debate, I'm sorry, but this seems really silly to me. Shouldn't we all be here to support each other instead of judging who is & isn't doing co-sleeping "right"??? I really believe it's this type of attitude that turns people off to trying co-sleeping, breastfeeding, etc. Why can't we all just be respectful of the fact that we're all trying to do what works best for OUR family? I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the idea that there's only one way of doing things. Every family is different & whatever works best for your family is the best answer for you. I really, really believe more people would accept AP ideas if more of us took this approach.

Oh, and you'll notice I said what works best for your FAMILY not just your baby. Once again, what's wrong with a middle ground kind of solution that meets the needs of everyone involved? Sorry, but I refuse to believe that a baby being cared for by a run down, depressed, anxious mother is better off just because that mama is doing things the so called "right" way even though it's obviously not working for their family.

Just my 2 cents.

Holly
post #91 of 106
Well, I'm sorry to see the thread get sidetracked to a debate about whether a bassinet/cosleeper attachment is the same as cosleeping. While I don't think anybody meant to be hurtful, I agree with LizD that we should be supporting each other, not creating more divisions. And really, if you want to get technical about it...McKenna never said just how far away a baby had to be from it's mother to reap the benefits of symbiotic breathing, sleep, etc...a baby in a bassinet right at mum's head level may be close enough to get that stimulation. All I can say is what I've said all along: if baby is happy there, then go for it. None of the mamas here said they'd keep a crying baby in the bassinett if baby wanted to be in the bed.

I also think this thread has served as a peice of supportive testimony to my question of "what makes a mother unable to cosleep". We've heard from three people with severe sleep issues that predated baby. Trying to lump such mothers into the catgory of those who "want baby to be independent" and thus stick them down the hall is analogous to lumping a mastectomy patient in with those who feed formula out of convenience. I think it goes without saying here that people with sleep/depression issues, or babies with special needs, are not included in the category that I think the OP was addressing: those who put baby down the hall as a matter of default.

Snowbaby, I appreciated the humour with which you are conducting yourself. I hope this comes across without sounding patronizing (it's so hard to convey tone in text!). The arguments you have raised are all "old hat" so to speak, in the sense that they are generally asked by those who have not done the research into AP. I know you have just begun your journey, and I don't expect you to be familiar with all the literatue. And I can't refute all your points without writing three pages (and LMB did a good job of it anyways). I can just tell you that you are misinformed, or should I say "underinformed" right now. Just one example is the study you cited of smothering deaths/accidental deaths in cosleeping infants. That study was not only terribly designed, not to mention sponsored by the JPMA (crib manufacturers), but it has been refuted by several of the world's leading experts on SIDS and infant sleep. If you can get your hands on a copy of Mothering's special Cosleeping issue, you will find the rebuttals there. Suffice to say that study is not worth the paper it's written on.

The anthropological data is also quite clear. Meredith Small's book "Our Babies, Our Selves" does a nice job of summarizing this. The truth is, that it's an American belief that those who don't use cribs and separate rooms are merely victims of poverty. Honestly, this is the sort of elitest garbage that makes me embarrassed to be part of the Developed World sometimes! Mothers in many cultures around the world are positively shocked and disgusted at how readily North American women abandon their babies and ignore their cries. A global perspective really sheds light on this issue.

As does history. If you research the origin of cribs, they stem from a very Victorian-era notion of bodies being full of harmful "vapours", of discomfort with anything remotely sexual, and warped ideas of a child's place in the home. It had nothing at all to do with child safety, I assure you.

Finally, an understanding of evolutionary behaviour is necessary to appreciate the difference between being adaptive, and changes in fundamental aspects of physiology. The latter take hundreds of thousands of years to change. Babies are born into this world expecting the Stone Age. They may be able to adapt, but only so far. Again there are some wonderful books out there that go into this in much more detail.

I can tell you as a scientist myself who has carefully reviewed the literature, that the safety of cosleeping is more than anecdotal. The evidence is very clear, society is just slow to catch up with changes in attitude. I applaud your openness to being here and learning about AP, and I applaud the way in which you have conducted yourself in this thread. But do understand that AP is very science-based. While some here naturally fall into it b/c they are "on the crunchy side", others (like myself) are convinced by the evidence that is readily available. We'll be happy to direct you to that literature, but be ready to change your mind about the "jury being out".
post #92 of 106
Thread Starter 
Holly, You are exactly right. Your going to be a super mom and are already a great example of AP and openmindedness.

Piglet, You make a great point. We've all learned alot about why different mothers choose what place is right for their baby to sleep comfortably and safely.
post #93 of 106
oh my gosh, piglet. I know I keep repeating myself but you are truly my inspiration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piglet68
Snowbaby, I appreciated the humour with which you are conducting yourself. I hope this comes across without sounding patronizing (it's so hard to convey tone in text!). The arguments you have raised are all "old hat" so to speak, in the sense that they are generally asked by those who have not done the research into AP. I know you have just begun your journey, and I don't expect you to be familiar with all the literatue. And I can't refute all your points without writing three pages (and LMB did a good job of it anyways). I can just tell you that you are misinformed, or should I say "underinformed" right now. Just one example is the study you cited of smothering deaths/accidental deaths in cosleeping infants. That study was not only terribly designed, not to mention sponsored by the JPMA (crib manufacturers), but it has been refuted by several of the world's leading experts on SIDS and infant sleep. If you can get your hands on a copy of Mothering's special Cosleeping issue, you will find the rebuttals there. Suffice to say that study is not worth the paper it's written on.
thank you for pointing this out. This is what I tried to say, before, hopefully with success.

Quote:
The anthropological data is also quite clear. Meredith Small's book "Our Babies, Our Selves" does a nice job of summarizing this. The truth is, that it's an American belief that those who don't use cribs and separate rooms are merely victims of poverty. Honestly, this is the sort of elitest garbage that makes me embarrassed to be part of the Developed World sometimes! Mothers in many cultures around the world are positively shocked and disgusted at how readily North American women abandon their babies and ignore their cries. A global perspective really sheds light on this issue.
Just for a little example.. my father belongs to the "elite" where he lives (our country chile) when I was born, my parents had nannies, maids and a cook. my mother still chose to coslept. it seemed cruel and cold to leave a newborn baby in another room. babies were the center of the universe!

Quote:
Finally, an understanding of evolutionary behaviour is necessary to appreciate the difference between being adaptive, and changes in fundamental aspects of physiology. The latter take hundreds of thousands of years to change. Babies are born into this world expecting the Stone Age. They may be able to adapt, but only so far. Again there are some wonderful books out there that go into this in much more detail.
this is a very important point. babies still are conceived the old fashioned way. the sperm still implants like millions of years ago, gestation is the one thing, that man has not been able to imitate. so yes, babies expect a tiger when they are born. they also expect arms, love, breasts. and they certainly don't expect being in a dark room all alone.


Quote:
I can tell you as a scientist myself who has carefully reviewed the literature, that the safety of cosleeping is more than anecdotal. The evidence is very clear, society is just slow to catch up with changes in attitude. I applaud your openness to being here and learning about AP, and I applaud the way in which you have conducted yourself in this thread. But do understand that AP is very science-based. While some here naturally fall into it b/c they are "on the crunchy side", others (like myself) are convinced by the evidence that is readily available. We'll be happy to direct you to that literature, but be ready to change your mind about the "jury being out".
HAIL TO THE QUEEN!!!!
post #94 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by loving-my-babies
this is the only country where there are the MOST families that "cannot cosleep. coincidentally, in this country, there are the MOST women that have too many difficulties breastfeeding and cannot overcome those difficulties. in other countries, people have no pumps, no breastfeeding books, no LC's to call, nothing. and yet, they are incredibly succesful at breastfeeding. This is why I am not being understood. .
I also wanted to point out that we are the nation with the most "sleep disorder clinics".
So for all our "expert knowledge" on where babies should sleep and how babies should fall asleep once they get there, we have a heck of a lot of people with sleep disorders.
Maybe we aren't as smart as we think we are.
post #95 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by grnbn76
I also wanted to point out that we are the nation with the most "sleep disorder clinics".
So for all our "expert knowledge" on where babies should sleep and how babies should fall asleep once they get there, we have a heck of a lot of people with sleep disorders.
Maybe we aren't as smart as we think we are.
I have always tried to say this but I get criticised for criticizing the US. I am also 50% american and being very objective, and being abroad pretty much all over, I think I can safely say, the US is the country that thinks it knows it all, but the country that truly knows less. Just my thoughts on the above statement.
post #96 of 106
In fairness to Americans (and Canadians aren't that much better ) it is tough not to have blinders on when you live in a huge country with very little variation around you. In Europe, people are surrounded in close range by different countries with long-established, distinct cultures, as well as language. I think it's a bit easier to see the "big picture" when you are exposed to it more. America is so huge, and most people never get exposed to any other culture. I agree, we can be very myopic in our views, but I don't think it's because we are inherently ignorant. Its just tougher being isolated the way we are.
post #97 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by loving-my-babies
I have always tried to say this but I get criticised for criticizing the US. I am also 50% american and being very objective, and being abroad pretty much all over, I think I can safely say, the US is the country that thinks it knows it all, but the country that truly knows less. Just my thoughts on the above statement.

LMB's - DH & I TOTALLY AGREE & we're Americans.
The US has turned into a bunch of whiney know-it-all bullies.
We HATE it.

DH & I seek out other views. I'm only 2nd generation full- American.

Folks need to be open to all kinds of info.
post #98 of 106
I have a rather simple question that I never see addressed.

Many of you talk about how much the baby needs mama next to him/her at all times during sleep to be safe, happy, well-adjusted, etc.

And then you go on to talk about how you get your "alone time," "couple time" etc in after the baby has been put down for the night, alone, in your bed.

How is your bed anything but a crib without bars (and consequently, a slightly more dangerous crib--my DD rolls like crazy in her sleep these days) while mama and dada are out having margaritas on the balcony, I wonder? Who is keeping your baby from succumbing to SIDS during this time? Please explain.

My DD goes to bed at 7. I go to bed around 11 or 12. Even if we coslept (we used to but she is now in a crib) she would be alone for 4 or 5 hours between 7-12, and would only have me with her for 5-6 hours.
post #99 of 106
The US has turned into a bunch of whiney know-it-all bullies. We HATE it. DH & I seek out other views. I'm only 2nd generation full- American. Folks need to be open to all kinds of info.

You mean "open" as in the way people on this thread need to be open to the possibility that cosleeping is not "best" for everyone and that every family gets to decide what is best for them, and that crib-sleeping can be best for some families. Open like that, you mean?

I agree.

I don't hate the US. I think there are many good things about it and many bad things about it, just like everywhere else in the world. The current American self-hatred disturbs me. For those of you have traveled, then you will know that there is plenty about other countries/ cultures that suck! Just like plenty here sucks. And there are many places in the world where you would get killed for voicing your opinion and that women are still men's slaves, etc. etc. etc. so let's not make us out to be the worst of the worst. We're doing okay overall and, let's not forget that, twice in the last century, the Europeans were killing each other in all-out war .... so much for their cross-cultural utopia.

ohhh, but we're soooo far off topic
post #100 of 106
Thread Starter 
I'm not very well traveled to say the least. I'm not sure about the way all countries and culture raise their kids and I never will. What's important to remember is that we don't have to do the things that mainstream USA does. We have the right and ability to raise our kids however we see best to a great extent. We have the internet and access to more knowledge than previous generations. We get to make educated choices that will better serve our kids. Yes, it's up to us to use those resources but they are out there for most Americans. Sadly alot of them don't care enough read up. There are alot of countries and cultures that don't have those advantages. Lots of places where women don't have the right to anything, let alone educated decisions in child rearing. Yes, that's all debatable and nothing is perfect here for sure. I still wish that AP ways were mainstream here and WIC handed out LC and pumps first and didn't give people the option of formula. I can't see that happening in my lifetime but you know things have come a long way since we were babies. Hell, my mother was told NOT to breastfeed in the 70's and 80's.
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