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"It takes 20 seconds"  

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
I teach Bradley now and I have 2 couples in my class. One is expecting a boy and I showed the "How to care for an intact boy" video which got some confersation going. There were honest questions and real dialog - it was nice. The couple expecting the boy is still considering it (hoping to change that very soon!) and they've talked to their OB about it. He says "it only takes 20 seconds." I'm running through the procedure in my head and I can't see how 20 seconds can accomodate clamping the opening so he can cut it without bleeding, cutting the opening to make it bigger, ripping the foreskin from the glands, putting the clamp in place, cutting off circulation, then amputating the skin. I'm guessing his "20 seconds" is for the actual cutting off of the foreskin. Does that sound about right? The doctor told them he uses a cream to help with the pain and that he does let it sit in. Is this something like using Ambesol to have your wisdom tooth pulled? The doctor also told them it's nothing like a video, so don't bother watching one. ??? That last part really bothers me.

The dad is afraid no one else will look like his son. I've told him otherwise and plan to give the "if everyone jumped off a cliff, would you want your son? how important is fitting in if you're willing to have a penile reduction surgery on him?"

The couple having the girl is soaking up the information too, so if they have a son later, I think he'll be intact. =)
post #2 of 22
What a great position of influence you have! I hope that you are able to influence many people to not circumcize!!!
post #3 of 22
"The dad is afraid no one else will look like his son."

His fears are probably right. No one else will look like his son, but isn't that a good thing? His son my have blue eyes and blonde hair. Many other kids will have brown eyes and brown hair. His son may be short and have to wear glasses, while other kids will be tall with perfect vision. The "no one else will look like my child" thing just isn't a good excuse to have a child circumcised. Those are some points you may be able to bring up to the Father.

Marci
SAH-AP-Mommy to Cole Robert (2-26-00)
and Emma Nicole (11-13-01) &
BABY GIRL DUE 9-27-04!!!!!!!!!!!!
post #4 of 22
Hmmm, by any chance does the OB make money off that procedure? How much? And how many 20-second procedures does he do a year? And what kind of car does he drive?

Seriously, I would ask the couple these questions...get them to see that the OB has an interest in promoting an easy, quick (for him) surgery that makes him big bucks.

Then point out that it doesn't matter how long the surgery takes, 20 seconds or 20 hours...their baby will live with the outcome for a lifetime. Whether it's botched or not, the baby will lose 50% of his erogeneous tissue and 80% of the skin system of his penis.

Point out that female circumcisions in Africa take very little time (at least the Type I/Type II that are analogous to male circumcision). A little slice, and it's all over with.

Point out that the circumcision rate is 50% for newborns in this country, and dropping all the time. And that 80% of the world's men are intact. His ds will be in excellent company!
post #5 of 22
The fi9nal act of excising the foreskin probably does only take 20 seconds but there is 5-10 minutes of pure agony that leads up to that point and of course hours of agony beyond the final cut. The cream put on the site is EMLA cream and is about as effective as seat belts on a bicycle. In other words, useless.

This man knows he is lying and misleading these parents and does it with no guilt. He is nothing more than a genital terrorist of infant males.




Frank
post #6 of 22
EMLA is not sufficent and if you would like a way to effectivly demonstrate that to this couple- I think that the Tadio study which shows that kids circumcised with EMLA were still reelling with wacked out pain perceptions six months LATER is evidence that the surgery is not something to shrug off.

http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/taddio2/

Also, if this Doctor thinks that "his" circumcisions are nothing like the video... maybe he should make a video to demonstrate. Maybe he should encourage these parents to come watch one. Telling people to not bother watching a video is contrary to concepts of informed consent... a video of the procedure is supposed to be made available to any patient undergoing a procedure if they request it before signing a consent form.

Good for you for trying, I hope they have enough time to come around.

Love Sarah
post #7 of 22
Hi,

I can only second the other opinions. I think the most iomportant advise is one I have given before. Please tell this couple to go and watch a circumcision! If this OB thinks that it only takes 20 seconds, go in there and see how long it takes and how the baby reacts.

That's all

Lise Brit

Christian and Sebastian's mor
post #8 of 22
I've just been thinking about this. If a doctor said he could cut off the labia of a baby girl and would use a cream to help with the pain and that it would only take about 20 seconds, the vast majority would reel with shock and disbelief. Why don't they do the same for the same thing for baby boys?




Frank
post #9 of 22
I agree with everyone else...
A) would it be OK to do this to a girl?
B) if the doctor says they shouldn't bother with watching a video, perhaps he'd be happy about this couple standing in on a couple of live circumcisions....
Hey...nothing to fear, right?
Painless, and only 20 seconds, and it'll put the couple at ease, right?
So this questioning couple needs to just see that there's "nothing to it" with their own two eyes...and then they'll know it's not something to fear.
If the doctor has nothing to hide, he'll be very happy about such an arrangement.
I mean, do hair stylists and barbers have a problem with "questioning parents" of children needing haircuts sitting in on other haircutting sessions?
No. Because there's nothing to hide.
So, if circumcision isn't a big deal, the doc should be happy to give questioning parents a front row seat to a couple of others before it's done to their own child...
Right?
post #10 of 22

ITA with the previous poster (Kellyb)

I'm ashamed to admit that I used to assist with circumcisions, and I assure you that they take a lot longer than 20 seconds. And EMLA is not adaquate...it only numbs the skin superficially, and does NOTHING for the pain of tearing the foreskin from the glans.

The couple should watch a video and/or witness a few circs firsthand.

If the doctor has nothing to hide, and isn't the liar we all know he is, he'll welcome the chance to demonstrate his 20 second painless circ.

Jen
post #11 of 22
My SIL is a nurse and she's seen circumcisions, yeah they take longer than 20 sec., and the baby screams the whole time (unless they pass out). It's kinda silly that the Dr. says it's nothing like the video - how is it different? He uses the same procedures, so it's the same. Silly (evil) doctor!

And why do doctors always try and convince the parents that it's okay and it's no biggie? If the parents are thinking about not doing it, the doc should say, Great, don't do it! Instead, they start coming up with excuses like, it doesn't hurt, it's quick, blah, blah. I can't belive they want to make an extra $100 that badly!!!! :
post #12 of 22
Thread Starter 
Thank you. I'm glad to know I'm not insane. The Cirp article about pain conditioning was very interesting. =)

The dad is afraid he'll get light headed at the birth; I can't see him holding out for this procedure. I think they just need some time to think about it with all the information. I still have very high hopes for their little one.

Maybe the doc should buy a new watch. 20 seconds my foot. =)
post #13 of 22
You should show a circ video in your class. Although there is only one couple having a boy this time at least some of them will probably have another child.

I took the Bradley class and we discucced circ but didn't see any videos. I strongly feel that showing a circ video to expectant moms would change a lot of minds and maybe even make them more vocal to their friends. Seeing the video is what shoved me over the non-circing edge, makes me feel guilty for ever questioning it and makes me ask my expectant aquaintencesand friends about their plans.
post #14 of 22
Show them one of those awful circumcison videos all the Bradley instructors show.

And, if you all are in California, he'll 'look different' from most of the kids only if he's not intact.

Duh, Dad.

But of course, there will be another rationalization to replace that one.
post #15 of 22
Thread Starter 
I'm afraid to do show a video at this point because the father is genuinly afraid of fainting at the birth and I think this would be *way* too graphic for him. (I let them take the video of medicated births home so that he could be in a "safer" place to see it - and they didn't watch the whole thing, it was too much.) But, if they still decide to have it done (and I really don't think it'll be an issue), I will show a video of a circ. If he insists on concenting to it, he will see it first.

I told him that no matter what, in the lockerroom, his son will see other boys who will look different and will ask. If he's cut, then dad will have to explain that they had a doctor remove part of his genitals and other boys have all their parts; if he's intact, then they can say he's just perfect. Hopefully, that made sense to him.

My main questions was reguarding the "20 seconds" their doctor mentioned. I couldn't figure out what he could possibly have meant by this. If there was a part that was really that quick (my guess being the actual amputation) or if he was flat out lying. This OB acts as back up for a highly respected Midwife in the area and is quite natural-birth friendly... I'm just a bit confused.
post #16 of 22
I know I won't be popular here but I circ'd my son. I do not know how the doc did it so fast from what I'm reading here. I was asked if I wanted him circ'd and I said yes and they had me sign something. I sat there watching the clock waiting for them to return with Brandon, Amanda was in NICU so I had no baby with me.

Just over 5 minutes after they left with him they came back and he wasn't crying not even red like I thought he would be from crying. It was done and he had the vasiline and guaze on his penis and a diaper on and swaddled. I thought it would have taken longer and they said no it's a fast procedure.
post #17 of 22
I would definately show a circ video as part of education,and would recommend parents observe atleast 2 live circs.

Regardless of how long it takes or how the infant/child reacts it is still genital mutilation of a normal healthy child,and that is what people seem to be ignoring at all cost through various rationalizations.

Tell the father that even if circed a child will still vary from father and peers.They will all be damaged,but that damage will vary as youcan see by the photos/destrictions at NOHARMM.Far better to have a normal functioning intact penis than a mutilated one.
post #18 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by besttwins
Just over 5 minutes after they left with him they came back and he wasn't crying not even red like I thought he would be from crying. It was done and he had the vasiline and guaze on his penis and a diaper on and swaddled. I thought it would have taken longer and they said no it's a fast procedure.
Pardon me if I sound skeptical. Five minutes would be barely enough time to take him, prep him and get him back. It's obvious that you son got no pain relief at all even if you are off a little with your timing. The lack of crying and not being red is an indicator that your son was in shock from the pain of the procedure. For a child to be properly prepped for the procedure should take at a minimum 20 minutes and that is minimal for minimum pain relief. Actually, for it to be done in an ethical manner, the child should be gone 35-40 minutes according to the AMA.



Frank
post #19 of 22
Melissa, I don't think you should protect the father-to-be. He has no plans to protect his son and what his son will go through will be far worse than a queasy stomach for him. I wouldn't even warn him of what's coming. His child will recieve no warning.




Frank
post #20 of 22
Melissa,

I agree with Frank. Just tell him you are going to show him a circ video and that is it.

Who cares if he gets queasy or faints?

I am glad you are using your position to spread the word. My bradley teacher never mentioned circ or vaccines. I wish she had.

It is funny how people rationalize circs.

Would you be calm or laughing after they caught off your clitoris without pain medication? Me think NOT!!

Keep us posted.
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