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OMG!!! Is this for real? - Page 2

post #21 of 33
9/27/04 at 3:22am
Amy:

I got my information from Jewish sites. It's been some time back and I'm not sure which one. I suspect that it was ACT Today but not sure.

I am well aware that the Gomco is not used in ritual circumcisions as well as the plasitbell device. The only typical circumcision device I know of being used in ritual circumcisions is the Mogen Shield and some Jewish groups believe even that is inappropriate.





Frank
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post #22 of 33
9/27/04 at 11:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankly Speaking
Amy:

I got my information from Jewish sites. It's been some time back and I'm not sure which one. I suspect that it was ACT Today but not sure.

I am well aware that the Gomco is not used in ritual circumcisions as well as the plasitbell device. The only typical circumcision device I know of being used in ritual circumcisions is the Mogen Shield and some Jewish groups believe even that is inappropriate.





Frank


Frank, there is no information about massive bloodletting on their site. Nor would there be any.

I cannot let your statement stand unanswered about "getting it from a Jewish site" because it leaves misinformation unanswered. Because there is no massive bloodletting in a traditional bris milah. And that is why the subject of the thread exists ... because very often in a traditional bris milah with a traditional mohel ... where no clamps of any kind, no shields of any kind are used ... there is also very often no bleeding.






Am appreciative of honest 'intactivism' against routine infant circumcision. And am not appreciative of misinformation about bris milah.
post #23 of 33
9/27/04 at 1:07pm
Amy, nowhere did I say there was "massive bloodletting." However, there is blood. This is a blood ritual and the blood is a necessary part of the ritual. When a circumcised man converts to Judiasm, the letting of at least a drop of blood from his penis is a necessary part of the coversion process in most cases. The blood is also necessary for the infant ritual.

I am not conducting a campaign of misinformation nor am I castigating Jews for the rite of bris milah. However, I do think it important to warn parents of Jews who are behaving badly and are putting their child at risk of dangerous and lifelong infections. Using the glass tube for this part of the ritual may not be in absolute adherence of traditional methods but it protects the child. That is the whole point. To continue to do it with direct contact by mouth is dangerous and irresponsible. It is also important to note that mohels can not get malpractice liability insurance to cover such occurances as this so if they are going to continue with this known risky practice, they should take every possible step to insure the safety of the child. To not do so is simply irresponsible. I doubt any mohel has the personal financial wherewithal to even remotely compensate these children for what they have caused.




Frank
post #24 of 33
9/27/04 at 4:44pm
The End.











edited to add ... Frank, you absolutely did discuss massive bloodletting. In this post, as follows:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankly Speaking
[i
NOt to start an argument but the reason for the sucking is to colapse the blood vessels to stop the bleeding ... The colapsing of the blood vessels works much the same way as the Gomco clamp. The vessels colapse down blocking the flow of the blood instead of being crushed down as with the Gomco. I suspect this is why the mohels are so insistent on continuing this part of the ritual. They know that it works and if they don't, some of the babies could bleed to death. It only takes about 2 tablespoons of blood loss for a baby's organs to start shutting down ...[/i]
post #25 of 33
9/28/04 at 2:05am
Moving this to Religious Studies since religious circ isn't discussed in this forum...
post #26 of 33
9/30/04 at 8:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by merpk
This practice dates back thousands of years, and was instituted and was actually mandated to try to aid healing of the wound.
But now we see that there are far more negative results - diseases transmitted to the baby - and therefore this practice shouldbe re-evaluated and more informed choices need to be made imo.
post #27 of 33
9/30/04 at 3:44pm
Raven, that's why today most mohelim use a glass tube.
post #28 of 33
9/30/04 at 4:18pm
BelovedBird - thank you for letting me know that.

Out of curiosity, are there any Jewish members here chose not to circ? Im curious because I wonder how that affected (or is that effected ) their relationship with their Jewish family members and community members. I guess thats going way off topic though....
post #29 of 33
9/30/04 at 4:57pm
Raven, did you miss the first page of this thread?? Both the use of a tube and a jewish mother who did not circ are mentioned there. And yes, not performing the mitzva of milah on sons and relationship is off topic in this thread, and yes it has been covered elsewhere previously.
post #30 of 33
9/30/04 at 5:10pm
Sorry for going off topic.
post #31 of 33
9/30/04 at 7:34pm
I'll be brief, since I'm both off-topic and out of the no religious discussion bounds.

I'm a Jew, married to a Jew, and we didn't circumcise our son. We have since met others in the same position, which is very heartening. There are support groups, both online and IRL for Jews who choose to leave their sons intact. Until I met the full hostility of my former Jewish community, my family's rage, and the hatred of perfect strangers I didn't understand why support groups were necessary.

There is a ceremony to replace the bris, basically a covenant of peace ceremony, instead of a covenant of cutting. It is a beautiful ceremony designed to name the child and introduce him into the Jewish community without harming his genitals. We chose not to do it, because our families were upset as it was, we didn't want to 'rub their faces in it' which is how the invitations were understood by them.

Feel free to PM or email me with questions, I love to talk about it!

Take care,
post #32 of 33
9/30/04 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zaftigmama
I'll be brief, since I'm both off-topic and out of the no religious discussion bounds.
You are off-topic, but now that the thread has been moved to Religious Studies, you are in the right place for religious aspects of circing!
post #33 of 33
10/3/04 at 10:13am
Andie - thank you for sharing that!