How young can they really Child Led Wean? - Page 2

[MsMoMpls]

Thanks to all of the posters for some great information and for being able to talk about this so respectfully. This is such a tough, personal issue. I found myself getting really defensive but worked through all the responses and figured out that I wanted to believe it was CLW with my first two when it was mostly my decisions. (Not always well educated or supported ones, but mine none the less.) Now with my last I will be more aware. I don't think I am dedicated to two years. I greatly respect that decision for others but just not for me. I do want to be more honest with myself about my motives this time. I will aim for child respectful (which the other two certainly were) weaning sometime after 18 months or so.

[Fiona2]

My daughter weaned herself very suddently at 15 months, going from about 8 feeds every 24 hours to nothing overnight. She was in the middle of a nasty cold and every time she nursed she was sick. Nothing would entice her to nurse again. It definitely wasn't my decision. So yes, this can happen.

[Bleu]

I just wanted to pop in again and say that being accused of insensitivity has really made me feel bad -- for the poster who said it and, to be honest, for myself. I wanted to reiterate that I have no first-hand information on weaning at all, in that we haven't weaned (and I'm taking affirmative steps to keep from weaning). I respect other posters' experiences and value reading their stories -- that's why I'm here!

And I really hate that somehow these overtones of judgment seem to creep in no matter how hard posters seek to impersonally, neutrally discuss various nursing terms, e.g., extending nursing, exclusive breastfeeding, child-lead weaning, child-respectful weaning, ecological breastfeeding, etc. I think (hope) that if you knew me you would realize I am not into (and am very much against) that whole more-AP-than-thou trip. Obviously my original post failed because it sure didn't convey that.

CLW as compared to CRW -- true, there is a difference (and I think a number of posters have explained or offered posts to explain that difference better than I could), but stating that they are distinct from one another is NOT a value statement, at least not coming from me. I give my son a sippy cup, for example, and started him on solid foods at under seven months. Both are weaning techniques. Both are very gentle, respectful, (at least arguably) age-appropriate mothering choices -- *and* both are weaning techniques (especially if you offer them when your nursling asks to bf). I am comfortable with my choices here and I try hard to be thoroughly familiar with their impact on our breastfeeding relationship.

By participating here at MDC (and by reading a lot more than I post), I hope to learn from other, more experienced moms. Before this thread, for example, I had not heard stories before of children exhibiting CLW signs at such young ages without some encouragement (whether conscious or intentional or not) form the mom.

Please do not ascribe hurtful or snarky motivations to my posts; none was intended.

[jkpmomtoboys]

This has been an interesting thread. I'm the mom someone referred to whose child is self-weaning at 12 months. I do not want him to wean, just as I didn't want my older ds to wean at 20 months. But they both met (or is meeting) all the "criteria" for self-weaning as opposed to a nursing strike, so what more can you do? I continue to offer nursing to my 12 month old, on a daily basis at various times of the day, but obviously I'm not going to force my child to nurse

Anyway, I'm a pretty experienced breastfeeding mom and neither confused nor dishonest. But everyone's experience is different. Child-led weaning is child-led weaning...

Thanks for the interesting discussion!

[resimom]

i have always wanted to do clw but have never made it there.

my oldest was crw at 4 years due to a convenient opportunity (i had to be away for surgery). looking back i realize he was not ready .
my next was crw at 3 1/2 years due to a health issue with a pregnancy but was very near clw. with her i am sure she was close because i only told her once or twice we needed to not nurse anymore because of the new baby.
the next is still nursing with no interest in stopping at 3 1/2 years.
the next two are a year old. one eats a lot of solids, the other does not.

[shelbean91]

Since I believe that, I would have a lot of problems "allowing" my child to wean before that time frame.

nak-

if you don't allow your child to wean when they are trying to, how is that clw?

also, if overall weaning age is 4.2 yrs, wouldn't it make sense that some kids wean before 2 just as some wean after 6?

also, if a child 'self weans' b/c of pg, why wouldn't that be self weaning?

[mamadodson]

quote: I feel very strongly that every child deserves to be nursed for two years minimum. Since I believe that, I would have a lot of problems "allowing" my child to wean before that time frame. If there was nothing else I could do, I would pump, pump, pump as much as I could until at least two.

this disturbs me a little my daughter is only a year, so I cant say too much on this discussion, she is on a strike, but I see it as a strike and it will pass, however this comment really urks me, if my daughter decided to wean herself tomorrow, I wouldnt feel like I was a bad mom for not giving her what she "deserves" as said, and I dont think it should be a matter of allowing a child to wean, a child will wean when he or she wants to, so you saying allowing, is like you are making them want to nurse, and why would you keep pumping till 2 if your child didnt want it, what would you then do with it, what benefits would you get from continually pumping to see if your daughter or son would nurse, that just seems unlogical to me in the sense that you can't control the age your child wants to wean, unless it is made the only option for the child, which in my eyes, what 2 year old only wants to drink breast milk? and watch everyone else in the house eat table food, that just doesnt seem fair to me to try to push the issue if your child has lost interest..Jmo..

[mama24-7]

I have a few things to add, but since my dd hasn't weaned yet (she's just over 2 y.o.) I am speaking from other's experiences and what I've read in books (mostly LLL books) and on webforums like this one.

I've heard of children weaning before or at a year or so, but I think a few things were true about these situations which makes it less like CLW and more like mommy lead weaning:
* they were using a bottle and developed nipple preference (different from nipple confusion in that they prefered the bottle, were not confused by it) between 6-9 months. This mom considers her children self-weaned.
* BF was used as a food source only and not a comfort source. I know 3 brothers who weaned at 12, 13 & 14 months respectively. I know their mother used CIO when they were in the 6 month neighborhood and the first one was only nursing in the morning when he was 12 months so not much comfort nursing there. She considers them to have weaned themselves.
* "self-weaned" at 12 months by drinking yogurt drink instead.
* "mother-weaned" at 12 months because she wanted to wear a regular bra and sleep late on Saturdays while daddy attented to dd. Also wanted to get pregnant and didn't think could while nrusing.

For most of these children, in spite of how young they were when they weaned, I think most of them were luckier than many children in that they had been BF for as long as they had. I think that it would have been best for them if they hadn't weaned so young, but in most cases the mother's needs outweighed the child's (as often happens in our society ).

I believe in CLW & CRW. I do not want my daughter to wean but I don't always want to nurse her in the middle of grocery shopping either, so I offer her water or a snack. I'm very nervous about night weaning because it seems like some children wean completely when night weaned. However, I would like to have another child and since I get no help at night from dh, I don't know how I could do both.

I do not think we should criticize any mother whose child self-weans at a young age when the above things I mentioned aren't happening. It probably happened that these children were ready & mommy wasn't. It hurts twice to have someone criticize you for something you didn't want happen and probably tried to prevent. Every child is different and so every child's weaning will be different.

I think in cases where the motehr is not commited to BF for the long haul, it's more likely that the child will wean early, but I also know a mom in my LLL group who is only having 1 and he weaned shortly before age 2 and I don't know for sure, but I doubt it was CRW. He was ready. IT happens.

Susanne

[clothcrazymom]

Very interesting to read all the different thoughts on this!

It's a topic that I still try to get my brain around even after 16+ years of parenting. I read threads about night weaning and how some still feel that they are practicing CLW if they night wean, or at different ages CLW is valid and at others it is not. I find it all interesting.

Someone asked what the point in threads like this is. It really is NOT about trying to be judgemental or hurt anyone's feelings (as I think most have been really respectful on here). It's more about working through our own thoughts and feelings on these things for ourselves. Sometimes it helps to discuss these things and look at things from a different perspective. I really don't think that we start these threads to try to upset people. It's not like there are lots of different places available to discuss such things.

I hadn't seen "CRW" before. So I learned something new (as I usually do!) on this thread. And I guess I would say that with my older children we practiced CRW. My 1st child was 14 months when weaned and I definitely have never thought of it as CLW even though it was a slow gentle process. My 2nd child was 2 when she weaned and I used to say she CLW but I was never totally comfortable with that category since there does seem to be those that feel that if a mom delays or ever does the (don't offer/don't refuse) that it's not CLW. The process with her was a slow process that I have described as a dance. There were times that I led (distraction, delay, DODR, etc) but most of the time it was completely up to her. My youngest is 16 months and still nursing...so who knows how things will go with him....although I do have somewhat of a plan or agenda this time around.

Anyway...I thought I would just chime in to let everyone know that there was not any negative intentions in starting this thread. I hope it continues as I know I find it very interesting!

[TiredX2]

My 2nd child was 2 when she weaned and I used to say she CLW but I was never totally comfortable with that category since there does seem to be those that feel that if a mom delays or ever does the (don't offer/don't refuse) that it's not CLW.

Wow, that I have never heard. I, personally, don't think it is a mother's responsibility to encourage nursing past a certain age, but --- to each their own. Of course, most people who do "don't offer/don't refuse" do offer *on occasion* so maybe they were just talking about a 100% consistent application?

if you don't allow your child to wean when they are trying to, how is that clw?

also, if overall weaning age is 4.2 yrs, wouldn't it make sense that some kids wean before 2 just as some wean after 6?

also, if a child 'self weans' b/c of pg, why wouldn't that be self weaning?

I do not know what I would do if confronted with a child who "wanted" to wean before 2. I avoid that situation with other choices I make as much as possible. If a child weans during pregnancy that, imo, is a choice forced on them not one they would choose given a fully lactating mother. I am NOT saying it is bad, or that you can stop it, but that it is not generally (esp at a young age) a real "choice."

I dont think it should be a matter of allowing a child to wean, a child will wean when he or she wants to, so you saying allowing, is like you are making them want to nurse, and why would you keep pumping till 2 if your child didnt want it, what would you then do with it, what benefits would you get from continually pumping to see if your daughter or son would nurse, that just seems unlogical to me in the sense that you can't control the age your child wants to wean, unless it is made the only option for the child, which in my eyes, what 2 year old only wants to drink breast milk? and watch everyone else in the house eat table food, that just doesnt seem fair to me to try to push the issue if your child has lost interest..Jmo..

Once again, I need to point out I am talking about MY opinions, MY children and MY parenting. I am not suggesting any one else follow "My" rules.

If, indeed, my child had weaned (I'm guessing after a couple months effort) I would continue pumping so my child could have the MILK. Babies need milk for at least two years and I would want my child to have species specific milk.

Uhhh, what makes you think I would not allow my child access to table food? They both have gone straight to table food before a year. That has nothing to do with them nursing or what they are given to drink (human milk as their milk source, no bottles (so sucking has to come from mom)).

And what do you mean by "what 2 year old wants to drink only breast milk?" Uhhh, biologically probably *every* two year old. What other drink would you suggest? (I'd like to point out that my two year olds both consumed other drinks. I just think it's odd to assume that bmilk which can fill both hunger and thirst needs is somehow lacking ). Do you have an issue with only having healthy drinks available? Wouldn't a two year old rather eat candy and drink pop?

Edited to add: No, actually both of my two year olds would choose to nurse over candy/pop if they had to choose either/or.

[resimom]

Originally Posted by TiredX2

Edited to add: No, actually both of my two year olds would choose to nurse over candy/pop if they had to choose either/or.

my 3 1/2 yo would take the candy, then the nursing, then the pop if she had to choose.

does that make her close to clw :LOL ?

[mamadodson]

TiredX2...you are clearly missing the point that that as well is MY OPINION>....you made it sound like a mom who didnt "allow" a child to nurse till 2 is wrong...I think if a mom nursed for 2 months atleast she did that...JUST MY OPINION THOUGH.......I wasnt aiming towards you and no table food, if I was aiming it torwards you I would have clearly stated you name as I have above...I come to mdc to give my opinions, and am mostly enlightened by everyone elses, with hope that people dont jump all over someone, I was simply asking questions to understand your opinion better,and stating that in my opinion, it is disturbing...people disagree, that is the way it goes, but I respect your opinion, just dont agree...no big thing to get all upset about...I agree eveyone and every situation and child is different..

[Tinas3muskateers]

I am new here but I believe in CLW My ds is only 6 months old and we have no future plans on weaning untill he is ready but me personally I cannot see myself nursing past the age of 2. I however have given him 2 years (or will) of my milk, the best thing he could have in those two years, if he still wants it. If he were to self wean after a year I wouldnt think of myself any less of a mother or a person. He got it longer then most babies do. If its CLW, let the child lead. I will not force my son to BF because the WHO says age 2 is best.

[Shonahsmom]

Regarding the OP's question, my dd did CLW at 25 months. It was very gradual from about 20 months. She started skipping a day here or there and then a few days and then she stopped.

She was always EBF, never had a bottle, has never liked or really drank cow's milk or juice and wasn't interested in and didn't really start eating solds until after her 1st b-day. We also co-slept and I never refused her nightime nursing, but she had stopped completely and was consistently sleeping through the night from about 15 months.

I totally mourned the end of the nursing relationship and was suprised that it happened so soon, but it genuinely was child led.

[Cinder]

I have a friend who's son weaned at 9 months, which was just when she entered into her second trimester...I also have an older friend of the family (youngest child is 20) who's middle son weaned himself at 16 months...again though, it was during her second trimester... I think pregnancy leads to self weaning a lot.

Honestly at this point I think my baby hates to nurse. He struggles the whole time, and is definitely more comforted by cuddling skin to skin than nursing...in fact I usually have to comfort him after nursing, he's 5 months old, I can't see him wanting to nurse longer than a year...in fact if he knew bottles were an option (I've never offered one) I'd think he'd have quit already... Such the exact opposite of my daugher who still loves to nurse at 2 years old.

[slightly crunchy]

I often have my doubts when I read about CLW before the age of two. I think sometimes people don't realize that "don't offer, don't refuse" with toddlers, especially preverbal ones, is a weaning technique. Not that it is a bad thing.

OTOH, I feel a little irked when I've seen on other threads, that some people think practically no child will self wean before the age of 4. I think it's easy to let our own, narrow (though individually rich) experiences color our opinions about this topic. Looking at my 2.5 year old, I'd say there would be no way he'd self wean for at least another year. But, does that mean every kid is just like mine, or most of ours here? Of course not. And who's to say, that because most of us "believe" in bf past the age of two, we weren't completely neutral in our approach to bf. Where other mothers did subtle things to ENcourage weaning, maybe I have done subtle things to DIScourage it, and to encourage my son to nurse a long time. It's a matter of perspective.

I also believe that little children sense and have a knowing about things so much more than we know. I think in some cases, even little toddlers know when their moms really don't want to nurse them anymore, and perhaps pick up on that. Even on days where I really don't feel like nursing my son, overall I do love it and want him to nurse.

[mother_sunshine]

I'm feeling to need to step up on the soapbox....I'm not doing this offend anyone, I just feel the need to try my 2-cents at keeping this Mothering forum in check.

It makes me sad to see this happening at MDC, different ways to show others that it is okay to wean before 2 (or 1 or whatever). We are the only place where Moms can get encouragment to nurse past the social norm and yet we are in the midst of an "argument" of sorts to justify a child weaning before the age of 2 (be it "self-led" or not). On the one hand I think it's good that everyone is trying really hard to avoid insulting or hurting anyone, but OTOH this is MOTHERING. We are supposed to encourage mothers to nurse beyond 2, to avoid early weaning, to go against the grain and look at society's faults in the raising of children and be bold enough make changes.

There apparently is such a thing as a child self-weaning before the age of 2 (and I too do not see early weaning because of pregnancy as child-led or self-weaning... same with other distractions, manipulations, or unavailability of the mother and her milk). I genuinely feel sorrow for the mother and child for having no other choice, and I feel for those mothers who have expressed that here. I understand their need to be validated, but we must be careful with what kind of message we are sending.

The evidence is out there that a child should nurse at least 2 years (see below), I am saddened that mothers cannot look past societal pressure/opinion for the good of their own child's health and well-being (and for the good of our future in general). Yes, all children are different and some do wean earlier than expected but far far FAR more children are weaned earlier than they would if only their mothers would give them the opportunity that they deserve. The numbers of children who actually do not need to nurse past 2 (or whatever) pale in comparison to those who do. If we are to have a paradigm shift (or a change in attitude as to what the "norm" should be), Mothering is the place that should encourage it. We should not be afraid of stepping on the toes of those who are actually encouraging the current mainstream opinion on an otherwise very un-mainstream forum. If we say that it's okay to wean at 2, or if enough mothers say that their children "self-weaned" at 1 or 2, what kind of message is that sending the mothers who come here looking for what is truly normal and natural, not what is currently socially normal (or unknowingly very rare), KWIM?

My dd has weaned already but I still come here to offer other mamas support to continue, not to help justify why it is okay to not continue (which is what most of us get in daily life anyway). If the child is younger than 2, he/she should be encouraged to continue. Not by force but by the mother making every effort possible to make her milk available to her child.

AAFP Policies on Health Issues > Breastfeeding (Position Paper)
http://www.aafp.org/x6633.xml
"Breastfeeding should ideally continue beyond infancy, but this is currently not the cultural norm and requires ongoing support and encouragement.85 If the child is younger than two years of age, the child is at increased risk of illness if weaned. 61"

"Parents and health professionals need to recognize that the benefits of breastfeeding (nutritional, immunological, cognitive, emotional) continue as long as breastfeeding itself does, and that there never comes a point when you can replace breast milk with infant formula, cows' milk or any other food, or breastfeeding with a pacifier or teddy bear, without some costs to the child."
-- KA Dettwyler, "Beauty and the Breast" from Breastfeeding: Biocultural Perspectives, 1995, p. 204.
Source: http://www.kellymom.com/bf/weaning/babyselfwean.html

From Katherine Dettwyler, PhD
http://www.prairienet.org/laleche/dettoddler.html
"Studies have shown that a child's immune system doesn't completely mature until about 6 years of age, and it is well established that breast milk helps develop the immune system and augment it with maternal antibodies as long as breast milk is produced. ...the "natural" age at weaning in modern humans would be between 2.5 and 7.0 years, if we didn't have various cultural beliefs about how long it should be. I looked at lots of different data, and the absolute minimum age was 2.5 years. All of the studies done to date on the health benefits of breastfeeding show continued health benefits and IQ increases up to 2 years of age. Beyond two years of age? There haven't been any studies yet. But it is hard to imagine that all the good nutritional benefits, immunological benefits, and long-chain polyunsaturated fatty acids thought to be responsible for the IQ boosts would suddenly disappear the day after the child's second birthday! "

[yoga]

"don't offer, don't refuse" is definately a weaning technique.

is there really a question about that in the general population? if so, that's not a good thing.

I think CLW is just that...child-led weaning. Other posters have made great points about this. CLW is not: "don't offer, don't refuse"; mama's milk is diminishing; mama is gone a lot and access is diminished; redirection when asking to nurse.

I even think if you've night-weaned, you can't really claim to have had CLW.

I like the term CRW, but I wonder: how respectful is it if the child's not ready and deciding to do it his/herself?

[UrbanPlanter]

Mother_Sunshine!

My 2cents: DS is going to be 2.5 yo next month, and still bf's often 24/7. I'm sure this will continue for at least another year, and who knows how long after that?

I consider myself an "ecological" breastfeeder. I have always/still do breastfeed on demand (except now there are incidents where I have to delay, like in a car or at times of great inconvenience - esp. since I can't nurse in a sling anymore and ds is almost 40lbs); I've never used pacifiers or any artificial soothers, bottles, etc.; ds has never had a "lovey" (I am his lovey ); we still co-sleep; ds nurses whenever he wants day or night....

I started solids later than usual, and I never forced ds to eat anything he didn't want; he didn't want to eat solids until nearly 18 mo. To this day he might skip a meal to breastfeed. He eats a lot more now, but his main liquid is breastmilk or water.

I don't get one of the previous posts which said something about "what toddler would want to only drink bm or just drink bm and watch everyone eat solids" or something like that. That is so not what is going on with us. If ds wants to eat solids, he eats them; sometimes a lot, sometimes just a little, sometimes none at all. I consider breastmilk far superior than cow's milk, and cow's milk is just not an option in our home. He doesn't need it. He thinks it's for coffee. He doesn't even know what it tastes like! Breastmilk is designed for humans, and that's what he gets. He loves it! He loves how it tastes, he loves the comfort of nursing, he loves to nurse.

Anyway, I hold no judgements on other mother's durations of breastfeeding their children. I am following my ds' lead and needs and never imagined I would nurse this long; but we might only be halfway through our nursing relationship as it is. Time will tell.

But, I do have to note that of all of my friends whose children have weaned, whether or not they say their dc's self-weaned, all of them have had at least one of the following: early solids, pacifiers, cio, nightweaning, cows milk, distraction from nursing, a lot of solids introduced very quickly... I always wonder about a child who is considered "self-weaned" before even 2.5 years.

[MsMoMpls]

Originally Posted by mother_sunshine

It makes me sad to see this happening at MDC, different ways to show others that it is okay to wean before 2 (or 1 or whatever). We are the only place where Moms can get encouragment to nurse past the social norm and yet we are in the midst of an "argument" of sorts to justify a child weaning before the age of 2 (be it "self-led" or not). On the one hand I think it's good that everyone is trying really hard to avoid insulting or hurting anyone, but OTOH this is MOTHERING. We are supposed to encourage mothers to nurse beyond 2, to avoid early weaning, to go against the grain and look at society's faults in the raising of children and be bold enough make changes.

That may be your agenda but is it MOTHERING's? I don't want encouragment to nurse past 2. Not interested. Read the stuff, ok for others but not for me.

I do need encouragement. Lots of it. I need to feel my choices are valid. That I can decide what is best for me and my family, that I don't have to follow societies norms or Mothers either.

I am very committed to BF but have done lots of those things that will likely lead to early weaning. Things I am ok with like working part-time, using a bottle, and introducing solids when I felt ds and I were ready. One year is ok with me. But this conversation has really opened my eyes to my choice of language, my assumptions about nursing. I am leading my nursing experience, I take responsibility for that. I also agree with the poster that many women encourage late nursing which may therefore not be fully child driven.