Dads, need your help with circumcision advice - Page 2

[number572]

Originally Posted by CrunchyMamaToBe

I have never heard this (except from people arguing against circumcision). My partner is in tact and have never ever noticed a funny smell and he has never had problems with painful foreskin/ erection/ etc. And lemme tell ya, I dunno if this is just him, but he is so much more sensetive than the few circ'ed men I had been with in the olden days. My touch goes miles further. It's nice.

ETA: I know you were looking for advice from dads, but I hope my advice was at least a little helpful

She said what I was going to say EXACTLY. My dp is South American so it is more cultural to leave babies intact for his family, not sure why it's more accepted here in N.A.??
As for the smell or painful part of your OP, none of that here. & he IS actually way more sensitive than my previous circ'd boyfriends. The comment about letting him decide when he's older makes sense, considering it's a slim chance something will bother him if he's intact as a child. Also if other males in your family decided for themselves they may be able to give him the pros & cons when that time arrives... hth!

[sammyrose]

With proper education regarding cleaning either way will be fine. The key questions involve why is it being considered (religious etc.). Research seems to indicate that there is some pain involved but there is disagreement on this.

If you circumcise I wuld use a referred moyel instead of the physician (they have more experience).

We circumcised our son (now 17 months) and I will say that we regularly received praise on the outcome of the proceedure from doctors and nurses. They all wanted to know who did it. I will also say that it was a difficult decision for me to make and many tears were shed prior to the event. Once the decision was made I was at peace and have been ever since.

The decision is for both parents to make and is unique to both of you and your son.

[Quirky]

Originally Posted by sammyrose

Research seems to indicate that there is some pain involved but there is disagreement on this.

Completely untrue. There is quite a lot of medical research to indicate that circumcision is extremely painful, as would be expected from a surgery that slices away the most sensitive part of a baby's penis. Would any woman voluntarily allow any of her clitoris to be sliced away without anesthesia under the grounds that it doesn't hurt? Of course not.

In fact, both the AMA and the AAP strongly recommend that anesthesia be used in any circumcision, although all forms of local anesthesia currently available reduce but don't eliminate pain.

http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/

The decision is for both parents to make and is unique to both of you and your son.

I disagree. The only person with the right to decide on genital surgery with no medical indication for himself is the owner of the penis.

[sammyrose]

Precision in reading

Originally Posted by Quirky

Completely untrue. There is quite a lot of medical research to indicate that circumcision is extremely painful, as would be expected from a surgery that slices away the most sensitive part of a baby's penis. Would any woman voluntarily allow any of her clitoris to be sliced away without anesthesia under the grounds that it doesn't hurt? Of course not.

In fact, both the AMA and the AAP strongly recommend that anesthesia be used in any circumcision, although all forms of local anesthesia currently available reduce but don't eliminate pain.

http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/



I disagree. The only person with the right to decide on genital surgery with no medical indication for himself is the owner of the penis.

I simply stated that there is disagreement on the issue of pain and its management. Of course there is research indicating that pain is felt. The professionals that disagree suggest that there either is none or it is minimal and handled through standard anesthetic practices. My post is factual.

As parents we make decision regarding our children's health all the time without consulting them and this may be considered no different. I also appreciate that many parents do consider this area different because they consider it medically unnecessary. Of course then you have many parents who beleive it is medically unneccessary to vaccinate and visa versa. The point is that parents who care about their children will have honest disagreements on these issues and the law and our society provides that the parents are responsible for these difficult choices.

A bit of grace in guiding not hammering the original poster would I'm sure be appreciated. Your opinon and research to the poster is always welcome but suggesting that it is the end all is not honest. They will be the ones deciding not me or you or any one else. I in fact have no opinion on the matter as to what they should do. I simply offered that the opinons of parents and professionals vary and for many reasons.

[Quirky]

Originally Posted by sammyrose

I simply stated that there is disagreement on the issue of pain and its management. Of course there is research indicating that pain is felt. The professionals that disagree suggest that there either is none or it is minimal and handled through standard anesthetic practices. My post is factual.

Really? Prove it. Post your sources demonstrating that research shows that there is no pain or that it is minimal.

Oh, and nice use of the passive voice - "pain is felt" as opposed to "the newborn baby feels pain."

I in fact have no opinion on the matter as to what they should do. I simply offered that the opinons of parents and professionals vary and for many reasons.

Really? You have no interest whatsoever in justifying your decision?

Opinions vary, but facts do not. Again, come up with the research, and post it, then we can have a discussion. Otherwise hiding behind the unnamed and uncited "experts" carries no weight.

[boingo82]

Originally Posted by sammyrose

With proper education regarding cleaning either way will be fine. The key questions involve why is it being considered (religious etc.).

I don't understand why everyone makes this big fuss about "cleaning". You are aware that cleaning procedure are exactly the same whether circ'd or intact, right?

Research seems to indicate that there is some pain involved but there is disagreement on this.

Research doesn't "seem" to indicate that there is "some" pain involved, in fact all research that has been done has indicated that the procedure is EXTREMELY painful. One study was called off because of the extreme distress of the babies due to their pain.
In fact, studies have shown that newborn babies are actually MORE sensitive to pain and feel it more intensely than do older babies.
The neonatal period is the most painful time to circumcise, period.

If you circumcise I wuld use a referred moyel instead of the physician (they have more experience).

And you will have no legal recourse in case of a botched job. Furthermore, mohels can't use anesthetic and are ill-equipped to deal with a complication.

The decision is for both parents to make and is unique to both of you and your son.

The decision is for the owner of the penis to make, of which the parents are most certainly not.

[sammyrose]

Originally Posted by Quirky

Really? Prove it. Post your sources demonstrating that research shows that there is no pain or that it is minimal.

Oh, and nice use of the passive voice - "pain is felt" as opposed to "the newborn baby feels pain."



Really? You have no interest whatsoever in justifying your decision?

Opinions vary, but facts do not. Again, come up with the research, and post it, then we can have a discussion. Otherwise hiding behind the unnamed and uncited "experts" carries no weight.

I spent many weeks going over the research before we made our decision and no longer have it. I also know that the pediatricians differ on this matter after their research review. They agree that it is unneccessary but do not agree on the degree of pain when an anethegic is used or its longevity. In addition even the research suggesting there is pain is not definitive on the level of pain. There are babies who have a wide range of responses to the proceedure. I hold no particular additional value to "experts". I mentioned "professionals" in light of evaluating the quality of the research. In almost every issue there is both poor research and higher quality research. I'm sure this is true with this issue as well.

No I do not have any interest in justifying my decision. The issue on the table is for this other couple to find their way to a decision they can feel comfortable with. My reasoning is mine and may not fit them. I do not need to justyfing my reasoning with anyone other than within my own family. At the time I felt completly free to nto have it done or have an alternative ceremony. I beleive it is possible for parents to come up with different valued ethical judgements on this issue so I do not need everyone to agree. My opinion is also based on more than scientific concerns and incorporates issues such as religious, cultural, community, peer relations, familial relations. These issues would all be weighted differently for each family.

In my individual son's case who is 17 months old he responded very well and with no indications after the proceedure showing discomfort, problems sleeping eating or anything else. He has been completely healthy, happy and does not show any signs of pain sensitivity.

All of this being said I am not suggesting that this family have the proceedure or not have it but rather they alone need to evaluate all the research and surrounding issues for themselves.

[dido1]

Well, I'm Not a Man But...

I'm hesitant to post on this topic because I know my views and decision are unpopular here, but here goes.

After much debate, my DH and I chose to circ our DS. We chose a private doctor in our city who is also a moyel (sp?). He uses three layers of pain blockers - baby Tylenol, topical anesthetic and then two needles of anesthetic. I can honestly say my son did not seem to feel pain during his circ (I say "seem" because I am not him and can only speak to what I witnessed). He didn't exhibit any symptoms of pain after the procedure either. He healed quickly, within about three days, and didn't cry at all with any diaper changes. I was shocked by this, because I expected the worst. My midwife was very impressed by the circ and said it was the best she'd seen, what ever that means.

I would personally have chosen not to circ but this was very, very important to my husband. I spoke to every man I know and asked for his opinion and only met one who was adamantly opposed, and I respect his opinion. What struck me when I was quizzing all my male acquaintances was that none of them spoke of their circs with any negativity, nor did any of them seem to remember having it done.

A previous poster commented that only 17% of boys in Canada are circ, but this is not actually correct. Statistics are only kept on circs performed in hospitals, not in private clinics or in religious ceremonies.

Anyhoo, that was/is our experience with circumcision...good luck with your decision.

[Britishmum]

"The decision is for both parents to make and is unique to both of you and your son."

This is such a weird lack of logic. Following on, I guess it would also be the parent's right to decide whether or not to remove a part of the baby's earlobes or finger tips?

"What struck me when I was quizzing all my male acquaintances was that none of them spoke of their circs with any negativity, nor did any of them seem to remember having it done."

If all you have ever had is a mutilated penis, what do you have to compare it to? The argument that it feels 'just fine' is ridiculous, if you've never experienced anything else. As for not remembering being strapped to a table and having a part of their genitals cut off, I can't recall much about my first weeks of life either. But I cannot imagine that the experience of circumcision would be all too pleasant. And the argument that it may not even hurt is simply laughable.

Just the thought of having my genitals cut then peeing on them brings tears to my eyes. How can anybody possibly believe that being cut anywhere on your body does not hurt?

"My midwife was very impressed by the circ and said it was the best she'd seen, what ever that means."

Hmm, something to be very proud of. To be impressed by the mutilation of a baby.

Ugh. I cannot believe what I read sometimes.

[Breathless Wonder]

There is a really excellent discussion about pain relief during circ going on right now:
http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...d.php?t=198109

The other thing is, I'm curious for those men who supposedly have no issues- have you done much reading on the complications- both small and large- of circ? You may find, like my husband did, that what he thought was "normal penile variation" is actually damage from the circ.

Edited to add: My DH just learned to cope with some of the various issues he has from his circ- but as far as I am concerned, I would prefer he didn't HAVE to learn to cope. And my DH internalized some of the issues from his circ as proof that he wasn't as "manly" as a man should be. It's pretty hard to deal with.

[dido1]

I believe the OP posted looking for people's real life experiences with circ. I posted my family's experience with circ honestly and factually - the only item I omitted was that the procedure was bloodless, something I should have mentioned.

I also think it is important that the OP understand from posts like mine that not all circs are done without pain blockers in some hospital backroom with baby strapped screaming to a board.

To the poster who wondered if I made this decision without educating myself, when making our decision to circ or not to circ, I watched several documentaries (all anti) on the subject, read anti-circ boards, websites, materials, pro-circ websites and materials and spoke to every man I knew, circ and intact. I also watched a video of the procedure done by the doctor we chose.

I learned that circ is not medically necessary, that it can go horribly wrong, like all medical procedures and that if you decided to do it, you should chose a experienced professional whose background you can confirm. I also learned that a small amount of men who are circed experienced complications and a small amount of boys/men who aren't circed experience complications. It seems the majority of men don't really give much thought to the cut or uncut state of their penises...

I met several men who weren't circed who had to be circed in their teens and expressed a desire that they had been circed at birth instead. I spoke with intact male friends who were absolutely, wonderfully happy with their penises and had never experienced any complications. None of the circed men I met expressed a desire to be intact, but I did watch interviews with and read stories of men who wished they were still intact.

Like I stated in my previous post, had this been my decision alone, I would not have had it done because I don't feel it is medically necessary. But I let my husband decide, as he is a man and has experienced this before.

To the OP, I hope my posts about my son's experience were helpful.

[phask158]

i was left as-is from the factory because of hypospadius--ie, circ wasn't an option. I've never heard of anyone who HAS to have it done. Why would my glans smell bad? It's just a flap of skin, like the folds in my armpit. No pain either.

Our son is intact, too. I don't feel strongly about it one way or another, though my wife was strongly against, despite being a conservative Jew. I think we ultimately decided that it would be pretty tough for him to reverse the decision to do it, and easy to reverse the decision not to.

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by dido1

Like I stated in my previous post, had this been my decision alone, I would not have had it done because I don't feel it is medically necessary. But I let my husband decide, as he is a man and has experienced this before.

I just don't get this "logic." Your husband had this done to him, so yes, he experienced it, but he surely doesn't vividly recall the experience. Isn't the whole reason parents perpetrate this mutilation on their little boys when they're infants because they won't remember it? And don't you think that's the same reason that the formerly intact men you spoke with (who were unfortunately circumcised - probably few out of medical necessity, btw... more likely they were treated by overzealous physicians) wished they were circumcised as infants instead - so they didn't have to actually recall it? It's traumatic, obviously - otherwise, why would they have wanted to not remember it. Why would you knowingly inflict medically unnecessary trauma on your son... or, in your case, allow your husband to? Why does his experience - the immediate pain of which has been lost to him over time - give his position any validity at all when it has nothing to do with his body?

Why not let the owner of the penis decide? What stake do you circumcising parents have in the appearance of your son's penis, anyway? It's not as though you have to go through life with it... which is a shame, really. My guess is that parents would be a lot less apt to jump at the chance to mutilate their boys if they actually had to experience both the process and the aftermath themselves.

[dido1]

I feel the need to point out again, for the orginal poster's benefit, that my son did not seem to experience pain during his circ. Someone on the Case Against Circ board posted that a child is "hacked" at for 10 minutes during a circ, without anesthetic. Well, my son's cut took exactly 15 seconds, did not bleed, nor did he display any signs of trauma. After the procedure, he returned to his normal routine of eating and nursing, going through none of the extended periods of sleep or prolonged nursings I was told to expect. He did not cry or seem at agitated during diaper changes and was completely healed in three days. I also watched for signs of increased pasivity (sp?) or lethargy, as I know those are signs of trauma in some babies and saw none in my son.

I know someone is going to post the question "how do you know if your son experienced trauma or pain?". Well, my son had to have a battery of needles in the hospital after his birth due to some complications and that was painful and traumatic for him. We also choses to selectively vax our son and that was horrible. It took longer than his circ and there was no denying the pain and trauma he felt from that experience. He wept for an hour at my breast, then slept, slept and slept. It was horrible.

Please know that I am not trying to convince anyone that circ is good. However, I feel that the information given about circ on this board is only accurate to circs done in the traditional hospital manner. My son's circ was done in a very new way, by a doctor who uses three layers of pain blockers (and no, my son didn't even notice when the needles of anesthetic were administered). This method doesn't make circ right, but it is very, very different from what is describe as a circ procedure by other posters on this board.

[sammyrose]

dialogue

Originally Posted by dido1

I feel the need to point out again, for the orginal poster's benefit, that my son did not seem to experience pain during his circ. Someone on the Case Against Circ board posted that a child is "hacked" at for 10 minutes during a circ, without anesthetic. Well, my son's cut took exactly 15 seconds, did not bleed, nor did he display any signs of trauma. After the procedure, he returned to his normal routine of eating and nursing, going through none of the extended periods of sleep or prolonged nursings I was told to expect. He did not cry or seem at agitated during diaper changes and was completely healed in three days. I also watched for signs of increased pasivity (sp?) or lethargy, as I know those are signs of trauma in some babies and saw none in my son.

I know someone is going to post the question "how do you know if your son experienced trauma or pain?". Well, my son had to have a battery of needles in the hospital after his birth due to some complications and that was painful and traumatic for him. We also choses to selectively vax our son and that was horrible. It took longer than his circ and there was no denying the pain and trauma he felt from that experience. He wept for an hour at my breast, then slept, slept and slept. It was horrible.

Please know that I am not trying to convince anyone that circ is good. However, I feel that the information given about circ on this board is only accurate to circs done in the traditional hospital manner. My son's circ was done in a very new way, by a doctor who uses three layers of pain blockers (and no, my son didn't even notice when the needles of anesthetic were administered). This method doesn't make circ right, but it is very, very different from what is describe as a circ procedure by other posters on this board.

It is a challenge in some of these forums to post factual information or opinions that go against the grain. I find that many in the forums find it too threatening. I personally never read into your post that you were trying to convinve anyone of anything. You were simply sharing your experience and providing some factual information. Apparently it is important to some for everyone to think the same and act the same. I'm certain you did not arrive at your decision in haste and haphazardly.

The decision to circumcise my son was made after much research, contemplation and discussion. Frankly, years ago after witnessing a circumcision I thought I would only do a alternative ceremony with any cutting.

Like yourself, I am not interested in convincing anyone to do anything other than make their own informed decision based on the best information they can gather and what they feel is relevant to them. Each family will weigh the various medical, ethical, emotional, relationship, religious, community criteria differently. As long as the parents bring integrity to their process as you did I am comfortable.

[stonecold]

Originally Posted by ella-makes-3

I would just like to get some male points of view here about circumcision.
My husband is for it, and I am kind of against, but still a little on the fence.
My father was just recently circumcised 5 years ago, and I have known quite a few men and boys that have had to get the procedure done. He has very strong views for circumcision, meaning that left intact it smelt bad and caused some pain. An old boyfriend in college had to have it done when he was 19, for the same reasons.
Just wanted to get some male input on the subject, since I don't have a penis, and will never know what the problems that go along with having a foreskin or not entails.
If you feel uncomfortable chatting about this, please PM me, I just want some good feedback, thanks

I think a couple of things must be clarified here.
first, the smell of a penis only depends on how often you clean it, and not on its circumcision status. All you have to do is "teach" your son to wash under under his foreskin when taking his shower, by retracting his foreskin, pass the water spray on it, and pull his forskin back over. It's that easy.

about the pain it may cause :
it does happen that foreskin may be a little tight, so it could cause a little pain when you retract it, but according to some studies, less than 1% of uncircumcized men know that problem, and it's almost always treatable without surgery. So this argument shouldn't be taken as a reason to systematically perform circumcision. Anyway, if this was to happen to your son, you should discuss it with your doctor first, and see what the different options are, instead of heading straight for circumcision.

and last, you should consider it's about your son's body here, not yours or your husband's. so when he gets older, he might be a little upset that you decided to remove a piece of his body without even asking him. I guess you should wait until he's old enough (maybe 10 or 11) to talk to him about it, and give him all the information there is to know about it, and give him the choice to decide whether he wants to have it done or not.
In my view, everybody should be the one to decide for the fate of their body, and that's the bottom line, coz' Stone Cold said so !

PS : feel free to email me or PM me if you want more information

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by sammyrose

As long as the parents bring integrity to their process as you did I am comfortable.

You are comfortable?

There is no integrity in mutilating a child.

[girlndocs]

OMG.

Now there are people actually ADVOCATING CIRC AT MOTHERING?

OP, you need to go check out the circ forum here. Really, you owe it to your son to make 2 mouse-clicks in order to get the benefit of those amazingly informed people. I particularly recommend you read the sticky about parents who regret circing their sons. You can never un-circ.

The pros balancing out the cons? They don't feel pain? Proper cleaning procedures? A "loose" circ is somehow better? I'm not even a heavy-duty intactivist but I am literally nauseated by some of the stuff I'm reading here. Mods? Is this stuff within the rules??

[Britishmum]

"As long as the parents bring integrity to their process as you did I am comfortable."

I'm sure that if my family decided to mutilate me, as long as they brought integrity to the process, I'd be fine with it.

I'm rarely tempted to be sarcastic, but this thread is very disturbing.

[number572]

The op asked for male experiences, and all of the experienced males have posted AGAINST circumcising - or at the very least letting the boy/man decide for himself.

I't's still unclear why circumcision is done, when the people who are advocating it can't even state one logical, proven reason that it should continue. (religion excluded, although I don't understand that either personally)