penile block: how effective?

[loving-my-babies]

how effective is the penile block as anesthetic??? is it true babies "don't feel a thing" with a penile block? I know creams don't work but I was wondering if the block actually blocks the pain from the entire penis area...

[kavamamakava]

I don't have an answer, but I'm assuming the penis would still be raw and sore AFTER the circumcision whether any pain were felt during the procedure or not.

[Frankly Speaking]

In a study done by the AMA in 1999 in Chicago, dorsal penile nerve block (DNP) was found to be inadequate for the pain of circumcision. The only method found rto be adequate was subcutaneous ring block. While the ring block was found to be adequate, the results of the study clearly indicated that there was still substantial pain involved with the procedure. As a matter of fact, the researchers ended the study early because it was clear that the subject babies were experiencing extreme pain and the researchers did not consider it humane to continue the study when they already had significant evidence. The study was ended just a little more than half way through.

At the time of the study, 78% of babies were circumcised with no pain relief at all and 96% recieved less than "adequate" pain relief.

In a nutshell, it doesn't matter what type of pain relief and it doesn't matter what any one tells you, infant circumcision is always painful and it is a magnitude of pain that an adult would not tolerate from a doctor. If babies could remember the pain, there would be a lot of dead doctors.

It is also important to realize that the exposed glans can be hyper sensitive for several years as well. I know of a mother of a 4 year old who says her son will not let her get near his penis because of this hypersensitivity. It HURTS him even after 4 years to have it cleaned. The most she can do to clean it is to let him soak in the tub. He won't even touch it himself.



Frank

[loving-my-babies]

Frank.. do you have any links or articles stating this? that would be helpful to show to mamas that say "oh no I would NEVER hurt my child, that's why I used a penile block" YEAH, RIGHT

[Sarah]

I had a lightbulb moment at the dentist last year- I was going to get a filling. My dentist is one of thise "pain free" guys who does a topical before the injection and then leaves you there to stew for 1/2 hour while he does something else. As my face became increasingly numb- my bladder tried to expand to the size of a large cup of coffee. I really wanted to go pee- but I was commited to a reclined dental chair. I began to wonder if I could "only" shift a little of the excess numbing which was making my familiar face feel like mentholated roadkill stuck to my skull... down to my bladder which was aching. I then realized that the way that my face felt at that moment was MUCH MORE uncomfortable than the way that my bladder felt. That the feeling of "numb" is not the absence of pain.. the feeling of NUMB is a FRIGGIN awful feeling to have- in and of itself. I then realised what a total sham this whole idea of anesthesia is... because, yes, it serves a purpose, but as far as negative feelings- it just trades the negative feeling of pain for the negative feeling of the inability to feel your own body.

(is it obvious that I am all for natural childbirth too?)

Love Sarah

[A&A]

You're so right about natural childbirth, Sarah.


And it takes a NEEDLE to get you to "pain-free," if pain-free even exists. The needle is certainly painful, in and of itself.

[StarMama]

Even *if* any of the shots took effect and worked, have you ever had injected anesthesia (other than in your mouth)? It stings and HURTS (for some reason dental novicane doesn't sting to me... perhaps I'm lucky)! I couldn't imagine that in my genitals! I almost cried from the shots when I had norplant put in as a teenager, and that was just in my *arm*!

Nope, just better to leave those little penises alone! (I know I'm preaching to the choir :LOL)

[pdx.mothernurture]

I used to assist...

...sorry to say. :-( And I have never seen one of these mythical, pain-free circumcisions. EMLA seems to numb very superficially. The DPNB might reduce up to 50% of the pain, and the SQRB maybe 75%. (Those are just my personal estimates, based on observations.) But babies still shrieked during the part where the the injections are administered, the foreskin is forcefully separated from the glans, and often during clamping as well. Anesthetic is certainly better than nothing at all, but the truth is, circumcision still hurts. I never once saw a baby sleep through the procedure.

-Jen

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally Posted by loving-my-babies

Frank.. do you have any links or articles stating this? that would be helpful to show to mamas that say "oh no I would NEVER hurt my child, that's why I used a penile block" YEAH, RIGHT

Just go to www.cirp.org and type "pain" in the search block. You will find tons of information about circumcision pain. The article I was refering to was published in JAMA in 1999.




Frank

[boingo82]

Also I've heard the frenulum's nerves are connected differently, and not affected by the block. So if the frenulum is clipped, he feels it anyway.

"They told me there would be no pain... a tremendous flash of blinding white pain surged through my entire body... I thought I had been electrocuted and was dead... The pain was the worst I have ever had... I canot imagine any pain possibly being worse."
From a letter to Rosemary Romberg from a man in Florida, circumcised at age 25 under local anesthesia.

http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/index24.html

That could explain why babies don't move or cry, also. They are trying to figure out if they are still alive.

Gawd this is really getting to me tonight.

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally Posted by A&A

You're so right about natural childbirth, Sarah.


And it takes a NEEDLE to get you to "pain-free," if pain-free even exists. The needle is certainly painful, in and of itself.

The subcutaneous ring block requires 4 separate injections of lidocaine. Lidocaine is an acid and stings like a bee sting. Imagine getting stung 4 times on your genitals and you will have an idea of the pain just to be "painless." Just think of the screaming and crying of a 3 or 4 year old when they get stung by a bee or wasp. I can remember that pain and I can tell you, it hurt me far, far more then than it does as an adult. Last year I mowed across a yellow jacket nest and was stung twice. When I felt the stings, I ran a few feet away and brushed them off of my pants leg, rubbed my leg for a couple of minutes and went ahead with my mowing, mowing around the nest. When I was a child, the pain would have been so intense that I would have run screaming into the house like something was trying to kill me. That pain made such an impression on me that to this day, I can remember exactly when and where it happened, what I did and how my mother reacted. I remember clearly how my hand was so swollen that I couldn't close it. Far different than my episode in the yard last year.

This is the same kind of pain a child experiences getting 4 injections of lidocaine for a "painless" procedure. Truthfully and in reality, there just isn't any such thing.




Frank

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally Posted by boingo82

Also I've heard the frenulum's nerves are connected differently, and not affected by the block. So if the frenulum is clipped, he feels it anyway.

I haven't heard that but the frenulum has it's very own dedicated nerve that connects directly to the brain and it's own dedicated blood supply so it could be possible.




Frank

[boingo82]

Originally Posted by Frankly Speaking

I haven't heard that but the frenulum has it's very own dedicated nerve that connects directly to the brain and it's own dedicated blood supply so it could be possible.
Frank

That's what I meant. So they can numb the rest of the penis and miss the most sensitive part entirely.

[~Megan~]

I don't think it matters whether or not it hurts; it is still wrong to cut off part of a child's body for a cosmetic reason.

[StarMama]

Very true Megan, but I bet a lot of people don't think that its wrong to do so, but might not do it if they knew it hurt so badly... getting people to stop for ANY reason is still getting them to stop, yk??

I do totally agree with you though, even if it didn't hurt one iota during or after it would still totally and completely be *wrong* to circ.

[Acksiom]

And I just want to point out that I don't think whatever amount of anesthesia I may have received as a child during my prepucectomy has had any meaningful effect on the pain I feel now as an adult because of what was done to me and what I've lost for life.

I know this point is only adjacent to the inquiry at hand and doesn't address it directly, but I also think it does have some relevance and that people who want to be informed deserve to hear about it and include it in their considerations. Because the pain I feel now, and that little boys at risk now may likewise feel when they grow up, can't really be lessened by surgical anesthesia.

[loving-my-babies]

exactly, actually in a circ debate I was part of, all the moms were pro-circ but said "we don't support it without pain relief" .. if they only knew..

[Nathan1097]

Originally Posted by Frankly Speaking

I haven't heard that but the frenulum has it's very own dedicated nerve that connects directly to the brain and it's own dedicated blood supply so it could be possible.




Frank

It does? Cool.

[Frankly Speaking]

Yep, the frenular nerve and the frenular artery. Both dedicated to serve only the frenular region.




Frank

[Mommiska]

Originally Posted by Frankly Speaking

Yep, the frenular nerve and the frenular artery. Both dedicated to serve only the frenular region.




Frank

Wow. And people try to deny that circumcision doesn't damage a male's sexual response/sensations.

Do you have a link where I could find out more, Frank?