C-Section Vent - Page 3

[Peppamint]

Originally Posted by stafl

uh... I'd like to see some real evidence of this. As far as I know, the above statement is totally not true! The "elevated risks" of pregnancy, labor and delivery after a cesarean are scare tactics invented by doctors who don't want women to vbac.

Endometriosis is most likely an auto-immune response to environmental toxins. Nobody really knows for sure.
But, I will concede that many women with endo only find out about it after having a c-section, when adhesions form and cause intense pain. the cesarean didn't cause their endo, just made it more painful.

So you don't think the part about fifficulty conceiving and miscarriages after a c/s is true? I remember hearing that before, but never checked into it...

[stafl]

Originally Posted by busybusymomma

So you don't think the part about fifficulty conceiving and miscarriages after a c/s is true? I remember hearing that before, but never checked into it...

it wasn't true for me. I actually got pregnant easier after having carried one baby (nearly) to term. when I went info-gathering in preparation for my vbac, most of the studies I found had some major flaws in their reasoning and/or data collection, and I just couldn't believe hardly any of them, on both sides of the issue(s).

Has anyone checked at pubmed.com or medscape.com lately? There very well may be more recent studies that I am not aware of.

[party_of_seven]

Disclaimer:Hold off on the flames until you hear me out!

You know, women shouldn't HAVE to educate themselves about this stuff. The doctors are the ones who deal with pregnant women and delivery day in and day out. They are supposedly the experts aren't they?? The DOCTORS should be doing what's right. THEY should be telling women that c-sections can be harmful to moms and babies. THEY should be telling women that medications and interventions can and WILL cause problems. THEY should be telling women that EFM doesn't solve a thing. THEY should be telling women that their pelvises are just fine..."sure you can birth a 9 or 10lber!". THEY should be telling moms to get up off their backs to push that baby out.

What the hell is the point of going to and "expert" like an OB if you have to educate yourself and DEFEND yourself from their "well meaning" pratices?????????

People shouldn't have to defend themselves from doctors.

You know, I really hope that more OBs keep doing c-sections. Pretty soon women will get wise and see that if you go to an OB that's what you get. The women who want vaginal births will go to birth centers or birth at home. At least at that point, OBs will no longer be wolves in sheep's clothing....everyone will see them for the wolves they are.



My heart breaks for moms who have desired a natural birth and ended up with a c-section. It is certainly not their fault for not educating themselves! It is the "system's" fault. It is incredibly unfortunate that it is necessary for women HAVE to educate themselves in order to protect themselves from the very people who should be helping.

[Breathless Wonder]

[mollyeilis]

party_of_six, I agree.

Stafl, the only thing I ever hear birth practicioners being worried about is rupture (and that's the only one I didn't spell out in my reply b/c I believe that the risk with a healthy, un-messed-with, non-interventive labor is so tiny). They don't talk about the other things. I *certainly* wasn't told of all the other things while slowly consenting to the surgery. If someone had sat me down and told me about all the problems that happen during and after c-section there's no way I would have said "yes" unless/until it was completely clear there was no other way for real, physical reasons (not just being surrounded by people with other things to do and little faith I'd finish in any short amount of time).

I trust the women of ICAN, and women smarter than I am have shown the abstracts of studies showing placenta acreta, percreta, and even previa being higher post-cesarian than with women with no uterine scars. They have posted abstracts of studies showing higher rates of difficulty in conceiving, in miscarriage, and in stillbirth. And they have discussed cases of the endometrium migrating through the scar and into the abdominal cavity; that can't happen unless there's a scar on your uterus.

The things that I mentioned are things that affect the woman and her future family (as well as the current family). Since the birth culture today doesn't seem to care much about that, they aren't discussed. The only thing that doctors (and my midwives as well as others) seem to care about post-c-sectoin is rupture, and THOSE STUDIES are most definitely flawed.

stafl, I think you and I are on the same side of these issues. I want the problems with c-section discussed prior to giving consent...of those problems, rupture is the smallest worry in my mind (my neighbor's basically reasonable OB gave her these stats...1/100 chance of rupture now, 1/100 of irreversible damage to baby IF there's a rupture...even though I think he's still overstating at least the rupture rate, those are stats I can certainly live with).


Navessa, thank you.

[nurnur4evr]

Sitara (that is such a pretty name!), I was really moved reading your poignant story. You must have felt terribly betrayed.

When I got to the part about the doctor, I was somewhat stunned because, overall, he sounds like a really decent person who feels terrible and knows how badly he f***ed things up since he is losing sleep over it! It is very poignant that he asked for your forgiveness. It's poignant that he was comforting his daughter when he missed your call.

I was a Lamaze instructor (!) who ended up with a cesarean after a long labor. It was hard to accept, but gradually, in stages, I reconciled myself with the experience and came to be at peace with it. In 2001, three years after the cesarean, I met Ina May Gaskin at a midwifery conference and told her my story. When she confirmed to me that my labor was probably in the tiny percent of necessary cesareans, it was as though I had received her "blessing" for having had the surgery. Of course, I had largely healed physically and emotionally and had gone back to teaching by that point, but still, just hearing it from her was like the final step in moving forward.

Keep in mind that you are comparing what actually happened with your idea of what might have happened - we don't really know what might have been. All we have is the reality of right now. (One thing is for sure, you would have had a very tired doctor attempting your vaginal breech delivery! That's not always such a great thing.)

Thank you for sharing your story here. I will be thinking about you and sending you warm wishes for healing.

[Crystal_clear]

stafl, I only have one abstract handy that addresses the higher stillbirth rate. The study was released this summer, and it was posted on OB-GYN-L:

Author: Smith, Gordon C. S.; Pell, Jill P.; Dobbie, Richard Institution Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Cambridge University, Cambridge, U.K.; the Department of Public Health, Greater Glasgow NHS Board, Glasgow, U.K.; and the Information and Statistics Division, Common Services Agency, Edinburgh, U.K.

Title: Cesarean Section and Risk of Unexplained Stillbirth in Subsequent Pregnancy.[Miscellaneous]

Source: Obstetrical & Gynecological Survey. 59(6):413-415, June 2004.

Abstract: Apart from the risk of uterine rupture at vaginal delivery after a previous cesarean birth, placental complications, including abruption and placenta previa, reportedly are more common in these women. This large-scale retrospective cohort study sought to determine whether cesarean delivery of a first infant correlates with a higher risk of antepartum stillbirth in the second pregnancy. The study population included all second births in Scotland in the years 1992-1998. In surveying 120,633 singleton second births, there were 68 antepartum stillbirths among 17,754 women who previously had a cesarean delivery. The incidence was 2.39 per 10,000 women per week. In 102,879 women who previously delivered vaginally, the corresponding figure was 1.44. The excessive risk of unexplained stillbirth in women with a previous cesarean delivery was apparent from 34 weeks gestational age (hazard ratio, 2.23; 95% confidence interval [CI], 1.48-3.36). Controlling for maternal characteristics and the outcome of first pregnancies did not substantially alter the risk (hazard ratio, 2.74; 95% CI, 1.74-4.30). The absolute risk of unexplained stillbirth at or after 39 weeks gestation was 1.1 per 1000 women having a previous cesarean delivery and 0.5 per 1000 in those who had not. The chief determinant of the excess of stillbirths in women with a previous cesarean delivery was unexplained stillbirth. The increased risk was not limited to deliveries at or after 41 weeks gestation. The findings were unchanged when only women delivering at term in their first pregnancy were analyzed. For unexplained stillbirths at or after 34 weeks gestation, median birth weight in women having a previous cesarean delivery was less than in those whose first deliveries were vaginal. These associations were confirmed on multivariate analysis. Women having cesarean delivery are more likely than those delivering vaginally to have an antepartum stillbirth in their second pregnancy. The major reason is an excess of unexplained stillbirths. Possibly ligating major uterine vessels affects uterine blood flow in later pregnancies. Another possible explanation is abnormal placentation secondary to the uterine scar.

[azyre]

Originally Posted by mollyeilis

navessa, I knew that what was being done to me was wrong, unneeded, unnecessary, and horrible WHILE it was being done. I was fighting tooth and nail to not go to the hospital and to not have the surgery; I was starting to mourn even as I was slowly giving in out of mental and physical exhaustion (physically tired from the fight, not from the labor).

And yet every time I have a new revelation about just HOW unnecessary the surgery was, I become raw again. I cry, I rage, and feel so impotent b/c I can't go back and have that full knowledge at the time. It's scary to touch those thoughts, even for people who knew that they were out there.

I can really relate to this Molly. The fight during labour, the pain of having "given in", the pain that it happened which is seperate from any and all circumstances. I have a lot of knowledge, knowledge from experience not books now. I know what I was fighting now, and I was right, just didn't have all I needed to do it well enough THAT TIME. I thought if you didn't agree with your caregiver you said so and that was it more or less. I know what in myself needs to be addresssed.

I am glad for individuals when they don't take exception with what I think is crappy stuff, because I don't wish pain and regret on them. But I am sad for us as a whole. That we are happy to be shortchanged and led up the garden path, that it continues the crappy birth culture, that women are not experiencing birth empowered. I think that is my biggest sadness - I hate how we give away our power and we are expected to, and when we don't, the people we are meant to give it to fight us tooth and nail for it.

[azyre]

Originally Posted by Sitara

Yes, there are alot of women who don't care how they deliver their child.

I had a c-section on september 3rd.
I am devastated over this.

The only people who have given me support over it are the midwives we were planning on birthing with, my partner, and a women I met online yesterday.

everyone, and i mean EVERYONE else "well at least you have a healthy baby" " just think you could have died" "well at least your *privates* are still in tact"

I will never understand the lack of support I have recieved from my devastation over my c-section. It ticks me off more than I can express, infact, I have stopped talking about my loss in public to family and friends, due to their lack of support.

I educated myself, my partner paid a couple thosand dollars so we could birth at a birthing center in our town. We found the perfect midwives, the perfect place, I had it all. And then we discovered she was breech. They legally aren't allowed to deliver breech babies. So they found me a doctor in my county who delivers them vaginally. He promised he would meet me at the hospital when he was paged. He never did. No other doctor at the hospital would deliver her naturally. And there I was, at the one place i never wanted to birth at, without the doctor who said he would be there, 10 cm dialated, her feet coming out, getting wheeled into the operation room for a ceasarian.

all i can think is why me? why when there are so many women out there who could care less how their babies are delivered into the world. Why my daughter, when I had it all planned out. Come to find, its me and my body that wouldn't allow her to flip from breech, i have a bicorniate uterus. Its all my fault. Why didn't i just get up and run to a room, shut the door and lock it and deliver her myself? I know I could have. I made it through the labor fine, so many what ifs.....and no answers.

So i sit here, with an incision on my abdomen now forever, adding me to the 30% or so of women who have c-sections these days. Just another statistic.

Someone who other women now think that I opted for this. Because I don't have the secuirty to speak about my experience in public due to the lack of support. I just tell them, I had a c-section. And then talk about my beautiful daughter.

Sitara, I am part of a support group for recovering from a traumatic birth. We are based over here in Australia but are mostly online. PM me if you'd like details. Anyone else too!

I want to send you lots of love and understanding. It is totally RIGHT to be mad and sad at what happened. A lot of people won't understand, but the ones that do can be a great comfort.

After my unwanted unecessaary c-section the couple who came into the hospital room afterwards spent the morning on the phone ringing up people and sharing the news. The father was complaining over and over how they'd not got her the epidural in time and she had to labour without pain relief. I wanted to F&*(ing kill them, no jokes. There I was physically broken, gutted. She had what I wanted with my whole heart and the silly stupid woman didnt even realise what a blessing it was. I feel like crying now thinking on it. I'd have swapped her in a heartbeat. 18 months later (nearly to the day) I can understand that an unmedicated birth if you are not emotionally prepared, or supported in it could be horrific as well. I hope she was empowered in her birth despite her plans going awry, cause I sure as hell wasn't.

[Fiddlemom]

great thread....Sitara, your story moved me deeply....thank you for posting it here. I might not have had a chance to read it otherwise.

In my mom's group in Seattle a few years ago, over half the women (all college educated professional types) delivered by cesarean. 7 out of 12. And the stories just kept coming and coming after that. It's been my totally non-scientifically backed up observation that it is just this way with women who deliver in the hospital. So, 25 or 30% rate almost seems inaccurate (on the low side). Are there any stats out there? Is it true that the more formal education you have the more likely you are to birth by cesarean?

There's a great book out there called Birth As an American Rite of Passage by Robbie Davis-Floyd, from University of CA press. It's kind of a tome, but an excellent read (a bit too academic for my tastes in places, but great nonetheless). It's loaded with quotes from women about their birth experiences. She does point out the fact that SO many women just don't care how their babies come out, which has been mentioned in this thread.

[eilonwy]

Originally Posted by Fiddlemom

In my mom's group in Seattle a few years ago, over half the women (all college educated professional types) delivered by cesarean. 7 out of 12. And the stories just kept coming and coming after that. It's been my totally non-scientifically backed up observation that it is just this way with women who deliver in the hospital. So, 25 or 30% rate almost seems inaccurate (on the low side). Are there any stats out there? Is it true that the more formal education you have the more likely you are to birth by cesarean?

I'm absolutely fascinated by this. I've seen people post here that teenagers are more likely to be delivered by cesarean, and now you're posting that you think college educated women are more likely to. Which is it?

Of all the people I know who've had babies, including myself, only about a dozen have had cesarean sections. My mom, my sister, my ex-SIL, other relatives and friends... the sections are few and far between. Even when you control for factors such as insurance status and education, there are still very few sections, percentage-wise.

I understand that 21-25% is the national average, but it's certainly not the average around here. You know why? Because women demanded better care and they got it. I've delivered two babies at the same hospital, and I know many many other women who've delivered there. They don't have any semi-private rooms; all of the rooms are private. The tubs are shared between two labor rooms, which are huge; you can have as many people as you want in there. I had my best friend and my husband and my MIL there for most of the day; several more people came in and out (I was there for an awfully long time). Only Mike came with me for my second (cesarean) birth; MIL stayed with BeanBean and my best friend was at work, but was there as soon as I woke up after sleeping off the spinal.

My daughter stayed in my room the entire time, and when she had to go to the nursery for assessments I went with her (except for the first one; Mike went for that). The only qualification was that the first night, because I'd had surgery, Mike had to stay with me to keep BooBah in the room. That wasn't a problem at all, because there was a pull-out chair for him to sleep on; one of the nurses brought him some sheets and a pillow.

It may sound ironic, but my cesarean birth was a healing experience for me. My first delivery was vaginal and horribly traumatic, and there's very little support out there for people who've had traumatic vaginal deliveries. Everyone assumes that it could have been worse, and the surgery would have been worse. I knew that my son should have been delivered by cesarean section and that it would have been better for both of us; after my daughter was born I was positive. (*Note: I have come to terms with my son's delivery. I believe that there is a reason for everything, and I learned the reason for my son's delivery about a month after it happened. Even so, I believe that the cesarean would have been better for us from a physical and mental health standpoint.)

The hospital I delivered at was built with input from women who had delivered on the main hospital's maternity floor, and with input from birth educators, lactation consultants, etc. Why? Because some stood up and said "Hey, this isn't right!" and the hospital's directors listened, and they answered. Rather than coming here and posting about how awful hospitals are, why don't you do something about it in real life? Start a grass roots movement for maternity care reform. If enough women stand up for what they believe in, and speak about what they want, the hospital will respond. It's a business, after all, and businesses want to keep their customers happy. Do something, don't just sit here and whimper about how awful hospitals are, and how you wouldn't have a baby there unless you were half an inch from the grave (or not even then). Bring the studies, talk to women, get a group together and start something. Make a difference. Don't come here and whine about women who don't know any better-- inform people, and let your local hospital know that abysmally low standards will not be tolerated.

[navessa]

Excellent post Party of 6! If only drs paid more attention to their hypocratic oath, "To FIRST, do NO harm." I think part of their problem is that they are getting to big for their britches. They think dr = god.

Azyre wrote:

I think that is my biggest sadness - I hate how we give away our power and we are expected to, and when we don't, the people we are meant to give it to fight us tooth and nail for it.

Very well put!

Eilonwy, I am really sorry about your traumatic vaginal birth. I truly am. It shouldn't have to be that way. Glad your next birth was healing.
What is wrong with the posters coming here to vent? I don't see anything bad about it. Sometimes, it is nice to share with other like-minded people. If venting helps get our thoughts and voices together, we can also use that information to strengthen our cause. And sometimes it just feels good to get the bad stuff out.
I am sure there are probably quite a few women out there who ARE trying to do something about it. The fact that they are posting here does not mean they are just "sitting there" doing nothing.
I am trying not to be stand-offish but I really do not see why "whining" here is a bad thing. There were quite a few women who told of their traumatic story, they obviously needed to get that out (whether or not how many times they have told it, that's not the point). Hopefully the cyber hugs and kind words those women received reached their soul and helped (even just a little).

[Peppamint]

I guess we're really pissing Eilonwy off, aren't we? What have YOU done? I see you said "they" so I'm wondering what part you played?

Last I knew, there's a journey. You scream about it, you moan about it and at some point you decide to do something about it. I am not anywhere near the point of being able to deal with a hospital and the red tape and sh!t they pour out. I spent two years trying to get my birth paid for (I had 100% insurance but somehow between the hospital billing dept and the insurance there was a problem and the $5,000+ bill was never resolved). I am not the person qualified to do anything about it and I guess because of that I'm not allowed to bemoan the state of hospital in which women birth. I am doing my part to change things for women in other ways though.

I guess it's just not PC to be sad about the state of things, at least not on MDC. You're supposed to keep your mouth shut until you've saved the world.

BTW- in my group of six friends, of the births at the local hospital (I'm not counting my second birth, a HB of course) we had 5 natural births, 3 epidural births, 1 narcotic birth and 2 c/s births. I believe that translates to an 18% c/s rate and a 64% medicated birth rate just in my playgroup.

I just met some moms recently and of six moms, only two of us were satisfied with our births... my second birth (a HB) and another mom's first and only so far birth, she had a natural hospital birth with a doula. Not good statistics and from some things I have heard this hospital could be considered progressive because they are BF friendly and offer tiny bathtub size tubs for laboring, but not birthing. This is a hospital that has a lower than national average c/s rate and there's several active doulas in that town.

[eilonwy]

There's no need for name calling and personal attacks.

My point is this: I see a lot of people come here and complain about how other women "don't give a hoot" about birth. I see a lot of women passing judgement on mother's who've had cesareans (planned or otherwise) or who've had epidurals. I see comments about how doctors are evil and the medical establishment has taken over birth and it just shouldn't be that way. What I don't see is a plan of action. I don't hear anyone talking to these women, I hear them talking at or about them. That's not constructive, it doesn't help anyone and certainly won't change the system.

What have I done? I have personally encouraged women to seek care outside of the medical model. I have supported women who did not have the births they wanted, and helped them explore the reasons for it. I have been there when they were ready to talk, and have listened without passing judgement. In truth, I've done a lot of it because I feel that I didn't get the support I needed after my son was born. I got a lot of comments along the lines of "well, you didn't have a c-section so it couldn't have been as bad as all that" and lots of people telling me what went wrong even though they didn't know the full story ("it was so long because you were forced to lie on your back the whole time/pushed in the lithotomy position/etc"). I had people pass judgement on me for planning to have an epidural with my second delivery because the first was so traumatic, and even had someone tell me that I couldn't love my baby as much as she loved hers, because if I did I'd have a homebirth.

I, personally, talked my SIL out of planning an epidural with her first baby just by encouraging her to keep an open mind and to do a bit of research. She's planning a midwife attended birth center birth now, because instead of talking down to her and pretending that her fears weren't valid, I listened to her and encouraged her to think for herself. She had never heard of unassisted birth before we talked, and thought that homebirthing was a crazy idea. She never questioned vaccinating her children, and it never occured to her that it was reasonable to breastfeed for more than a few months. Just by listening and encouraging her and setting a quiet example, I've changed her mind on lots of issues. She may turn out to be crunchier than I am. If I had blown off her fears or just come here to "vent" about it, nothing positive would have come of it.

When you pass judgement on people, you don't help your cause. All you do is alienate them. If you're frustrated that the intervention rate is so high in your area, why don't you try listening and talking to other mothers to find out what they think about it? You might be surprised to find out that they are thinking, feeling human beings who just need the right person to talk to to work things out.

The system can be changed, but yelling at it won't help.

[Scarlett Mother]

Way to go you! I'm all for talking to women about different ways to give birth. I think I said in an earlier post that I recommend two or three pregnancy and birth books I love to anyone I find out is pregnant. The earlier the better, 'cause they have time to digest a lot of information before making any decisions. That said, I don't think you should get mad at people who come here to vent. You explained a lot in your e-mail by giving examples of inappropriate comments people have made to you (reasons your birth took so long, vaginal birth is always way better than cesarean birth, etc.). We have only all experienced our own births, we don't know how everyone else feels about their births. We don't know if the mother was traumatized or happy. We don't know the facts surrounding her birth. We can't always trust what the doctors say. Maybe the doctors are wrong and her pelvis was big enough to birth her nine pound baby (it's happened before). But maybe she needs to believe that is true to be okay with her cesarean birth. Maybe she doesn't need people criticizing that. Or maybe she believes it was unnecessary and wants to vent to someone. Or maybe her pelvis really was too small. Do you see what I'm getting at here? There are a thousand ways to say the wrong thing, so if you're me you don't say anything at all once the birth is done, you just feel like the obstetric system is on the wrong path and taking a lot of unsuspecting women with it. I had a homebirth in large part because I knew that if I ended up with a cesarean birth I could be sure that it was necessary for my health or my child's or both. I just feel sad that in the hospital people can't be sure of that. My wish is that every mother is happy with her birth.

[Peppamint]

I would like you to point out where name calling happened and I will be happy to report it to a moderator. :

[eilonwy]

Originally Posted by busybusymomma

I guess we're really pissing Eilonwy off, aren't we? What have YOU done? I see you said "they" so I'm wondering what part you played?
...
I guess it's just not PC to be sad about the state of things, at least not on MDC. You're supposed to keep your mouth shut until you've saved the world.

This is a personal attack. These frequently degenerate into name calling, so I was heading it off.

[Peppamint]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

This is a personal attack. These frequently degenerate into name calling, so I was heading it off.

Well, we'll just have to beg to differ. And I appreciate you assuming the worst- that I would start name calling. I've been on MDC for over two years and don't believe I've ever been accused of name calling. The tone of your post (#55) caught me off guard. I had forgotton that if we are disappointed in the world around us that it makes us ungrateful, judgmental bitches. Thanks for reminding me. Now I know why I love MDC so much.

PS- so glad that your hospital is willing to listen to you. I wish we were all so lucky!

[Angierae]

elionwy, I think you misunderstood me...

"Why is it acceptable to assume that anyone who doesn't choose and succeed at a homebirth "doesn't give a hoot" how their baby is born?"

??? I never said anything about homebirth. In fact, I think the hospital is the appropriate place for many people.

"I'm sorry, but your attitude here is not the attitude of someone who wants to help, support or educate her friends. It's a holier-than-thou attitude which prevents many women from seeking the support and education they need to own and accept their birth experiences."

All of the women I originally posted about are my friends and are wonderful caring women. I have tried to educate them and share my good and bad expreiences with them and provide them with information. They chose to not hear me. I don't think its their fault. It is the norm for society. That is what frustrates me now as I am supporting them through the aftermath. That our society in general supports and expects women to blindly listen to their Dr's and not ask questions. Maybe society doesn't "give a hoot".



"I'm sorry, but I can't see how you're hoping for something positive here. You seem to have a set of beliefs all laid out in your mind, and you don't have any input from the mothers at all. Of course a healthy baby isn't the only thing that matters, but how are you contributing to healing the mothers by posting your "c-section vent"?"

I do have input from the mothers. I am close with them. They have so many emotions they can't express. I came here to vent my anger that they were put in this situation (by themselves, the dr's, society, the status quo?) in the first place. And I hate that they get the message grieving is inappropriate b/c "the baby is fine." A traumatic birth experience can be a real loss for many people.

FWIW I have my own birth trauma I will always carry with me and it plagues me that it is accepted as the norm.

Since my original post another friend has had a c/s birth. Hers was a beautiful lifesaving miracle that I am amazingly greatful for. I only wish c/s was reserved for cases when the threat is real--such as hers.

To all of you mamas with your birth baggage... And thank you for listening.

[Sitara]

Originally Posted by party_of_six

Disclaimer:Hold off on the flames until you hear me out!
You know, I really hope that more OBs keep doing c-sections. Pretty soon women will get wise and see that if you go to an OB that's what you get. The women who want vaginal births will go to birth centers or birth at home. At least at that point, OBs will no longer be wolves in sheep's clothing....everyone will see them for the wolves they are.



My heart breaks for moms who have desired a natural birth and ended up with a c-section. It is certainly not their fault for not educating themselves! It is the "system's" fault. It is incredibly unfortunate that it is necessary for women HAVE to educate themselves in order to protect themselves from the very people who should be helping.

I went to a birthing center. What happens when they won't help you anymore because of the position of your baby? What happens when you DO educate yourself , labor fully and the doctor who's supposed to deliver your daughter vaginally doesn't show? I educated myself, I paid for the birthing center, I saw the midwives for my entire pregnancy... not everyone who has a c-section unwillingly was uneducated and didn't go to a birthing center. I didn't see an OB, I didn't plan a hospital birth, eveyrthing changed in 7 days.