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How could a Christian vote Democrat? - Page 3

post #41 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stayseeliz
Jesus also states in John that He and the Father are one..I can't remember the verse off the top of my head..

That's how I get that Jesus inspired Psalms..

John chapter 1: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
post #42 of 63
http://www.christiandemocrats.org/ (found in search engine- hoenstly know nothing about this site- just looked interesting enough to share)

Personally, even when I was a very very right wing Christian I thought of the world in a more democratic lens. I believe that we can take ONE or perhaps TWO scriptures that ALLUDE to the abortion issue and make it doctrine. But I really believe you can't take one or two scriptures, isolate them, and use them as doctrine. I mean- i could assume God had completely abandoned us based on PSalm 10:1, 13:1, 60:1 but we simply can't take a few scriptures and use them alone as fact or we would be forever contradicting ourselves. The bible is (imo) meant to be read in entirety and doctrine gleamed from a balance of careful study. It is an entirely different thread, but there is a VERY valid pro-choice argument from the bible.

IMO, to look at the candidates from a Christian eye view one would have to look at a balance of the entire scriptures. The bible says to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and shelter the homeless. Which are definately more democratic historically. The NT says to turn the other cheek, and return evil to evil to know one. Which isn't a very pro-war stance. IMO the most biblical souls are pacifists. Greed is not only condemned, but one of *7* deadly sins- and greed is what drives our world, our economy, and certainly our leaders as well. We are still reliant on middle east oil resources because of greed. We have vested interest in big business because of greed. We often look for tax cuts because of greed. The bible says specifically that God will destroy all who have caused destruction on the earth (Rev 11:18), and yet Christianity often encourages us to vote for the party that has the least concern about the Earth that God created for us.

There are so very many issues to be thought of, that I really don't think ti is fair to assume or decide that God, or the bible support either Democrat or Republican. It is a balance of scriptures, ideals, and candidates.
post #43 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stayseeliz
I don't think Jesus would've voted pro-choice..And that is the party platform of democrats..
Why wouldn't he vote pro-choice? Isn't the whole point that God gave people free will so they could make their own choices?

And my understanding of the democratic platform is that they don't believe it's appropriate to legislate abortion, not that they're pro-choice or anti-choice.
post #44 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by cherity
Do you think that "Thou shall not kill" should apply to war?? abortion??
Thats old law...not new... so it really doesn't apply like you might think.

I'm not sure what I think abotu the comment "Jsus wouldn't have voted at all". I think he would have. Because as a citizen and a Christian it is our responsibility to vote and vote for the candidate that we believe is "God led". Not sure either candidate we have now is doing that though...I think they both have their own agenda and the betterment of the country isn't the first on the to do list...

I agree that voting straight party because of your religious convictions is a bit absurd. Well, I guess thats the way it used to be. If you were a republican you voted that way no matter what. I can't remember where I heard it, I think here in another forum, that voting based on the pro-life/pro-choice stance is a dead issue. You can try and vote that way but there are other issues involved that aren't yet decided that should get more attention from us. Yes, it is important for a president to value life otherwise how can expect them to care for the country but how they intend to do that caring to me is more important.
post #45 of 63
I don't think that the way the Democrats are trying to feed the hungry cloth the poor, and health care are the way that God wants it done.

My reasoning is that he says ( I don't have time right now to look up the address of the verse) to work hard with your hands and earn a living. He doesn't say to sit on your hinny and wait for a hand out. If we all did that nothing would get done. I also don't think that everybody should make the same amount. Life doesn't work that way. There will always be rich people and poor people. Like the talents parable some people will be wise with their gifts (money, talents, abilities) others will not. Why punish the wise by giving their money to the lazy or those unwilling to work.

I know the argument that there are just not any jobs. I disagree with that already. There are a ton of jobs, some people are just to high and mighty to work them like being a janitor. You have to start somewhere.

OK sorry I got OT, but I am all fired up after the debates.

-Aggie
post #46 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by 01txaggie
I know the argument that there are just not any jobs. I disagree with that already. There are a ton of jobs, some people are just to high and mighty to work them like being a janitor. You have to start somewhere.

Um, there are no jobs. My dh was unemployed and applied everywhere for everytype of position for 6 weeks and got nothing...not even an assembly line job at a place that hires everyone... try to find a job... better yet try to let a man who has a college degree and his last job made over 30,000 try and find a job...no wants to hire you becasue they think you'll leave or that you are over qualified. Not even Walmart or McDonalds will hire you...trust me...

Back to on topic.
post #47 of 63
Quote:
My reasoning is that he says ( I don't have time right now to look up the address of the verse) to work hard with your hands and earn a living. He doesn't say to sit on your hinny and wait for a hand out. If we all did that nothing would get done.
How do you reconcile this statement with the fact that there are children and seniors starving and without health care? Doesn't the Christian God teach that you're to help those people specifically?

Quote:
I also don't think that everybody should make the same amount. Life doesn't work that way. There will always be rich people and poor people. Like the talents parable some people will be wise with their gifts (money, talents, abilities) others will not. Why punish the wise by giving their money to the lazy or those unwilling to work.
Why punish the poor so the wealthy can get more wealthy? I think it's offensive to imply that everyone WORKING and still below the poverty line, starving and without health care are lazy.
post #48 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaToFallon
I think it's offensive to imply that everyone WORKING and still below the poverty line, starving and without health care are lazy.
Yup, I agree. It is offensive. Its like a church we were in. This guy said ina meeting that heshouldbeonthe boardmaking decisions about the ne building. Since he mademore money than somepeople we would be using more of HIS money than MINE so he should have more say. Right, thats now how it works. I give my percentage jsut like he gave his.

I had a poitn to that but nowIhave a crying baby at my feet and I lost my thought.... I'll thinka bout it and finish up
post #49 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by its_our_family
Um, there are no jobs. My dh was unemployed and applied everywhere for everytype of position for 6 weeks and got nothing...not even an assembly line job at a place that hires everyone... try to find a job... better yet try to let a man who has a college degree and his last job made over 30,000 try and find a job...no wants to hire you becasue they think you'll leave or that you are over qualified. Not even Walmart or McDonalds will hire you...trust me...

Back to on topic.

I also know of several people who had stuff like this happen, and they mowed lawns, threw newspapers, got several part time jobs, trimmed trees. I am just saying that, we as americans have an ideal and will not step below that because we think it is below us, and we do not know the diffrence between needs and wants. I have a BA and since getting it have worked in a fast food resturant to make ends meet. My best friend has a BA and is night stocking at Walmart, so she can stay home during the day with her baby. I was speaking from my experiance. Where i live the Mc D's always has a sign that they are looking for help, the schools are looking for teachers, etc. In my experiance if you work hard enough you will find a job, maybe not right off, but you can make enough to feed your family.
post #50 of 63
Good for you...but to assume that is truth in every situation is wrong. Trust me he tried and finally only found a job when someone we knew within a company gotit for him. It is still sucky and not enough to all our bills and eat. I do know ppl that have the attitude you are talking about but it isn't true across the board.

Our McDonalds, Walmart, and things have signs up too but after interviewing was told he was over qualified. I think being female helps get jobs like that...not being sexist but I believe it. I could go out and get a job before dh even thoguh we have the same degree and experience.

Sorry this is OT.....
post #51 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaToFallon
How do you reconcile this statement with the fact that there are children and seniors starving and without health care? Doesn't the Christian God teach that you're to help those people specifically?.
Yes it does I am sorry that I should have qualified my statement to say that normal healthy adults excluding ld widows, orpans, and the ill. I think that there is a break down in Chrisitan church, and that is why these people are being left out. I do not think it should be a Goverment issue. I feel that if the churches would stop building multi-million dollar buildings and use that money instead to feed cloth, and take care of the poor and needy then we wouldn't have this problem. God tells us to take care of them, he doesn't say to build the biggest building in town. He doesn't say to toss them aside to let somebody else take care of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaToFallon
Why punish the poor so the wealthy can get more wealthy? I think it's offensive to imply that everyone WORKING and still below the poverty line, starving and without health care are lazy.
I am not saying that if they are there they are lazy, I am saying that if they stay that way they might look inward instead of outward for the answer. There are programs to help you grow skills to move up, elbow grease goes along way. I think that Americans like to be victims and blame other people for their problems. I also think the poverty line is to high. My hubbys wage puts us below the poverty line, but we don't do without anything we need, and we are debt free, homeowners, with savings and retirement accounts.

My lenses are colored by my experiance and by the people that I know and have dealt with. I believe that God has lead me to these conclusions, through prayer and reading the bible. I sound harsh, but this is a sore subject with me.
post #52 of 63
Quote:
Yes it does I am sorry that I should have qualified my statement to say that normal healthy adults excluding ld widows, orpans, and the ill. I think that there is a break down in Chrisitan church, and that is why these people are being left out. I do not think it should be a Goverment issue. I feel that if the churches would stop building multi-million dollar buildings and use that money instead to feed cloth, and take care of the poor and needy then we wouldn't have this problem. God tells us to take care of them, he doesn't say to build the biggest building in town. He doesn't say to toss them aside to let somebody else take care of them.
Ok, but the government is the people, and more inclusively so than any one denomination of church. (Many churches do mountains of good for society, by the way. Take the Salvation Army, for example.) So why wouldn't you want the government that represents you to help others if you expect the churches that represent you to do it? Also, I'd be interested to hear if you (or anyone else that holds this view) do anything personally to reach out to help feed and cloth people less fortunate than you?

Quote:
I am not saying that if they are there they are lazy, I am saying that if they stay that way they might look inward instead of outward for the answer.
You did say "Why punish the wise by giving their money to the lazy or those unwilling to work. " I understand that to mean you put poor people in one of two categories - those that are lazy, and those that are unwilling to work. As someone who has worked in large corporations and seen people get paid a lot of money for doing pretty easy jobs and/or for doing practically nothing, compared to growing up in a home where my mother worked two jobs and still barely managed to pay rent, I'd say that monetary reward has very litttle to do with how motivated/hard-working/wise someone is.

Quote:
My hubbys wage puts us below the poverty line, but we don't do without anything we need, and we are debt free, homeowners, with savings and retirement accounts.
That's great! But I think your situation is the exception, not the norm.

Quote:
My lenses are colored by my experiance and by the people that I know and have dealt with. I believe that God has lead me to these conclusions, through prayer and reading the bible. I sound harsh, but this is a sore subject with me.
I totally understand this. I know people that abuse the system, don't do anything to help themselves, etc. But then I know people who just need a little compassion and help so they're able to go on and do their own good in the world. Unfortunately, any system will have both sides. But I think it's sad if we choose to view the negative and allow that to erase the positive. That's just the wrong side winning.
post #53 of 63

Off-topic

Quote:
Originally Posted by 01txaggie
Yes it does I am sorry that I should have qualified my statement to say that normal healthy adults excluding ld widows, orpans, and the ill. ....
Hmm. How can one always tell? And sometimes people are only ill temporarily. But, there is frequently no safety net for them.

And what about those who have family responsibilities to those who are infirm? Or children? Yes , they are healthy...but they are considered a burden on society unless they are doing it for pay at a nursing home or a daycare.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 01txaggie
There are programs to help you grow skills to move up, elbow grease goes along way.
Few. Precious few. And various government offices consider them easy prey when budget cuts are needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 01txaggie
I think that Americans like to be victims and blame other people for their problems. I also think the poverty line is to high. My hubbys wage puts us below the poverty line, but we don't do without anything we need, and we are debt free, homeowners, with savings and retirement accounts.

My lenses are colored by my experiance and by the people that I know and have dealt with. I believe that God has lead me to these conclusions, through prayer and reading the bible. I sound harsh, but this is a sore subject with me.
I'm glad for you that you have been fortunate enough to always be in the right place at the right time to take advantage of your inate ambition and skills. I am also glad for you that you were lucky enough to, once upon a time, acquire those skills.

I pity the apparent lack of compassion to those who may not have been as fortunate. God has nothing to do with that. This is human condition.
post #54 of 63
01--There are some things you ahve said that I remotely agree wtih. I think that churches could do more than they do. When we were minsitering in VA we went through Hurricane Isabel. Sheleft us powerless for over 2 weeks. Our church NEVERlost power. What did they do to help those that were suffering?? NOTHING! Why, because they didn't want a bunch of strangers walking through their building getting things dirty (we evaced so we weren't there to do anything either )

However, I think the gov'tshould do their part to. The church can only doso much if there aren't other willingpartiesto help out.

I had those same glasses on growing up. We neerwantedfor anything that I can remember and never had to worry about spending too much etc... have the feet knocked out from under you and your views change. You realize that everyone ahs put themselves in that situation. They ended up there. There are definetely more things that can be done or at elast done better!
post #55 of 63
I didn't have everything handed to me. My family went though a terrible divorce and bankrupcy where I watched as they took everything we owned, including the only home I knew. My mom has had a severe illness, with surgery and hospital stays. But we didn't fall on the goverment to take care of us. My mom worked several jobs, one of which included mowing lawns while me and my sister weeded the flower beds, to earn money to buy school clothes. She made and decorated cakes at night while we did our homework. I started work when I was 14 so that I could help. I think that I know what it is like to be at the bottom and climb my way out.

[Quote ]I'm glad for you that you have been fortunate enough to always be in the right place at the right time to take advantage of your inate ambition and skills. I am also glad for you that you were lucky enough to, once upon a time, acquire those skills. {quote}

I haven't always been lucky, I just don't feel sorry for myself, and I work hard. Anybody can pull weeds, mow a lawn, rake leaves (ok before somebody gets me on that I should say anyone who does not have a limiting health reason). I didn't find myself in situations that allowed me to work. I went out and found work where ever I could or my mom could. Now that is what my husband does. That takes no skill or learning, just time and effort.

[quote]I pity the apparent lack of compassion to those who may not have been as fortunate. God has nothing to do with that. This is human condition [quote]

I know that not everybody "puts" themselves in bad times. Accidents happen, people get sick, divorces all kinds of things like that all of which I have been though. I just don't think it is the Goverments place to fix it. That is where family, the Church, friends, savings, come into play. If we don't require the Goverment to pay for our mistakes we would have more money in our pockets to save and pay for those mistakes our selves. I think that the current system of Govt. "fixing everything" creates people who think they can't do for themselves. I see lines of Mexicans sneaking across the boarder to work here, and they dont' have a hard time finding a job. But they are willing to work outside, doing manual labor and jobs that Americans think are below them. They said on the news last night that the highest number of people without health insurance are those with incomes over 70,000, who choose to not pay for health insurance.

I would also like to add if you have ever read Job then you would know that God does have something to do with things like that happening ( I know it is OT but he is still the same God then as his is now IMO )

Also I would like to add that I do have compassion for people who have hard times as I have stated earlier I have been there before, as a child and in my adult life. I give money, time, and stuff to many groups and people who need it more then I do. My point is that I do that and I don't want the Goverment deciding who and why somebody gets it.
post #56 of 63
01... I grew up in a single parent family with a mother that worked two and three jobs and managed to go to school just to try to make a better life for herself and for us. We had food on the table, but really no parenting to speak of. I learned a lot of positive things from my mother's hard work, but I'll tell you honestly that I could have learned a lot from her being there once in a while too. A little help for all of us would have been nice.

Interesting how we both went through hard family times but have come to completely different conclusions on social responsibility.

A few years ago I found myself being judgemental of all the kids I saw on the streets here in Toronto. Why couldn't they find a job? Why should I give a handout to a kid without an obvious desire to do better? My heart told me I was missing something, so I decided to volunteer at a local shelter for young adults so I could "get it". I learned that there are people that aren't fortunate enough to even have the most basic of skills to help care for themselves. Bright kids with no understanding of what money even is, much less knowing how to find and keep a job, pay bills, etc. Government funding, meaning money from my pocket, helps to educate those kids and ensure that they have a fighting chance for a better life. That's money well spent. I am proud that my tax dollars often go to helping people less fortunate than me, and I do not see myself as being qualified to judge those people for circumstances I can't even begin to understand.

My mother, a woman with nothing, never says no when someone asks her for money. I've asked her how she can hand over her last $5 to someone who probably just wants to use it for beer or cigarettes, and she says that she would rather give to 10 people that were using her and help one along the way really in need than live with the thought that someone was going without.
post #57 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by 01txaggie
I would also like to add if you have ever read Job then you would know that God does have something to do with things like that happening ( I know it is OT but he is still the same God then as his is now IMO )
That is only true if you believe in the Bible as being inerrant. And that that is the only word of God.

There is an old saying: "The water always tastes of the pipe."

Job is nice poetry.
post #58 of 63
How can you be a Christian and not care for the poor? And by that I mean, even if YOU have enough time and money to give to the poor (that is, the poor that you find deserving enough to receive your gifts) why shouldn't the United States, the most powerful government on earth, have leaders in place who honestly care for the poor? Who honestly believe in the idea "thou shalt not kill?"

(That doesn't mean "pro-life" by the way -- I am a firm believer that making abortions illegal just makes abortions illegal -- it does nothing to solve the problem of abortions.)

It makes me so crazy to hear "good Christians" say it is all right for innocent Iraqi children to be dying (for example) because "Saddam was putting people through wood-chippers before we invaded" [really?] and because "we have to protect our homeland from those who attack us" (I just heard this today!!!).

What about the sanctity of all human life? That includes fetuses and convicted criminals and "the enemy"!!

And Jesus was all about love, IMO. I really don't think he would be saying things like "lazy and/or uneducated and/or disadvantaged people don't deserve to have food, shelter, medical help, etc...." Whatever happened to compassion? The words I hear on these boards from conservatives almost always seem so cold and judgmental to me -- "you made your bed, now you have to lie in it." Ugh.
post #59 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meli65
How can you be a Christian and not care for the poor? And by that I mean, even if YOU have enough time and money to give to the poor (that is, the poor that you find deserving enough to receive your gifts) why shouldn't the United States, the most powerful government on earth, have leaders in place who honestly care for the poor? Who honestly believe in the idea "thou shalt not kill?"
This statement assumes several things that I do not agree as being right. You assume that because I do not support Govt welfare that I do not care for the poor. I give to the poor, out of my pocket, time, and things. And that nobody ever has enough money, you just make that a priority. giving has to come off the top of the budget or else it never will get done. And yes I do give to those I find deserving. I know how to help those people who I have a heart for, Which are battered women in my case due to my past. I know for instance that they need clothing for work, childcare, stuff to set up a house, and safe places to hide in. So there for I donate nice suits, time and appliances to the local shelter. I do not have a heart for the homeless because I can't relate to them. My friend on the other had does so he donates his time and effort to them and not to the womens shelter.

I do agree that we should have leaders who care for the poor, and weak. I do not agree that it is the Govt. place to provide for everybody. This is not a socialist, or communist govt. This is a democracy. There will be wealthy and poor. (Which as a side note My family happens to be classified as Working poor. But I think the line is way to high. We have no needs that are not being met. )

Quote:
(That doesn't mean "pro-life" by the way -- I am a firm believer that making abortions illegal just makes abortions illegal -- it does nothing to solve the problem of abortions.)
I agree with you on this point, some what. I am pro-life, but I agree that is only part of the problem. If we were a people who embraced children and stood for the family we wouldn' t have so many who wanted to have abortions.



Quote:
And Jesus was all about love, IMO. I really don't think he would be saying things like "lazy and/or uneducated and/or disadvantaged people don't deserve to have food, shelter, medical help, etc...." Whatever happened to compassion? The words I hear on these boards from conservatives almost always seem so cold and judgmental to me -- "you made your bed, now you have to lie in it." Ugh.
[/QUOTE]

Proverbs 10:4 Lazy hands make a man poor, but diligent hands bring wealth 5 He who gathers crops in the summer is a wise son, but he who sleeps during the harvest is a disgraceful son
12:24Diligent hands will rule, but laziness ends in slave labor
Matt25:14-28 (parable of talents) ... 30 and throw that worthless servent (the one who earlier was said to be lazy) outside into the darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I think that you are mistaken in that we are uncompassionate because we want to hold onto our money. My husband works very very hard to pay our bills and it is hard to see half of it go to taxes. We would be so much better off, better able to give and help others if we weren't taxed as we are. That is what this debate on feeding the poor is over. Not wheither it should be done, but how. I do agree there are people who can't support themselves or need help to become self sufficent. I do not agree it is the goverments job to do that. I also do not think that money is the answer to all the problems. If people would spend time with their kids we would see a drop in crime rates, teen pregnancy, gang activites, run aways. To allow parents the ability to do that I think the tax needs to be decrease. More money for the work they are doing would allow them to work less, and spend more time at home. If my dh didn't get the couple hundred taken out of his check every month, then he would be able to back off of working overtime shifts just to make the bills, and spend that time with us--or helping others.
post #60 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by cherity
Another thing...

should we depend on the government to set the moral tone of the country? Such as making decisions, laws, etc. that enforce issues of morality? Shouldn't that be the responsibility of the religious community and not the government's job to dictate our conscience. I understand our government's role of protecting the people's right, but...

Am I way out there on this????


I vote for whichever candidate in each particular race which I feel best represents my views. That may be republican, may be democrat, may be green.

I do NOT buy the line that "christians must vote X".

I was given freedom of choice by God and a brain to go with it. I'm able to interpret the Bible on my own and vote by that interpretation.

I personally don't believe we should ask or rely on the government to "enforce" our religious mores. I don't believe the church has any place in the government's laws nor the government any place in the church's laws.
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