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Why shouldn't AP be about rules? - Page 3

post #41 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by my~hearts~light
The matter is that it's unfair to assume that a set of rules works for everyone. What's the point in rules that CANNOT be followed by all? Just to make typical moms wit typical babies feel good about themsleves?
Not even most typical moms with typical babies can do all of that without exception. At least, I can't.

We all know why there shouldn't be "rules" -- and those that don't get it yet have the rest of their life to learn why. Experience is a great teacher.

This culture doesn't support attachment parenting, making it much harder for us to strive for our ideals.

I'm content to believe the OP has never walked in my shoes (or yours) or she wouldn't make such a judgemental statement. One day, I believe that she will realize that life isn't black and white. It is constantly doing the best you can while striving for your ideals.

And it is lifting people up, not knocking them down.

If you feel really good about yourself, you don't have the same need to look down on others or constantly compare to prove to yourself how good you are.

I want to make a tee shirt that says "Support Mothers of Young Children! I am doing the best I can. Don't judge me. Offer to help." For now I am willing to take the dirty looks from both AP and mainstream moms who judge me to be "not good enough".
post #42 of 117
I would, for some. Not all. It wouldn't work for a baby who simply doesn't want to suck an empty breast or a full breast for that matter. It wouldn't work for a baby who has severe clefting, health problems of a huge spectrum, ect ect. It's a novel idea.
post #43 of 117
Lara, you make the point so much better and more eloquently than I. Thanks!!
post #44 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniperJoy
Bad back fracture: work with a physiotherapist. If you can do the laundry, you can carry the baby. Nothing builds muscles like carrying your baby.

Americans (North Americans) are so fat and lazy it's shameful.
OMG, did you just call suseyblue FAT and LAZY for having a physical impairment?

post #45 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniperJoy

Bad back fracture: work with a physiotherapist. If you can do the laundry, you can carry the baby. Nothing builds muscles like carrying your baby.

Americans (North Americans) are so fat and lazy it's shameful.
I agree with the pp that this is an awful thing to say. Obviously Suseyblue is just being lazy, and if she really wanted to, she could carry her baby.
YOU ought to be ashamed of yourself for implying such a thing about someone who (IMO) is obviously a good mother who does the best she can by her child, in spite of a physical problem. This has niggled at me since I read this thread this morning, thanks HMBaby for articulating it for me.
post #46 of 117
The OP is so over the top that I can't take it seriously. I just laughed.

Especially at the fat and lazy part. I am thin, fit, and a former athlete with no history of back problems. Even *my* back starts to have problems from the baby carrying I do. I can only imagine how it feels for others not in my position.

Next time my back starts to twitch, I'll remind myself I'm fat and lazy. :

- - off to brush up on my rulebook - -
post #47 of 117
I just don't like labels, and don't even use the terms "AP" "attachment parenting," or "natural family living" to describe how we parent our children. If anything, I prefer the term "conscious" or "mindful" parenting. I don't like the idea (and I'm talking about me, not what I think everyone "should" do) of checking off a list, and if I can't check off one or more items, that's it, I'm not good enough. I parent the way I do because it works and makes for happy kids--I breastfeed, sleep with them, hold them lots, both in slings and in arms, and don't let them cry without responding right away. I also use strollers, when appropriate, swings and bouncy seats occaisionally, and I just bought a pack-n-play for the new upcoming baby to have a safe place to sleep at times when I need to give full attention to my other two children.

There are many wonderful, loving mamas here who can't check off every item on the list of ap rules, and they have very legitimate reasons for not being able to breastfeed, sling constantly, or sleep with their babies. Mamas who don't follow the rules to a "T" don't love their children any less. We need to support each other for doing the best we can with the circumstances we've been given.
post #48 of 117
Other people have posted comments on the idea of AP rules already, much eloquently than I could (thanks, Laralou). So I will just add this about breastfeeding.

In theory I totally agree with the breastfeeding rule. Do your best to get the baby on the breast. Or at least get some breastmilk in the baby's belly.
In practice it's not so easy. Remember how cute it is to call our breasts "restaurants". They're also tied to our body image, negative or positive. They're also tied to our sexuality. Some women cannot (and I mean cannot mentally) breastfeed because of history of abuse. IN nursing school I cared for a woman whose mind over matter was so strong that even pitocin couldn't bring on labor. She did not want to deliver vaginally, and she got her c-section eventually. She was a sexual abuse survivor who was still working through issues with her body. She didn't breastfeed either, for the same reason. If she ever has more children maybe she'll be in a different place in her healing. But she was doing the best she could mentally by her baby by not breastfeeding and getting the c-section she wanted. She knew the drill, knew the benefits and risks of either set of choices. Her previous experience lead her to make the right choice for her. In her shoes I can't say what I would have chosen. I was disheartened at how all the nurses picked up on her history and it went right over her OB's head. Clearly working through the issue of her sexual abuse history was not part of her prenatal care. Maybe it would have if she had chosen a midwife. Maybe she chose that particular OB because of her history.
I have a friend for whom breastfeeding and vaginal birth has been part of her healing process to sexual abuse.

We can all strive for ideals. "Rules" can set us up for judgement and failure. The rules of the OP make my heart ache for this woman because she would be judged an AP failure. She was a SAHM btw, with very little family support during the day. She had very low self esteem, poor self image, depression. I'm sad to think that she might be judged by well meaning fellow moms, too, where she could really use some love and support. As a survivor of abuse parenting might prove to be that much harder.
post #49 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechen
The OP is so over the top that I can't take it seriously. I just laughed.

Especially at the fat and lazy part. -
It is true. I start to like her at that point cause I'm a fan of people who'll say anything (hence my fanhood for Courteny love)
post #50 of 117
Quote:
RULE #5 – Cosleep

Babies need a grown up nearby. They can DIE if you keep them isolated behind bars in another room.
They can die while sleeping on a mother's chest too, as we learned about in a seminar about SIDS a lifetime ago for me: real life local SW PA situation too, and the mom was an RN, knew CPR, did CPR, CPR didn't work....

Apparently there's no safe place for a baby to sleep then?

I like Amarasmom's response too. It's about responding to the needs of every family member in loving gentle ways to the best of our ability, improving as we learn more, continuing to try when we have an off incident.

While I agree with those as ideals, I see that in RL there are many ways to achieve them.
post #51 of 117
About using an SNS.

My baby has a cleft palate. The only way for her to eat is from the special bottles we have for her. An SNS flat out will not work, for the same reason that nursing doesn't work, and the same reason regular bottles won't work. She has no capability to produce suction. Imagine sucking liquid from a straw with a hole in it. That should give you an idea of the hell my little baby went through for 5 weeks.

I am very proud to say that I am breastfeeding her. I am pumping 5 times a day for 30 minutes to get her her mama's milk. That is 2.5 hours every day that I spend hooked up to a pump. Add to that the time that it takes to feed her. Yes, I hold her close in a cradle hold each and every feeding (unless DH is holding her close to feed her).

Her cleft wasn't discovered until she was 5 weeks old. I was nursing until then. Nursing, but she wasn't getting much, if anything. For her, nursing has not been a wonderful, beautiful, bonding experience. It's been about hunger, pain, and frustration.

I have been able to get her to latch on a few times since then, but she hasn't been very interested. That's not surprising. What on earth would motivate her to go through more of that frustration?! I have hopes to get her back on the breast after surgery. Maybe having milk she can access will convince her to nurse.

I should also add that I have a 3.5 year old. How much can I put her through? She already has to wait patiently while I pump, feed and take care of the baby. Now, you're saying, I should make her wait for my attention while I try fruitlessly to get the baby to latch on and become frustrated?

No, I have to make decisions that are right for both children. I have to balance both of their needs.


Bec
post #52 of 117
T
Quote:
Actually, I don't know. I've never used or seen a SNS. Why wouldn't it work?
I tried one, didn't work with my DD when she was unable to nurse. At only two months old, she would spit my nipple out and suck on the tube because she knew that's where the milk was coming from. Or if she wanted comfort, she would spit the tube out and suck on my nipple instead. I had to supplement because she was physically unable to nurse or to stimulate a decent supply. I tried every sort of system imaginable, and what actually worked best for her was to use bottles and a faster flowing nipple, which goes against every single bit of advice I was ever given. I was very lucky in that I was finally able to pump enough milk for her and she eventually was able to nurse without supplements, but making breastfeeding work was the hardest thing I've ever had to do in my life. I would never presume to judge a woman who says she tried to nurse and couldn't. It really is sometimes impossible to make it work. If I had different circumstances and a little less patience, or a little less support, or if my DD hadn't had such horrible reactions to formulas of all kinds, I would never have stuck with it and made it work for us either. Be glad you have never had to do those "triple feedings" because that is the closest thing to torture I can imagine a new mom having to go through! Just imagine, you haven't slept in months and you may very well have symptoms of ppd (or ptsd, in my case)...you put baby to your breast, but baby can't nurse so baby screams and fights you the entire time...then you give a supplement (pick your method, they all take time in preparation and in the feeding)...as soon as baby is done with the supplement, you have to pump...you might have a chance to pee before you have to nurse baby again, you might not, and if DH hasn't made you a stack of sanwiches to snack on while you attempt to nurse your baby, you surely don't have time to eat. repeat.

now, come to think of it, this reply of mine isn't that off-topic anyway, because there are always exceptions to the "rules" and every baby and every family's situation is different. AP is all about doing what's best for your baby, and your family, given your unique circumstances.
post #53 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by laralou
If you feel really good about yourself, you don't have the same need to look down on others or constantly compare to prove to yourself how good you are.
I want a t-shirt that says this on it!!!
post #54 of 117
Then of course there are a host of other reasons it wouldn't work. I think the PP said it just right when she said she had to make decisions that were healthy for ALL her children. I can tell you first hand, it's not healthy for a toddler to sit waiting hour after hour while mommy pumps for the baby. Yes, breastfeeding is ideal and a hell of alot easier than all that.


For that matter, there are also exclusions to cosleeping. I couldn't cosleep with my baby in my bed even if I wanted to. She was on an apnea monitor and while on a monitor it's not safe to cosleep. How many babies come home on a monitor of some kind? ALOT! Lots of preemie and babies with special needs do. Those parents have to do what is best for the health of their baby, not their mother supreme ego.
post #55 of 117
Oh good grief! Love your babies! Do your best to give them what they need to grow up healthy and happy.

If other people think you are screwing up by not being AP enough, strict enough, religious enough, natural enough etc. in your parenting, smile politely and know that you are the mama!

We all make mistakes and would do some things differently. We all learn as we go along. I learn from people who I admire as parents and from those who I would never choose to emulate.

I hope that I am both humble enough to admit my failings and proud enough to celebrate my strengths as a mother. My son is the only one who I have to prove myself to. He knows that I love him. Anyone else's feelings about my parenting are secondary.
post #56 of 117
I would also like to point out that the "rules" don't work with all kids. For example, ds3 hated the sling. Wouldn't go in it. He never wanted to be held as a newborn (ask tnrsmom I tried all the time). He slept better alone. It was sad for me b/c I had always slung my kids and slept with them. I felt like a "bad" AP mom for this. How ridiculous that seems now. His personality is just so "stand offish". If you ask me, the "rules" are silly. If you feel good parenting the way you are then go for it. I don't think anyone that abuses their children can honestly say they feel good about it.
post #57 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessemoon
Oh good grief! Love your babies! Do your best to give them what they need to grow up healthy and happy.

If other people think you are screwing up by not being AP enough, strict enough, religious enough, natural enough etc. in your parenting, smile politely and know that you are the mama!

We all make mistakes and would do some things differently. We all learn as we go along. I learn from people who I admire as parents and from those who I would never choose to emulate.

I hope that I am both humble enough to admit my failings and proud enough to celebrate my strengths as a mother. My son is the only one who I have to prove myself to. He knows that I love him. Anyone else's feelings about my parenting are secondary.


That is so wonderfully written, In reading this entire thread, it sounds like the OP is actually resentful at HAVING to follow rules to be AP. That's why my hubby and I say we are responsive gentle and instinctive parents instead.
post #58 of 117
Here Here to the many AP mama's who have an open mind and heart.

I don't know what is wrong with the OP that she would so badly misconstrue AP to mean that a child must be held, even if they hate it. My first DD hated being held, slung whatever. She loved being in a babyseat where she could look at me. She hated being touched so much that when I BF'd her she would stop if I touched her with my hands and thus I used to put them behind my back as soon as she latched on. I would never have disrespected her so much that I would have insisted on touching her when that made her miserable.

The OP implies that its ok to make them sling when they don't like it because they will get used to it and eventually be happy. Isn't that the same exact agrument made by people who advocate CIO????????????
post #59 of 117
"Each time a parent questions whether she is truly an AP parent because they have chosen not to follow one or another of these methods, it is a heartbreaking blow to the essential self-assurance that all parents deserve."

Read more of this great essay, "Attachment parenting is a frame of mind," by Diana West, from the kellymom.com site:

http://www.kellymom.com/parenting/ap-frame-of-mind.html
post #60 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniperJoy
Rule#1 – NO CIO
Rule#2 – Breastfeed
RULE #3 – Baby bonds with a primary caregiver
RULE #4 – Wear your baby
RULE #5 – Cosleep
...
I really try to sling my 12 year old, but his feet drag on the ground, maybe you could suggest another position?

I think you can tell how young the OPs children are by her list. I also think some of the most important AP work comes when all the things on those list are just a memory. That list reads to me like my BIL's justifications for being "Babywise" do. Rules, rules and more rules. How did we all get so insecure about our ability to parent well?

Although I must admit to having two rules myself:

1. Love yourself
2. Love your child.
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