This woman's questions show a very basic misunderstanding of what the Genital Integrity movement is all about, and what intactivists stand for.
She has PROJECTED a reciprocal discrimination (that of the circumcisied status class against the uncircumcised) of onto the individuals of a human rights movement. She wants to know if our movement is a backlash against the prejudice that the "uncircumcised" have encountered at the hands of a bigoted people who she apparently knows better than we.
We don't promote genital integrity because we have something against circumcised people. We defend the rights of circumcised people- that they had a whole right to their body and no one had a right to cut a piece of them off. As well as the rights of whole people to remain whole. They are not the bad guy, they are the victim. They are the victim when they hurt their baby, they are the victim when they believe insulting concepts about their own body, they are a victim when they perpetuate lies without investigating them, they are a victim when they go against their instincts, they are a victim when they insist that barbaric is normal. From the top to the bottom- the whole thing is one big sick cycle- and no one gets into that sickness voluntarily.
These questions remind me of a woman I ran into at a birth professionals conference- she was so agitated by our message- and so determined to dismiss it as inconsequential... she kept saying to her friends as she tried to get them to move on away from our information table- "It doesn't matter- It doesn't matter" finally she asked one of the men working if he was circumcised and he said he was- but then added that the man next to him was not... "THERE YOU HAVE IT" she gestured- "It doesn't MATTER!" Her argument was that because these two men can be friends with eachother- that was all the proof SHE NEEDED that this was a choice that parents can make without having any effect on the man's life... she was UNABLE to consider that losing a part of the sex organ might be something that mattered to THEM. To one it mattered that he had lost it, and to the other it mattered that he DOES NOT lose it. It does matter. But she was so far from understanding what we were about- she was disproving an argument that didn't even matter to US.
Her approach to what SHE presumed the issue was- Shockingly off base! But SOOOO revealing. she went right to the core of HER belief system- which was that circumcision is about dividing people- the circumcised from the uncircumcised. She wanted to publicly argue that it didn't matter- but from the fact that she could only concieve that this was the foundation of our gripe with circumcision- it reveals that she herself has a belief in the value (whether right or wrong) in circumcision to divide people.
She doesnt want to circ but DH and both families are pressuring her to circ.
So she is in a position of being split by circumcision. She can split from her instincts, or she can split from circumcisers who want to dominate her and put their mark on her child. Circumcision divides.
If so many people dont believe in circ and are stopping friendships and losing family members of it would it be different if an adopted child was already circed?
Who is losing family members? Is she concerned that WE have turned our back on family members because we don't like that they circumcised... OR is She afraid that SHE will lose family members because she REFUSES to circumcise? That pendulum swings both ways... so let's figure it out from HER shoes. What is the real question? Does she have any family members who will turn their back on her if she circumcises? Is anyone speaking up for her child's genital integrity? The people who want her to circumcise- what do they stand to gain by it? What is their interest? This has nothing to do with adopting a child.
Her parents refused to ler her date a man before that hadnt been circed and she was wondering if the other end of the spectrum was the same.
What is the foundation of her parents PREJUDICE against people who are not circumcised? How can they abhor the normal human form so much that THAT ALONE would cancel a man out? (another great reason to not wish for a girl to parents who love circumcision) How did they know he was not circumcised? How did they enforce this rule? Why did she comply? How did she feel about this? Is there any intact man who they would have let her date? Is there any circumcised man they would have refused? How far does the status of circumcision go with her parents?
One problem with "allowing" your daughter to marry a circumcised man, is that she may now be inheriting a set of in-laws with brutal standards they would like to impose on your grandchildren. Standards they have a strong motivation to perpetuate because of their own treatment of your son in law... they want what they did to him to be respected and prepetuated. And often times the circumcised man feels the same- he wants what was done to him to be justified, and he justifies it by doing it to his son. It's not so much the circumcision on the wonderful man which is the problem... it's what that involvement with infant mutilation and people who believe in it is going to introduce to your family... because family trees don't just "branch" they converge. Despite the fact that the form of the grandchild's foreskin was carried to him through the genes of that family- the pressure to mutilate will also be carried to him through that family- unless they are able to be reasoned with, it is possible that the child's genital integrity will rest solely on the character of the one person who has the desire and the power to defend him from mutilators.
Now that prejudice against the uncircumcised is not just about someone else's family, it is againts her own child, their grandchildren...is the prejudice so deep that they would turn against him and the woman who blessed them with his birth? A new baby in your family is a blessing they should get down on their knees and rejoice over... not get on the phone and gossip about.
A friend of ours just recentley (2 weeks ago) agreed to ler her 12 yr old get circed because he was being teased and made fun of in jr high school because he was intact. The mom doesnt approve of it but believed he was old enough to make the right decision.
Well, he was not old enough to make that decision. And what she did was ireresponsable and tragic. She SHOULD have taken the issue to the school and sued them for sexual harassment and then moved to a new district. Sound extreme? Letting your child deface their body because of DISCRIMATION OF HATEFUL PEOPLE RAISED BY IGNORAMUSES is disgraceful! She would not have let a daughter mutilate herself to conform with mutilated peers. That boy had no idea what he was doing to himself... In fact- I rememebr distinctly at twelve asking my mother what an orgasm WAS. A twelve year old is NOT in a position to decide on what sexual anatomy they can do without. And people who have never had that anatomy are not in a position to set the tone for the decision making model.
Plus when she gets back to work she is up for a job promotion and her boss asked her what her circ plans were during her baby shower.
Interesting... I think she should go/call and openly ask her boss for their advice / opinion on circumcision. She does not need to disclose her choice or leaning, but if her boss has expressed interest- then it is respectful for HER to invite her boss to say their thing. That alone will probably earn the brownie points she is afraid of losing by making the "wrong" choice. Put your money where your mouth is... if the boss is just being nosy- they don't get an answer without putting their own opinion out there for her to be aware of. She should thank them genuinely for sharing, regardless if she agrees personally. If she thinks that her boss would discriminate against her because she chose to protect the genital integrity of her child- that is too bad- she works for a pea-brain who is out of sync with the majority of the world's population and all the the world's medical associations.
She said the surrogate question was from something her MIL said in regards to allowing someone to make the choices for thier child whether they give birth or a surrogate does for them. She said she will have to ask her MIL what she meant by that later.
I don't think you buy a child like a pair of pants and alter them to fit you. If you are blessed with a child you accept that blessing and do not disrespect that child or the miracle which allowed him to come into your life with such superficial brutal treatment for the whims of sexual opressives. The rights of the child can be protected and no one has a claim to his body. You have the honor to care for him, you do not own him.
By the way- there is a sperm bank in California which refuses to contract with people who would circumcise.
http://www.gayspermbank.com/
love Sarah
She has PROJECTED a reciprocal discrimination (that of the circumcisied status class against the uncircumcised) of onto the individuals of a human rights movement. She wants to know if our movement is a backlash against the prejudice that the "uncircumcised" have encountered at the hands of a bigoted people who she apparently knows better than we.
We don't promote genital integrity because we have something against circumcised people. We defend the rights of circumcised people- that they had a whole right to their body and no one had a right to cut a piece of them off. As well as the rights of whole people to remain whole. They are not the bad guy, they are the victim. They are the victim when they hurt their baby, they are the victim when they believe insulting concepts about their own body, they are a victim when they perpetuate lies without investigating them, they are a victim when they go against their instincts, they are a victim when they insist that barbaric is normal. From the top to the bottom- the whole thing is one big sick cycle- and no one gets into that sickness voluntarily.
These questions remind me of a woman I ran into at a birth professionals conference- she was so agitated by our message- and so determined to dismiss it as inconsequential... she kept saying to her friends as she tried to get them to move on away from our information table- "It doesn't matter- It doesn't matter" finally she asked one of the men working if he was circumcised and he said he was- but then added that the man next to him was not... "THERE YOU HAVE IT" she gestured- "It doesn't MATTER!" Her argument was that because these two men can be friends with eachother- that was all the proof SHE NEEDED that this was a choice that parents can make without having any effect on the man's life... she was UNABLE to consider that losing a part of the sex organ might be something that mattered to THEM. To one it mattered that he had lost it, and to the other it mattered that he DOES NOT lose it. It does matter. But she was so far from understanding what we were about- she was disproving an argument that didn't even matter to US.
Her approach to what SHE presumed the issue was- Shockingly off base! But SOOOO revealing. she went right to the core of HER belief system- which was that circumcision is about dividing people- the circumcised from the uncircumcised. She wanted to publicly argue that it didn't matter- but from the fact that she could only concieve that this was the foundation of our gripe with circumcision- it reveals that she herself has a belief in the value (whether right or wrong) in circumcision to divide people.
She doesnt want to circ but DH and both families are pressuring her to circ.
So she is in a position of being split by circumcision. She can split from her instincts, or she can split from circumcisers who want to dominate her and put their mark on her child. Circumcision divides.
If so many people dont believe in circ and are stopping friendships and losing family members of it would it be different if an adopted child was already circed?
Who is losing family members? Is she concerned that WE have turned our back on family members because we don't like that they circumcised... OR is She afraid that SHE will lose family members because she REFUSES to circumcise? That pendulum swings both ways... so let's figure it out from HER shoes. What is the real question? Does she have any family members who will turn their back on her if she circumcises? Is anyone speaking up for her child's genital integrity? The people who want her to circumcise- what do they stand to gain by it? What is their interest? This has nothing to do with adopting a child.
Her parents refused to ler her date a man before that hadnt been circed and she was wondering if the other end of the spectrum was the same.
What is the foundation of her parents PREJUDICE against people who are not circumcised? How can they abhor the normal human form so much that THAT ALONE would cancel a man out? (another great reason to not wish for a girl to parents who love circumcision) How did they know he was not circumcised? How did they enforce this rule? Why did she comply? How did she feel about this? Is there any intact man who they would have let her date? Is there any circumcised man they would have refused? How far does the status of circumcision go with her parents?
One problem with "allowing" your daughter to marry a circumcised man, is that she may now be inheriting a set of in-laws with brutal standards they would like to impose on your grandchildren. Standards they have a strong motivation to perpetuate because of their own treatment of your son in law... they want what they did to him to be respected and prepetuated. And often times the circumcised man feels the same- he wants what was done to him to be justified, and he justifies it by doing it to his son. It's not so much the circumcision on the wonderful man which is the problem... it's what that involvement with infant mutilation and people who believe in it is going to introduce to your family... because family trees don't just "branch" they converge. Despite the fact that the form of the grandchild's foreskin was carried to him through the genes of that family- the pressure to mutilate will also be carried to him through that family- unless they are able to be reasoned with, it is possible that the child's genital integrity will rest solely on the character of the one person who has the desire and the power to defend him from mutilators.
Now that prejudice against the uncircumcised is not just about someone else's family, it is againts her own child, their grandchildren...is the prejudice so deep that they would turn against him and the woman who blessed them with his birth? A new baby in your family is a blessing they should get down on their knees and rejoice over... not get on the phone and gossip about.
A friend of ours just recentley (2 weeks ago) agreed to ler her 12 yr old get circed because he was being teased and made fun of in jr high school because he was intact. The mom doesnt approve of it but believed he was old enough to make the right decision.
Well, he was not old enough to make that decision. And what she did was ireresponsable and tragic. She SHOULD have taken the issue to the school and sued them for sexual harassment and then moved to a new district. Sound extreme? Letting your child deface their body because of DISCRIMATION OF HATEFUL PEOPLE RAISED BY IGNORAMUSES is disgraceful! She would not have let a daughter mutilate herself to conform with mutilated peers. That boy had no idea what he was doing to himself... In fact- I rememebr distinctly at twelve asking my mother what an orgasm WAS. A twelve year old is NOT in a position to decide on what sexual anatomy they can do without. And people who have never had that anatomy are not in a position to set the tone for the decision making model.
Plus when she gets back to work she is up for a job promotion and her boss asked her what her circ plans were during her baby shower.
Interesting... I think she should go/call and openly ask her boss for their advice / opinion on circumcision. She does not need to disclose her choice or leaning, but if her boss has expressed interest- then it is respectful for HER to invite her boss to say their thing. That alone will probably earn the brownie points she is afraid of losing by making the "wrong" choice. Put your money where your mouth is... if the boss is just being nosy- they don't get an answer without putting their own opinion out there for her to be aware of. She should thank them genuinely for sharing, regardless if she agrees personally. If she thinks that her boss would discriminate against her because she chose to protect the genital integrity of her child- that is too bad- she works for a pea-brain who is out of sync with the majority of the world's population and all the the world's medical associations.
She said the surrogate question was from something her MIL said in regards to allowing someone to make the choices for thier child whether they give birth or a surrogate does for them. She said she will have to ask her MIL what she meant by that later.
I don't think you buy a child like a pair of pants and alter them to fit you. If you are blessed with a child you accept that blessing and do not disrespect that child or the miracle which allowed him to come into your life with such superficial brutal treatment for the whims of sexual opressives. The rights of the child can be protected and no one has a claim to his body. You have the honor to care for him, you do not own him.
By the way- there is a sperm bank in California which refuses to contract with people who would circumcise.
http://www.gayspermbank.com/
love Sarah
