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Confused about this GD thing  

post #1 of 7
Thread Starter 
I saw on the GD reading list that Piglet (I think it was her) listed How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk. I have read that book and I think it's fabulous, and it pretty much describes how I parent. But the thing is, what I see people discussing here and what I read in that book don't look the same to me. Why am I experiencing that disconnect? I don't mean to insult anyone here, but really, I have seen a lot of threads where it really seems to me that the parents are unwilling or afraid to assert their authority, and I don't find that idea in How to Talk at all. The story that comes to mind is the kid in the book who doesn't take care of his father's tools, so the father locks to the toolbox. My impression is that a lot of people here wouldn't agree with that strategy. Am I just wrong? Am I misinterpreting the threads here?

Wilma
post #2 of 7
Hm. If my child was abusing something of mine that was important to me, I wouldn't hesitate to put it out of his reach. Though I hestitate to speak for anyone else, from what I've seen on this board I think most would do the same. I wouldn't normally do the same thing with something of his that he was abusing. I think that might be one area where there is a disconnect.

Are you identifying this "How To Talk" example with the discussion that we had in the other thread about taking a child's toys away when they refused to pick them up? In my view, they aren't the same (because the toys belong to the child, while the tools belong to the father).
post #3 of 7
Thread Starter 
No, I wasn't using that example because of the picking up the toys thing (although, for the record, if it got to the point where I had to say to my kids "If you're unwilling to pick them up, then I will, but I will put them away where *I* choose to put them away," I would, and I would put them away where the kids couldn't get to them), I was just using it as an example of what I see as the dad using his own authority to decide what the outcome of the child's actions are. Another example from the book that I could give would be the cartoon of the mother and the son at the grocery store, where the son is running around like a "wild child" (as they say in the book). One of the ideas the authors give for dealing with it is to say, "You have a choice: either walk with me or sit in the cart." When the child continues to run amok, the mother scoops him up and says, "I see you decided to sit in the cart" (or something like that). I could see people here saying, "That's not fair to the child because it's not a real choice, because the mother gets what she wants regardless." I happen to think that it's not necessary to give children choices that will always result in them getting to choose something they like, because that's not how life works. People have to make choices every day that involve choosing among a range of less-than-desirable (to the chooser) options.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with GDers. I'm just trying to understand the difference between how I discipline (which people here have said is disrespectful to my kids) and how people who say they are GDers discipline (especially when I sometimes see people who "are" GDers give the same advice I would, even though I'm "not" a GDer). I try to evaluate each discipline situation or strategy on its own merits, regardless of whether it conforms to a certain "theory" of discipline or not. I think I come to discipline with a wide range of strategies, which is why I didn't think it was odd that I would post on a GD forum even though I'm not a self-described GDer. (Ok, I guess that was a tangent.)

Wilma
post #4 of 7
Bunnysmama: I think I can answer your question quite simply. I interpret the "How to Talk..." method as being appropriate for fully verbal, older children.

A nine year old can well understand, and cope with, the consequences of not being allowed to play with the tools if they cannot do so responsibly. Not only does he have the verbal skills to fully understand what is being said, he has the developmental skills to appreciate the concept of logical consequences. AND, most importantly, he has the cognitive ability to exercise some impulse control. My two year old is nowhere near this level, and so I don't deal with situations that way right now, and would feel as though I was being unfair to my child to expect her to follow something like that.

To be honest with you, I'm not even sure I'd deal with the tool situation that way. I might first try to engage the child in helping me solve the problem, hoping maybe he would come up with a solution to avoid the tools getting damaged. I might move to locking the toolbox if that didn't end up working. BUT, the point is, I look at that book as setting a good foundation of GD principles in terms of respect, etc...but I don't consider it all that applicable to toddlers and preschoolers.

I also don't know that it's very helpful to try and pigeonhole yourself as being "not GD". I hear you refer to yourself that way, but I'm not sure that's really true. There are spectrums of discipline, and I think GD encompasses a great deal of variety. Maybe not in the "real world" range of discipline (with all it's spanking, punishing, yelling, etc), but here I see a fair amount of variety, all of which I think still falls under the "GD" description.
post #5 of 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by BunnysMomma
Another example from the book that I could give would be the cartoon of the mother and the son at the grocery store, where the son is running around like a "wild child" (as they say in the book). One of the ideas the authors give for dealing with it is to say, "You have a choice: either walk with me or sit in the cart." When the child continues to run amok, the mother scoops him up and says, "I see you decided to sit in the cart" (or something like that). I could see people here saying, "That's not fair to the child because it's not a real choice, because the mother gets what she wants regardless."
I have a hard time imagining people here saying that under those circumstances because it's a safety issue.

But I do agree with Piglet that "How to Talk" is much more applicable to the very verbal set. My child, at almost 4, is only now getting to the point where some of the scenarios in that book are starting to work (which is why I would still, at this point, move my belongings out of his reach if he were abusing them. He still doesn't always have the impulse control necessary to stop abusing them for the long term). It's still very dependent upon his mood, level of fatigue, etc., but I'm finding that we're able to work things out with words more and more. When he was too small to understand that I was giving him a choice, I generally didn't let him walk in places that weren't safe. If he absolutely needed to walk and didn't want to hold my hand, then we usually ended up leaving. But that didn't often happen because I usually had him pretty well engaged in the cart.

A lot of what people on this board post relates to toddlers or early preschoolers because that seems to be a) the hardest age to keep the GD philosophy intact and b) the age to which there is the least GD literature applicable. It just so happens that those are the years that books like "How to Talk" isn't so applicable. Still, it's a good read because it helps to lay the groundwork for GD (just as is "Kids Are Worth It!" by Barbara Coloroso. Most of her practical advice doesn't apply to the older set, but I found reading her book to be incredibly valuable when ds was a baby because it helped me see where I wanted us to be when he was older and to start figuring out how we could get there.)

Quote:
I happen to think that it's not necessary to give children choices that will always result in them getting to choose something they like, because that's not how life works. People have to make choices every day that involve choosing among a range of less-than-desirable (to the chooser) options.
I agree that it's not always necessary. For example, I don't know if you've read about my Battle of the Tootbrush saga with my son (I posted about it recently). It's necessary that he brush his teeth. He positively does not want to. I can give him all the choices about location, type of toothbrush, toothpaste flavor and so on in the world and he's not going to like any of them because the only wholly favorable choice for him is to not brush his teeth. Oh well. Has to be done.

But I do think that it should be a priority for me to give him choices that he likes wherever possible, even if it means minor inconvenience to me - or, better yet, for him to help me figure out choices that he might like. He's a person with preferences and I shouldn't always expect him to just deal because I don't feel like he deserves the courtesy of more choices. And I shouldn't always assume that I know what he's going to prefer (which is why I should enlist his help in developing options whenever possible). We're a family. It's not our job to represent the whole world. He'll figure out that there are certain situations where he doesn't always get to choose an option that he really likes. We all do, right? Within our family, it's important that he learn the art of compromise, not that he learn disappointment (though sometimes disappointment is unavoidable... I just don't think it's my role to limit his options because, hey, them's the breaks, right?). Once he develops that skill, he'll get along in the world just fine. But he won't develop it by having to subjugate himself all the time or always choose between options that I generate for him. A big part of compromise is learning how to generate options one's self. It's my job to help him learn how to do that.
post #6 of 7
Thread Starter 
Thanks for your replies. Piglet, I actually think that the stuff in How to Talk is very applicable to younger children. Maybe not exactly as it's presented in the book, but I've definitely found myself using age-appropriate variations on the How to Talk theme with toddlers. Actually, it was more of a "This is how I discipline ... Oh, look! Here's a book that describes it!" than a "Wow, I think I want to discipline the way this book describes it." I've thought of How to Talk as more of an affirmation of what I already do than as a guide for how to do things. I'm not really big on reading parenting books, anyway, because I think they tend to interfere with my own inner voice.

Also, the more I think about it, the more I think the biggest difference I see here is the attitude one brings to parenting. As we discussed in our PMs a while back, Piglet, I'm definitely from a more "Kids should be obedient to their parents and kids have a place and should know it" background, both in how I was raised and in how I raise my kids. I know that's horrifying to some people, but I have seen lots of successes with it and I also don't think it precludes being gentle to kids and treating them with respect.

Wilma
post #7 of 7
I agree with Piglet that GD encompasses a whole range of parenting that at its base seeks to avoid punishment. There is a range within that non-punishment in terms of how much people are willing to compromise with their kids and "problem solve" vs those who feel that the parents make the rules and the kids don't get much of a say, at least not when the kids are small.

I tend to be on the "left" in terms of not punishing/issuing consequences. While I would for instance take away something of mine that the kids were ruining, or take away a toy of theirs that they using to hurt a sibling, I would not take away a toy because they left it out, or refused to put it away. I would not "make" them put it away or insist that they not do anything else until they put it away.

However, I am further on the "right" when it comes to making the rules. I am not going to discuss with them whether the toy "really" needs to be put away or "problem solve" as to why they don't want to put it away.
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