ARGHHHHHHHHH!! Five-year-old! - Page 2

[Charles Baudelaire]

Some suggestions for both, if it helps:

ME: Michael, in one minute from now, I'm going to ask you to put your books away.

MICHAEL: I HATE putting things away (Whine whine, scream scream)

ME: Michael, what you have to say is important and I want to hear it, but I can't listen when you speak that way.

MICHAEL: (Less screaming, still sort of whining) Mama, I hate putting things away. It's no fun.

ME: Sorry, dude. That's just part of life. Your responsibility. You use them, you put them away.

MICHAEL: (Planting himself on the floor across the room) I won't.

ME: !?!?!?!?! (I was flummoxed)

MICHAEL: (Digging in) You can't make me.

ME: True. However, you have a choice. I will come back into this room in five minutes. If you've decided not to put the books away, then I will put them away and out of your reach for one day. It is your choice. You use them, you put them away. You don't put them away, you don't use them.

And then I'd leave. You're putting the ball in his court and (if it's that important to you), not making it an issue for debate. You're giving him a set time during which he can make this decision and are being very clear about what will happen and how long it will last. You aren't screaming, name-calling, insulting, or demeaning him.

Just a thought.
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As far as Annette Marie's situation, here's what my responses would have been, for whatever it's worth.

Me: Katie, would you please take your plate into the kitchen now?
Katie Grace: (stares into space)
ME: (LOOKING INTO KG's EYES) Katie, take your plate into the kitchen now, please.
KG: I, I, I, I love to do the mambo.
Me: I will count to three. If I get to three and you aren't taking the plate, I will take you AND the plate into the kitchen. I don't think you'll like that as much as going on your own.

And then I'd count and if she wasn't making decent moves toward the kitchen, I'd follow through. I wouldn't be abrupt or rough, but I would pick her and the plate up and take them both into the kitchen. I have a teeny fuse for being blown off (I'm a high school teacher and you'd think I would have gotten used to it by now, but I haven't).

My guess about what went "wrong" here is that maybe you didn't get her attention and/or she knew you'd repeat the request many times and so she didn't have to pay attention to requests #1-12, KWIM? Not to make everything an analogy to teaching, but I've gotten out of the habit of saying directions more than one time. If someone doesn't *understand,* that's one thing. I'm happy to clarify any time there's a genuine misunderstanding. Most of the time, though, they don't "get" the directions because they were tuning them out -- having gotten habituated to the idea that a teacher will repeat a direction 3-4 times anyway, so you don't really need to pay attention to them. Might I respectfully suggest that these issues are related??

Personally, I think it's been effective for us to give a set time limit that kids can understand, which is why the "counting to three" method with younger kids works for me. It lets them know exactly WHEN you expect something to get done.

I hope this helps.

[mamaduck]

Maybe this sounds trivial, but I've had better success using the phrase, "Its time for..." instead of "Do this now."

For instance, I would have said, "Katie Grace, its plate clearing time!" I think because the issue is no longer about power (who's in charge.) Instead, its about the routine. FTR -- I'm am a manger at my paid job, and I use this strategy at work too. "Its time to clean the store," goes over much better than "You, go fold down the tables." KWIM?

Also with a 3 yo, I would be prepared to stand up and go to her, and "help" her pick up the plate and point her in the direction she needed to go with it.

Reading your post, when she said, "I love to do the mambo," I probably would have replied with, "Okay then, why don't we mambo our plates right into the kitchen! Ready, go...." Following directions need not feel like a chore.

[annettemarie]

These are great suggestions that I think we could all live with.

FTR, I was just trying maya43's technique of disengaging.

Thanks again!
Annette

[Stevie]

Annettemarie -- I think its easier in a way with other people's kids because you don't feel so incredibly responsible. As if the problems our kids have are *our own* faults, and as if we are failing as parents and failing our kids. Everything feels so incredibly critical when its our own sweet babies we're talking about, you know?

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My theory is that other people's kids don't push us as far because while they know that their parents love them and won't chuck 'em out in the snowbank, they can't be quite so sure that another adult won't! Just a half baked theory LOL

[maya44]

TE=annettemarie]OK, maya43, I must be misunderstanding your disengagement method. At our house, we clear our plates after meals (one of those non-negotiables)
Me: Katie Grace, take your plate in the kitchen to daddy.
Katie Grace: (stares into space)
ME: KG, take your plate in the kitchen to daddy.
KG: I, I, I, I love to do the mambo.
Me: KG, take your.....
KG: (To her brother) Nicholas, booby man!
Me: (very calmly) KG, take your.....
KG: (silence while she practices some ballet moves)
Me: (after a moment or two of looking expectantly at her) KG, take your plate....
KG: (Looking back at me) Do you have two eyes?
Me: (after a few more seconds of looking like I expect her to listen) KG, take your plate...
KG: Eat my shoe! (giggle, giggle, giggle)

This went on for a few more minutes until her father, probably tired of hearing me ask the same question 63 times, came in and said "Katie Grace, you obey your mother right now" AND SHE DID!!!!!

So, what did I do "wrong" here, because I'm pretty sure this isn't right!

Annette[/QUOTE]


Isn't she only three? I really don't think you can expect a three year old to do what you ask all the time. i mean, if you really yell, you can get her to do it, but it really does not seem necessary to me.

With a child under the age of 5, I would ask once or twice and then, if I really wanted her to do it, I might put the plate in her hands and steer her gently to the sink. But if she was really resistent I would let it drop. (not the plate, the issue LOL)

[Charles Baudelaire]

Originally Posted by mamaduck

Maybe this sounds trivial, but I've had better success using the phrase, "Its time for..." instead of "Do this now."

For instance, I would have said, "Katie Grace, its plate clearing time!" I think because the issue is no longer about power (who's in charge.) Instead, its about the routine. .

Ooh, I like this. Then that makes it sort of part of this big omniscient plan...Hope it's okay if I appropriate this idea!

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by maya43

Isn't she only three? I really don't think you can expect a three year old to do what you ask all the time. i mean, if you really yell, you can get her to do it, but it really does not seem necessary to me.

See, I think this is where we would have to agree to disagree

I do expect her to do what she is told, otherwise, what's the point- every thing is reduced to a matter of her own personal choice, based on whether she feels like obeying or not. And how long until she decides it is pretty much always more fun to do what she wants, and not what she is asked to do?

I don't want to yell, and I don't want to punish. I don't ask her to do all that much- help pick up her toys at the end of a play time, put her dish in the sink after a meal, and not pick up her baby brother. I think these are entirely age-appropriate expectations. Of course, I *know* that part of being three is pushing the limits, but I feel strongly that part of being a three-year-old's mama is showing her where the limits are.

Hope I'm articulating this clearly- it's pretty late here!
Annette

[maya44]

I simply don't think a three year old is really old ennough to have words control her actions. By 5, I think they are old ennough. Before that if you really want her to do something, without using a fear of punishment as a motivating force, you are going to have to physcially get involved (meaning putting the plate in her hands and steering her to the sink)

Look. I am a "tough" mama compared to many here. I don't believe that parenting is a democracy. I don't believe in negotiating with small children. I believe the parents need to be in charge. I believe parents need to make the big decisions. I think the expectation is that children obey.

However, I don't think that there is a need to punish or threaten to get this done. My kids are really well behaved. They understand the rules and obey almost all of the time. If they don't well, they know they are supposed to, and that I am not happy with them when they don't. That is really all it takes to get them to do as I ask 95 percent of the time.

I have a book I really think you should read. It's called "The Secret of Parenting" by Anthony Wolf. Its the method I use. No punishment, no threats, no rewards. But still tough parent in charge parenting. How???? That's the secret.

[mamaduck]

I agree with you Maya, that 3 is still young enough that you often have to couple words with action if you expect to solicit their cooperation. I still expect to stand up and walk over to my 3 yo, to get down on his level, to ensure that I have his attention, and sometimes to physically "help" him follow instructions. Its not that a 3 yo. wants to ignore or disobey -- its that they still *need* that action in order to process what they need to do.

My theory is that other people's kids don't push us as far because while they know that their parents love them and won't chuck 'em out in the snowbank, they can't be quite so sure that another adult won't! Just a half baked theory LOL

No Stevie. This is not half-baked. Its right on. Once when my oldest was 5 and giving me a hard time, I asked him why he was being so difficult and I pointed out that he would NEVER dream of acting that way for his preschool teacher! He said, and I quote, "My teacher would kick me out of preschool if I was too much trouble. YOU HAVE to keep me!"

[annettemarie]

I think Mamaduck put it better than I did!

[allbrightmama]

I also agree with Stevie about children acting out more with people they are very strongly attatched to. Teacher, babysitter, camp counselor... perfect angels. Mom, Dad, caregiver they have known since birth... let the emotions fly! We also tend to respond with stronger emotions to children we have a loving attatched relationship with. In my experience it is much, much harder. But on the other hand isn't it amazing and wonderful to be that someone that a child can lose it with because they feel so safe with you? I have seen children who can't even lose it with their own parents.

When we love another human being won't there always be conflict? Can't we use these opportunities to model conflict resolution with our children? I expect my son to treat me with respect. I also expect myself to treat him with respect. If we are both contributing to the escalation of the situation aren't we both responsible? Should only the party who is most wrong apologize?

I would not expect a child to do as I say just because I said it. I agree with maya43 and mamaduck that explanations, encouragement and assistance can go a long way. And who ever said that 2 is terrible? I have always found 3 to be absolutely the most trying!