Let's talk limits - Page 3

[sphinx]

Parismaman, I live in Prague and it's the same thing. I call it children's boot camp. Every mother screeching nonstop "Don't do this!" "Don't touch that!" "That's dirty!" "Aren't you cold - put on your sweater!" "Drink!" "Eat!" "Stop it!" "Move!" then slapping if they don't do what is demanded of them within 5 seconds or less. How are these children going to learn to find their own limits when somebody is constantly directing their every move?
anyway hope that isn't too OT, I just wanted to testify! I am reading this thread with much interest, but don't have much to add.

[Graceoc]

: (lurking and learning....)

[beanma]

:

[MamaE]

Ditto on the lurking - great thread!

I don't think we have “limits” here aside from safety ones (and hurting others), but I am going to revisit this issue to make sure I am not setting any arbitrary limits.

It seems like the working definition for limits in this thread, at least, is "arbitrary limits" - limits that would stifle a child unnecessarily. I think there is a difference between having limits and teaching social/cultural norms. Children need to be taught these norms in order to function in a tribe or society (which is what I believe humans were designed to do), and therefore, I see nothing arbitrary about teaching social norms. Some examples of this to me are not harming others and being polite. I agree that not teaching such norms is lazy parenting and doubt it would go far in "not stifling creativity." If anything, parents who refuse to teach their child these norms are depriving their child of the ability to fit in to a society upon which they will ultimately depend for their own survival. (I use the term "fit in" VERY loosely! I'm talking peacefully co-exist.)

So, in my approach to limit setting, I take social norms out - I don't think asking my dd to kiss me instead of bite me is a limit - it's a social norm or expectation, one that she will need if she is ever to have friends! As for politeness - I'm with other posters on modeling - we have said bless you, please, thank you, you're welcome, excuse me, and sorry since dd was a babe. At 16 months, she is now saying bless you, thank you, and excuse me in their appropriate contexts (proud mama!) and has begun experimenting with please, sorry, and you're welcome. Hooray for modeling!! I hope that we will not have to expend much energy reinforcing these social courtesies as she gets older.

Our current issue has been with eating things that aren't considered edible (except to DD) - chalk, dirt, sand, and... ants. DD is doing this for a reaction because I foolishly reacted when this began. I can't decide whether this is a safety issue or not. I had a thread about this a while ago. My biggest concern is a potential intestinal obstruction, maybe I should ask a doctor. My gut is telling me to ignore and it will stop, but I'm having a terrible time watching my precious dd swallow dirt and chalk. The worst is when she comes to me with a mouth full of black dirt wanting to nurse. I just can't do it.

ParisMaman, you have wonderful insight on this and other GD issues (i've read your posts before!). Could you help out and suggest your favorite books on child development and GD? I am currently reading Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline and I think it is going to be my GD bible, but I’m only 30 pages in. The MDC book list is a bit overwhelming and there are books on it that I don't agree with after browsing them. Anyway, would love to hear your recs.

[uberwench]

danger baby

:LOL we call ds that (well, now it's "danger boy")

I'm enjoying this thread quite a bit - very refreshing.

[Magella]

Originally Posted by MamaE

It seems like the working definition for limits in this thread, at least, is "arbitrary limits" - limits that would stifle a child unnecessarily. I think there is a difference between having limits and teaching social/cultural norms.

I agree. I've been thinking about this a lot, and I think I tend to use the word "limits" to describe the whole process of teaching my kids about safety/health and social/cultural/family norms. It makes total sense to me to not set arbitrary limits with my kids. To me an arbitrary limit would be something like "don't get dirty", which is stressful, stifling, and just about impossible, or "you'll sit at the table until you eat all of your dinner" regardless of whether the child is hungry or not. There's enough to teach them about life without micromanaging every one of their behaviors and interactions. But I also think that some there are some limits that would seem arbitrary to one person, but not to another-each family has it's own culture and value system-and so it's not always black-and-white. My friend lets her kids wander from her in the store (not too far, but more than most moms in our area) because she's comfortable with that and willing to let them explore independently, but I keep mine right next to me most of the time because for me that's a serious safety issue (though it's never a struggle-they need only occasional reminders- because somehow we've just taught them that it's what we expect and they do it). I think the most important thing to me is being flexible, having an open mind, being willing to listen to my kids, to change my mind, to negotiate when it's appropriate. It's important to recognize when my limits are preventing my children from learning, stressing everyone out, or just plain not working or not worth the trouble.

I think that, at least in the U.S., the idea that you MUST set limits for your children and be very strict in enforcing those limits is very pervasive in the culture as a whole. It's hard to get over that. I was so confused when my first child started growing out of toddlerhood, because at the time I knew I should have rules, but I had no idea what they should be. I mean, I was teaching her about interacting with others, about being safe, being healthy but I was just so convinced I needed RULES and that those rules needed to be enforced by manufactured consequences. Making all sorts of rules and doling out consequences didn't feel right, but I was just convinced I needed to do it because it's like some kind of mantra or catchphrase in this culture -"kids need limits, kids want limits." It was only after a lot of reading about gentle discipline that I understood that what kids really need and want is for parents to make their expectations clear and to be good role models.

[MamaE]

Originally Posted by sledg

I think that, at least in the U.S., the idea that you MUST set limits for your children and be very strict in enforcing those limits is very pervasive in the culture as a whole. It's hard to get over that.

Totally! That idea is everywhere in our culture, and sadly, so many people allow our culture to blindly dictate what they do. They don't ever question whether it is best or not. Not questioning is the reason why people don't co-sleep. It's the reason why most women don't breastfeed for more than 6 months. It's the reason why people use time-out or, worse, spank. Cribs, CIO, and such are the norm and mainstream society likes to follow the norm and assumes that the norm must be the best way.

It's sad because I can't exactly fault a mom for falling into that trap. I have close friends who CIO. They aren't bad moms, but they have failed to question what they are doing and whether it is the best for their children. I think that's why mainstream parents need subtle messages to get them to start thinking about what they are doing and why. What they don't need is militant folk getting snotty, snarky, and high and mighty about why you shouldn't CIO or why you shouldn't use time-out. No one needs that. I get upset when I see that here (not in this thread, but I have seen it in others). But, I also admit I have to fight the urge myself not to get on a high horse and preach sometimes. I try to remind myself they just don't know another way because they haven't searched and they can't think outside the box, and, like me, they too are trying to make good decisions in raising their children.

As for arbitrary limits - yeah, I'm with you on the ridiculous ones like "don't get dirty" and the like. I also like what another poster said about a child's development being inconvenient for the parent. When DD wants to feed herself (looks more like splattering food everywhere than eating), I remind myself that the only way for her to learn is to do it and that the inconvenience to me is just something I have to get over. Messes - argh! - sometimes I have to grit my teeth and look the other way in the name of DDs learning. It's tough to do and I fail at times, but I think some people just can't do it at all. They would rather force feed than clean up the mess.

Those are my thoughts today. I look forward to more contributions - I love this thread!

[Organique Gal]

This is a very fascinating discussion... I only read through the first page, but wanted to contribute my 3 cents. Lately, my 11.5 month old son has started climbing up on the couch and off again. I feel like it's important for him to be allowed to be on the couch so he can figure out the best way to get up and down on his own. It amazes me how smart he is sometimes, really. His latest "strategy" is to push the cushions off the couch and roll off (head first) into the pillows. Sometimes he tries to turn around, but mostly it's head first and a flip. And yes, sometimes he bumps his head, and cries for a short time, but I feel so strongly that this is all part of the learning process, and it would be a waste of time (and struggle) for me to constantly tell him no-no, and pull him away.

Well, the other day we were at my SIL's house, and her family room has a small hall from the door, and then two steps down into the room. I was letting Micah play on the stairs (remember, there's only TWO), and my in laws made me feel like I was an abusive mother for not blocking the stairs off! How else is he going to learn how to safely navigate if I never let him try it for himself????? It really ticked me off, and even though I kept telling them that I WANT him to be free to play on the stairs, my SIL went and got a gate and blocked it off. Now, this IS at her house, so I didn't feel comfortable making an issue of it, but was I wrong in letting him do this??? I don't think so! I ended up getting the whole "he's going to fall and break his neck" lecture like I'm an irresponsible and neglectful mother, and left feeling really upset and attacked.

Mind you, this is the same family that told my husband to call my son's pedicatrician, BEHIND MY BACK, to complain to the ped that I'm not feeding Micah solids yet. I've explained to them over and over that Micah is a late teether, has a terrible gag reflux, and just won't eat solids. When he's ready, he's ready, and until then, breastmilk will definitely be enough sustenance for him. Good grief, he's never sick, and he's growing like a weed, what more proof do you need?!! My SIL has a daughter who is 6 weeks younger than Micah, and has been eating solids since she was 4 months old, so she can't FATHOM how an 11 and a half month old wouldn't be able to eat solids, and actually thinks that I'm depriving him. When I found this out I was LIVID, and confronted the whole bunch of them and made my husband apologize to his mother and his sister for bringing them into an issue that should have been between him and ME, the mother... And, just like I said all along, in the last few days, he's actually been able to eat pureed veggies without gagging and throwing up.

I hear my little man waking from his nap now... gotta run!

April

[laurajean]

Honestly, I do set limits with my ds (3 years old). And, other people's dc as well...I am a preschool teacher. I have no problem setting reasonable and appropriate limits. For example, my job is to keep my child safe, so he is not allowed to cross the street without me. For the most part, I focus my limit setting to situations where someone will get hurt - hitting, pushing, throwing toys/sand at another child/adult, kicking, biting are behaviors that I must try to prevent... in order to keep all the children safe.

Actually, the most effective way that I set limits is to watch for precipitating events. If Child A is creating a block building and I see Child B running toward the building - I intercept. So, in essence I am limiting Child B.

When ds was a baby, I made sure his environment was safe - so cords were not within his reach. I did this so he could have free reign of the house. My ds is fearless. He climbs 30 foot rock walls, jumps into pools, is very independent and confident. And, I try my best not to project fears onto him.

Issues not related to safety are basically not important to me: food, clothes, bedtime, bathtime etc. I do not worry about.

I do find it trying and perplexing when I see children at the playground being aggressive and their adult does nothing. I do not want my child to be their victim. Or, when a parent/child is leaving the playground with my ds' truck and when I run after them to retrieve it, I am informed by the adult, "I just did not have the heart to take it away from Child F."

So, I do think that appropriate limits based upon child's personality and family values need to be set. And, by setting these limits you are in essence socializing your child.

Just my perspective,
Laura

[Fianna]

I think our own personalities coupled with our dc's personalities really control how we all view "limits".

Before I had my own dc, I had two nephews nearby to watch. One thrives on routine and limits. The other balks. The parents are not good at being consistent in their expectations, so now I watch in amazment as the older child, the one who wants order, tries to force limits, ie "parent" his younger sibling (who actually accepts it amazingly well!).

I dislike constrictive limits intensely. I try not to impose them on my children. I try to base most of my limit-setting on respect of others. Yelling, being rude, name-calling--those are all unacceptable behaviors, but I try to model them. And when I do yell, I always apologize. My 2-yr-old now does the same. She may lose it and pitch a fit over something, but invariably she will "check in" as soon as she is calm to make sure I'm not mad at her for her outburst. I work very hard not to react in a way that can be perceived as a punishment when my children act in a way that I find unacceptable (not that I'm always successful). I try to talk about it, explain why the behavior isn't ok. Then we move on.

The choice discussion is interesting. My older dd, who is now 5, doesn't do well with too many choices. She is easily overwhelmed and is usually fine with my making clothing choices for her (and when she does have her own desires I let her go with it). But my younger dd is the opposite. She needs me to let her make choices. And she needs to do, or at least try, most things on her own. My older dd wasn't that way. They are teaching me a lot about valuing and accepting others' needs.

I think I also react to my mom's "over-management" for lack of a better term. She micromanages, constantly hovering, suggesting, trying to guide behavior. Makes me nuts! She means well but my goodness, my children can tell me when they want to eat, drink, go to the potty, etc. If my children balk at putting on shoes to play outside, fine! If they get outside and are uncomfortable, they will come back and get their shoes! If they want to smear themselves with paint and dance around in the front yard, fine! It washes off! [/rant--deep breath]

Keep talking, ladies. I'm learning a lot and loving it. PM, thanks for continuing to come back to this thread. I really enjoy your posts; something about them really resonates with me.

[SRHS]

Hmmmm

Well...I have to say I can go both ways and usually do....I have one child who is naturally very cautious in dangerous situations, has a finely tuned inner voice and another that is SO THE OPPOSITE!!! Someone said (sorry, don't want to go back and find the quote) that she is one way and her sister is totally the other...have you asked your Mom what it was like to raise the two of you ...(your dad was very strict, grounded you for taking a pencil from his desk...)? I ask because I fell like I try so hard instill principles into the kids (DS 8 and ds 3) and any limits or consequences that get imposed we attempt to be natural consequences centered on certain principles we deemed to be important in our family...like honesty...if ds lies about where he is, he doesn't have as much freedom because I can't trust to know where he is...imo a safety issue...

The other thing I want to say is it is SO FRUSTRATING to hear how easy it is for some people to GD, not limit set and still have great kids who make good ddecisions and come out ok...I have a very spirited kid who runs AMUCK when limits aren't imposed and I HATE IT...I hate parenting like that. It doesn't make me feel good either!!! He does EVERYTHING WITHOUT thinking first...hence he runs into LOTS of natural consequences I don't even have to try to impose, he gets himself in over his head all by himself!!! And schedules...yes, he thrives on schedules...soo....for much for the rant and pity party...

I have one who NEEDS a schedule or everyone's life inthe house is in total chaos and one who is much less on schedule and thrives that way and they both have been like that since birth. the 8 y/o breastfed on his own self imposed Q 2 hour schedule then 3, then 4 (not 2 1/2 not 3 1/2, etc...you could set the clock by the kid!!) The other, totally opposite....they still are as far as schedules go...and limits....one responds well to requests and redirction (the schedule oriented one) and the other totally rebuffs arbitrary limits/consequences....

so any words of wisdom???? Because most of the time I am pulling my hair out!!!

I have to agree with Monkey's Mom ....mothering is a very personal issue between two people....now if I can get my kids to understand that instead of seeing the two different parenting styles as unfair!!!

Great discussion...hope it is helping my sanity!!

Susan

[MsMoMpls]

Let me help with that sanity thing- the parents who are currently walking around patting themselves on the back, taking credit for their children's easy nature are the one's whose parenting hasn't been tested yet. Their day may come. Pride cometh before the fall. You, however are developing great parenting flexibility, instincts and staying power. And lots and lots of humility. Humility helps use see that our children have free will and some children need to make bad choices in order to prove that the choices are truly theirs to make. Hang in there- you're getting a great education.

[Organique Gal]

When I was still single and childless I had a friend who started having kids at age 16, and got married soon thereafter to the father of her child. I always admired her parenting style and took her wisdom to heart and am using the same strategy. She totally packed up everything in her house (including pictures) that meant anything to her, and made her house completely child friendly. She eliminated every possible potential no-no, and told me that kids get told no way too much anyways, and as many no-nos that could be eliminated from their life, the better, and when her kids were old enough to respect things, she'd put them back, but meanwhile she was content living in a stripped down environment if it meant have less things to say no to. She raised amazingly well behaved, loveable, kind children. Not perfect, but wonderful kids. I am taking the same tactic with my son, and he's SUCH a happy boy so far... there are a few things that I haven't been able to child proof (vertical patio blinds), but at 11 months, he's already learned to leave them alone, cause there are so many other things that he's free to explore and enjoy... I figure he'll grow up soon enough, and meanwhile having my "pretties" around isn't going to make me any happier in the long run, but having a happy child (as opposed to a frustrated one) will.

[PM]

Is that directed at me, MsMoMpls? If so, I will gladly clarify a few things for you.

I have a very spirited kid who runs AMUCK when limits aren't imposed and I HATE IT

Maybe you can think of it as your boy imposing limits on himself - exactly what discipline is all about!

I found this in an article on Kathy Dettwyler's site

On indigenous cultures:
Perhaps that's where I get confused about my dd and the "personality or not" issue (and I wrote, "I am not sure," BTW). On a very regular basis I see 1 year-olds here, in the country and sometimes here in the city, doing things that would make most of you gasp. And I mean really gasp in horror. And it makes me wonder how much we are limiting babes that could otherwise safely do things we could never imagine as safe.

I mean, here in the city I see 1 year-olds climbing up diagonally-positioned jungle gyms bars with such huge gaps in between them it makes me feel queezy! And at the top it's over 6' tall! Yet, they do it. And I have never seen one baby fall. I can barely stand to watch! And I would never be able to sit back and watch my 4 year-old do it!

As for arbitrary limits - yeah, I'm with you on the ridiculous ones like "don't get dirty" and the like.

It's not just the "don't get dirty" limits, which I'm not even sure are arbitrary but just plain silly. Arbitrary means based on personal whim or random choice. In my mind, an arbitrary limit is deciding on a certain day, because the parent is in a bad mood or because he or she has decided the child is spoiled, that the child can't have an ice cream or eat a bag of popcorn or watch an extra TV program, etc. There is no sound reason behind the decision. It's about how the parent feels that day, that moment. Arbitrary limits are based on a parent's feeling of insecurity about an issue.

The child-stifling probably doesn't come so much from setting arbitrary (random/whimsical) limits as it does from robot-parenting: handing down culturally-specific rules/limits from generation to generation without ever questioning the validity of those demands (Don't get dirty - Why? Does it really matter?; Don't walk barefoot on a bare floor - Why? Is it true that if child walks one minute on a cold floor his immune system will weaken?, etc.).

[PM]

And many thanks to Fianna and MamaE for your kind words.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

OK, so I have sort of a provacative question. I see here a really interesting discussion about not setting arbitrary or non-sensical limits on children. I cannot reconcile this with other discussions which seem to say "I never let my kids eat sugar, junk food offered by others" or whatever (these are just examples). Or sleepovers or play dates (in other threads). To me, these seem like big-time limits set by the parents and not by the kids. IMO these are arbitrary limits. Am I alone in seeing the dicotamy here? Or is this just a case of different threads populated by different people?

For me, I allow jumping on the couch (because its not important to me and it seems safe in my home) AND eating the occassional real junk food (e.g. candy bars). How about others?

[PM]

Yes, I agree with you.

I think many posters here see those as safety issues. There is scientific data on the dangers of eating too much sugar, on watching too much television, etc. So I'm not sure those are limits based on personal whim.

The playdate thing I'm not sure about.

Yes, my dd had a bite of a Snickers bar the other day. Sometimes she eats chips and cookies with hydrogenated oils. But, no, the stuff is not available in this house.

Is making things unavailable setting a limit? Probably. Though I'm not sure the child experiences the same amount of frustration.

[redheadmama]

This is such an interesting thread...I've been lurking for a while but thought I'd join in. It seems there are a lot of different definitions floating about with regard to the word 'limit' and what it implies. There's the safety issue, the 'manners' issue, the socialization issue, the health issue, the controlling parent vs the permissive parent issue, the need for rules/schedules vs the child who seems to be able to function without. Those are just a few of the topics with regard to limit-setting being put forth here.

All that, and the fact that there are so many different personalities that children come with. Some need more input from parents than others. Those of you with more than one child will certainly have noticed this. Add to this the fact that we moms have days when we are less able to let our children experience the natural consequences of their behaviour. I'm not referring to safety issues here, but more like "Put on your coat or you'll get cold." (BTW, Parismaman, there are far too many of those parent types here in Britain that you find where you are..."Get off that wall! You'll fall and break your neck! Don't swing so high, you'll fall off!" The child is deaf to such parental blathering and does it anyway without any injuries, and mom's credibility plummets so why should her sage advice be taken seriously in the future? But I digress...)

Maybe if we could more clearly define what we mean by 'limits', it would be easier to figure out what type of action vs non-interference we would like to implement in our quest for Gentle Discipline.

Also, the word 'arbitrary' when it comes to setting limits is a bit vague... When I limit my child from rolling down the grassy slope one day but not the next, it may appear arbitrary, but for me it's not. Today I have way too much laundry and it's not 'convenient' for me that ds adds to it. I suppose the word convenient (or perhaps tolerable) with regard to the parent is what it boils down to because somedays we are able to tolerate our children's behaviour and other days we simply aren't. When we try to always act the same way towards our child as well as siblings who require different levels of 'interference' , (ie., to always be consistent with regard to OUR behaviour) we run into problems because we human beings aren't naturally that way.

I think it's important to clarify the word 'limit' in order to define a standard of behaviour not only for our children, but for ourselves as well. We're getting lots of practice now...it's one thing to set limits for a toddler...and another thing entirely to do so for a teenager! I notice that most of the people responding here have very young children. It would be interesting to hear from some parents of pre-teens/teenagers as well!

[simonee]

Mostly lurking here, but I also want to remark that my dd (5yo) resembles PM's in many ways, except that she is a "run amok" type, a leo made out of fire who will not accept anything without what she considers a compelling reason. Still, she adheres to what we don't call limits but 'family rules' ~ i.e. things we generally do in our house but not always, things that are meant to make everybody in our house (grownups, children and cats) feel respected and free. I think that saying that one's own child wouldn't respond as well as PM's obviously very intelligent and thoughtful daughter is a bit of a copout. My dd isn't as thoughtful as PM's daughter I think, and definitely not as considerate by nature, but she is a lovely though not always "wellbehaved" child.

My dd has never adhered to a bed time, but she does sleep. She gets angry when she can't have everything she wants in a store, but she does accept it and is usually also happy with a bottle of juice.



Also, I really think there's a difference between setting limits and making choices. If I don't buy something, it's a choice. If we're in teh store and dd wants to buy something and I argue with her till I get my way ( ) it's setting limits. If dd wants to buy chocolate and I don't, and then we discuss any food rules our house might have resulting in us either buying a bit of chocolate or something else, it would be a glorious tcs moment

[PM]

I'm not even sure how to respond to that, Simone. Part of me wants to say, "This was not supposed to be about my child!" I mean I can reason with her, yes. She is capable of coming up with her own solutions to things, "I have a good idea!" But she's still a 4 year-old. And she has tested me. And I have thought I would lose my mind. And you can search my post history to find stories of challenges.

Another part of me wants to just you for all the beautiful things you said about my dd!

And the part about testing me brings me back to the post I can get out of my mind today:

one's whose parenting hasn't been tested yet. Their day may come. Pride cometh before the fall.

Is it possible that, yes, some of us have been tested but perhaps we came out of it intact and better for it? And that perhaps we like to share our new ideas with the mothers and fathers here who ask for help? I don't think any of it has to do with pride. People ask for help and some feel in a fairly good position to give it because some have spent way too much time thinking about all of it - and experiencing the various problems.

I have always been inspired by Dar and Barbara, who have older children. They are always so positive. Do I see it as bragging or pride? No. I like to come here not to brag but to tell the naysayers that the practice of GD can and does result in a beautiful, joyful, respectful (when needed) child and adult.

You write as though all children inevitably fall into an adversarial relationship with the parent. I don't share that opinion - and as a Buddhist I find it difficult to process that kind of doom & gloom.

But back to limits.

I limit my child from rolling down the grassy slope one day but not the next, it may appear arbitrary, but for me it's not. Today I have way too much laundry and it's not 'convenient' for me that ds adds to it.

To me, it still looks arbitrary. Perhaps there has been too much negativity surrounding the word? It's still a personal decision for you because that day you've decided that you don't want to add to the laundry. Perhaps another day you'll think harder about it and decide it won't kill you to add another pair of shorts or pants to the load. I'm not trying to criticize you, by any means.