Can somebody educate me about Waldorf? - Page 4

[sha_lyn]

. She had never written a book report or done a science project (what passes for science in Waldorf elementary schools is another topic -- very scary, is all I can say, but they hide that behind words such as "zoology" and "botany" in the curriculum lists they give to parents); she had never written a poem or a fiction story in class. Worried about how listless she had become ("In school, it feels like they don't want

Most public schools I know of don't do book reports, science projects etc until middle school. I can't imagine expecting a 4th grader to do those things.

[Diana W]

Elizabeth:
I also find it amusing that I have been writing this post while wearing all black, nursing my two year old and testing her letter recognition by reading an Edward Gorey books to her (The Gashlycrumb Tinies. if you must know)


I also wanted to comment on this - Elizabeth, the great, sad irony here is that the people who support you in this are the *Waldorf critics* - not Waldorf folks. Don't you get that? I smile at the picture of you wearing all black, nursing your 2-year-old and encouraging her letter recognition. Wake up! Keep that kid out of Waldorf - they don't allow that stuff! Get it? Sure, read Steiner if he interests you (though since you've said he doesn't, I can't understand why you'd be bothering trying to study material that isn't useful to you, just because you're "supposed" to because it's Waldorf? see the point the critics make about bending around to accommodate an ideology, a program?) Steiner is full of it, Elizabeth - wearing black will connect you with "dark forces" (yes, a direct quote from a Waldorf site) and might even encourage dead people in the spirit world to contact you. Nursing your 2 year old will prevent her individuating, keep her tied to your etheric forces too long. And letter recognition for 2 year olds is the most ghastly mistake you can make in Waldorf. They might not even accept her to a Waldorf school - and if they did, they'd be prescribing all sorts of quackery to try to cure her of letter recognition! You are teaching her letter 5 years too early, and you will cause her to have diseases in later life. You'd be told to get rid of those books.

People like the anti-TV thing in Waldorf and often don't get that Waldorf considers *books* almost as bad as TV for preschoolers.

Diana W/aka Diana Winters/aka Internet troll/aka mother of 9 year old, medical editor, former Waldorf teaching assistant and 3-year Waldorf parent, Philadelphia, PA

(removing carets carefully)

[Diana W]

Sha_lyn wrote:

Most public schools I know of don't do book reports, science projects etc until middle school. I can't imagine expecting a 4th grader to do those things


How old are your kids? What kind of school do you have them in? My son did science projects starting in first grade, though they weren't required till 3rd grade. My 4th grader has written two book reports so far this year and has a science report due next week. He's in a Quaker school, and it is not particularly academically intense, it's one with a reputation for being a little lower-key than some of them. He previously spent 3 years in city schools in Philadelphia - also hardly an academic pressure cooker.

If you don't want your child to have any kind of academic stimulation or challenge - if you think it is a bad thing for a 4th grader to write a book report - Waldorf may be for you. We are all coming from very different places on this it seems.
Diana

[GranolaMommy]

Are you done yet? We get it. You don't like Waldorf. You are a medical editor and you have a gifted nine year old who wilted in Waldorf. It was 6 posts ago that you said you were done. If we have any more to hear about your opinion about Waldorf, it is easy to find by looking up every single one of your previous posts.

Please drop your crusade now, at least in this thread.

[sha_lyn]

We HS now, but DS was in our local PS until the end of 6th grade. The only schools I know of that start book reports and science projects around here before 7th is the next county over. 6th grade is middle school in that county and they start book reports and science projects in 6th.

[sha_lyn]

If you don't want your child to have any kind of academic stimulation or challenge - if you think it is a bad thing for a 4th grader to write a book report - Waldorf may be for you. We are all coming from very different places on this it seems.

Oh boy I just paid attention to this little piece of bull shit.
Get off your high horse. You have made it very clear that you think no one but you cares about their children's education. No one has said they don't want their child stumulated or challenged. I haven't even said my children attend or would attend a Waldof school. I'm just adult enough to realize that my opinion is not the only right one. Too bad you can't do the same.

[Diana W]

>Are you done yet? We get it. You don't like Waldorf. You are a >medical editor and you have a gifted nine year old who wilted in >Waldorf. It was 6 posts ago that you said you were done. If we >have any more to hear about your opinion about Waldorf, it is >easy to find by looking up every single one of your previous >posts.

>Please drop your crusade now, at least in this thread.

Everyone hears what they want to hear, and I can't believe how insulting and rude you guys are. I posted stuff about my "real life" identity, including being a medical editor (which is not a glamorous career, it is rather drudgelike computer work) because of all the accusations that I was a "troll," which is really a hideous little term and it is a very strange, sad feeling to be called it, whatever it really is supposed to mean, whatever it is you think you know about me. I'm a real person. I put down my location and job etc. to put a stop to the speculating. I haven't called any of you names.

I don't have a "gifted" 4th grader, I didn't say anything like that. I have a very ordinary 4th grader, a nice kid. He does write book reports, it seems to be a typical thing, I was very surprised at whoever said she "couldn't imagine" any kid before middle school writing a book report. I was speculating from that that you have a very different goal for your child's education. Waldorf is in line with that - again, I am not making this up to insult you. They do not believe a 4th grader should write a book report. I think it is a very backward, anti-intellectual thing, and anti-democratic even, but don't get me started, but it is, in fact, what some people want, for various religious, philosophical and personal reasons, I don't know yours.
Diana
(who is trying to stop now, but as we can all see, it is an emotional topic)

[GranolaMommy]

I apologize, The "gifted" term was used by momofgurlz, not by you.

And, FWIW, the insulting and rudeness is as a response to some pretty definate insulting and rudeness of your own.

[Diana W]

Granolamommy:
And, FWIW, the insulting and rudeness is as a response to some pretty definate insulting and ruseness of your own.

Excuse me again. What rudeness would that be? I was called a troll, bitter, vengeful, and a militant. I used no term like any of these for any of you. I made statements about Waldorf.

I do not appreciate being asked not to post. This is the cattiest little group I've ever encounterd, for a bunch of so-called granola mommies looking for a nice place for their kids?! A thread was started when someone asked for information about Waldorf. I posted opinions and some links - to the Lilipoh magazine, to Steiner quotes elsewhere on the Web. How dare you tell me to shut up? If you don't want to hear it, you don't have to read it. If you want to say something else about Waldorf, if you have another opinion go ahead, I don't ask you not to post it. Several people have posted all their great experiences with Waldorf. Do you hear me asking them to shut up?

I protested very vehemently when Elizabeth said that Waldorf critics make up Steiner quotes. I still find it unbelievable. I pressed her very hard to provide any evidence of this, which she has not done and I find those accusations extremely wrong, unethical, thoughtless, dangerous, slanderous. I am so sorry if you find these statements of mine "rude." Look within, "strive" as the anthroposophists say, strive hard not to tell lies in public places and turn vicious when asked to stand behind your own statements.

I am sorry you don't get it. I turned up here a few days ago because I thought the recent Lilipoh article on how you should wean at 6 months might open a few eyes about Steiner/Waldorf in AP circles. I didn't know if there was a Waldorf discussion going on then, turned out there was; if that's "trolling," to provide opinions on the topic, pardon me guys, go on back to your alternative gentle lifestyle now.

[sha_lyn]

He does write book reports, it seems to be a typical thing, I was very surprised at whoever said she "couldn't imagine" any kid before middle school writing a book report. I was speculating from that that you have a very different goal for your child's education. Waldorf is in line with that - again, I am not making this up to insult you. They do not believe

Who said they couldn't imagine a kid writign a book report before middle school? It certainly wasn't me. I said I couldn't imagine expecting a 4th grader to write one, or to do a science project. I said the Public schools here do not start it until middle school, so it certainly doesn't seem typical for a 4th grader to be doing it. You seem to live only in the reality of the school your child did attend and attends now, and the need of your child only. You really give the impression that you think that no child could learn at a Waldof school and that all Waldof school are identical to the one your child attended.

I also wanted to comment on this - Elizabeth, the great, sad irony here is that the people who support you in this are the *Waldorf critics* - not Waldorf folks. Don't you get that? I smile at the picture of you wearing all black, nursing your 2-year-old and encouraging her letter recognition. Wake up! Keep that kid out of Waldorf - they don't allow that stuff! Get it?

Where has any of the "waldorf folks" here showed any lack of support for her. You love painting everyone with any interest in Waldorf with a wide brush.

And, FWIW, the insulting and rudeness is as a response to some pretty definate insulting and ruseness of your own.

You are trying to justify being rude and insulting to everyone here for what a few have said. I was only rude to you until you insulted me.

[Diana W]

And, FWIW, the insulting and rudeness is as a response to some pretty definate insulting and ruseness of your own.
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You are trying to justify being rude and insulting to everyone here for what a few have said. I was only rude to you until you insulted me.


The cutting and pasting has mixed everything up, and you're now quoting your friend, there, darlin', not me.

[sha_lyn]

Oh so sorry, I highlighted the wrong sentence. It's even worse. You don't even think you've been insulting. If you would actually use the quote format it wouldn't get confusing. However youe actions made it clear that you want to keep things as confusing as possible so you can justify your attacks on us.

Excuse me again. What rudeness would that be? I was called a troll, bitter, vengeful, and a militant. I used no term like any of these for any of you. I made statements about Waldorf.

If only it were true that you have only made statments about Waldorf, and not attacked everyone here.

[I Believe in Fairies]

Re: why should I be surprised?

Originally posted by momofgurlz

Elizabeth says:

<< I also find it amusing that I have been writing this post while wearing all black, nursing my two year old and testing her letter recognition by reading an Edward Gorey books to her (The Gashlycrumb Tinies. if you must know)>>

Lisa: That worries me, Elizabeth. If you allow your two year old to learn her letters (which you know and I know is good for her if she is ready, and it sounds like she is!), your Waldorf story may end up like ours did.

I have said - and it is part of my sig file - I am HOME SCHOOLING Annabelle. I have the Oak Meadow stuff and I can guarantee you that my daughter will not be taught anything I don't 100% agree with. LOL

[I Believe in Fairies]

I am dropping this. I have said that the Swedish site has all the information about the lectures and quotes that were most likely created by this alleged "historian".

I am reading Steiner not because I was told I "had" to but because I *want* to. I have read the Critics site and as I have said I do not trust them. So I am reading Steiner on my own so I can decide how I feel about a man who has been dead a long time.

For the record, I do believe in fate/destiny/karma. It may not be what everyone else thinks it is but it works for me : D

[I Believe in Fairies]

I am dropping this. I have said that the Swedish site has all the information about the lectures and quotes that were most likely created by this alleged "historian".

I am reading Steiner not because I was told I "had" to but because I *want* to. I have read the Critics site and as I have said I do not trust them. So I am reading Steiner on my own so I can decide how I feel about a man who has been dead a long time.

For the record, I do believe in fate/destiny/karma. It may not be what everyone else thinks it is but it works for me : D

[Diana W]

Elizabeth repeats her allegation, unashamed:

>I have said that the Swedish site has all the information about >the lectures and quotes that were most likely created by this >alleged "historian".

I will repeat one final time, if you believe this is true, you need to quote here the material that you believe was "created" by Peter Staudenmaier, and then I will be happy to provide the actual source for you, xeroxes if you like. I know at least one other critic has access to the Steiner book in question (Mission of the Folk Souls).

You could also contact Sune Nordwall, if you don't trust us hysterical types. Sune also definitely has this book as he has quoted from it at length on the critics discussion list. Ask him to send you a xerox. (While you're at it, you might ask him why he took the lecture off his site.) Then you can study the lecture cycle (I think it's 11 lectures), and you can read everything Peter Staudenmaier has written about it. Staudenmaier's article is at the critics site www.waldorfcritics.org along with several replies from anthroposophists.

Then you can report back here if you found "forged" passages or "quotes" that Staudenmaier "created" that are not actually in the lecture. Good luck with this project, it will be worth your while.

[momofgurlz]

homeschooling no good, Waldorf expert says

I thought Elizabeth, in particular, might be interested in the following. It is a link to an article by a Waldorf teacher who, like many Waldorf teachers, advises parents strongly NOT to try to "Waldorf" homeschool their children because the parents are not "professionals" and for a host of other reasons.

Here's the link, with excerpts for those who don't want to read the whole thing.

In the newsletter of the Waldorf School Association of Ontario,

http://www.waldorf.ca/Other/spring2002.pdf

(Lisa again: there's a brief article announcing a Waldorf conference on
homeschooling, paired with a longer article by Mel Belenson, a
teacher at the Ottawa Waldorf School. Belenson says that there may be
valid reasons for wanting to homeschool, like there being no school
nearby, the school being full, or a disability that prevents
attendance. "It is difficult to imagine any other legitimate reason
for choosing home-schooling over enrolling in a Waldorf school." Please note that I have added words in the brackets where sentences were edited, to provide fuller meaning.)

Belenson argues "Does the parent feel he or she can do it better than
the professionals who are teaching daily in the classroom? ... Does
not the striving of the individuals who are responsible for the
classroom have any validity? ... Waldorf education is primarily a
social education. The origins of the first Waldorf school, and the
philosophical underpinnings of the education, attest to that [that
the school is to foster the Threefold Social Order]. The continuing
transformations of family life attest to that [homeschoolers can't
have their lifestyles controlled by the faculty]. Self-centered
isolation and individualization of children at an early age are not
in keeping with the spirit of Waldorf education [God forbid children
should be individualized]."

"It is hardly likely that the relationship between a parent and a
child can carry the same impact as does that between the class
teacher and the child."

"...Home-schooling that makes use of Waldorf methods cannot be true
Waldorf education. Support and encouragement of so-called Waldorf
home-schooling on the part of existing schools, organizations,
internet websites, publications, etc. is not a good thing."

[momofgurlz]

to TracyMc: informing parents about anthro

In a message posted earlier this thread, TracyMc tells us:

<<Our school does not hide Anthroposophy, in fact they offer a class to teach more about it ... <snip>>

Lisa here: Tracy, to my knowledge, the class that is offered to parents is a somewhat new development at your school. If I am not mistaken, this course in the foundations of anthroposophy is new this year ... am I correct? (Or perhaps you have not been at the school long enough to compare?) In past years, once families were enrolled and children attending the school, a notice would sometimes appear in the "Waldorf Weekly" citing an upcoming meeting of the Raphael Branch {of the Anthrop. Society} in case anyone wanted to go. But there was little to no *real* outreach to parents to educate them about Anthroposophy.

Just wondering here: did your child's Waldorf school tell you, before you enrolled her, that she would be getting an anthroposophical education and what that meant? I don't mean did they tell you that the education was "informed by" or "inspired by" Anthroposophy (which is the most many schools will say.) I mean: did they actually tell you, either through conversation and/or literature (promotional material, etc.) that the entire curriculum and approach is based on and permeated with Anthroposophy, just as a Catholic school would make sure you knew they would educate your child according to Catholicism?
(In other words, did they tell you that the "child development model" that the school uses is extremely different in most ways from other, more mainstream child development models?)

If so, well, I congratulate the school. All Waldorf schools should, as part of the admissions process, engage parents considering enrolling in an indepth conversation about anthroposophy, so there are no misunderstandings once the child is in the classroom.

Of the 70 or so "Waldorf survivors" I communicate with daily via the internet, I would say 65 or so enrolled their children believing that what Waldorf offered was an arts based, nonsectarian education that was loosely based on the ideas of someone named Steiner who lived a long time ago and who most people have not heard of. People are led to think that Waldorf schools offer the same information, etc. that non-Waldorf schools do, but just in a different way. Even if we cannot agree on anything else, I think we can all agree that that is a simplistic statement that is basically untrue. (Children in Waldorf schools learn a history that is different from non-Waldorf kidsl. Waldorf science has been condemned by science education groups in the US; the content is very different -- and scientifically, inaccurate -- than what is learned in other schools. I could go on and on.)

If Waldorf schools would make their reality clear upfront, there would be no need for a Waldorf survivors group (which now has 70+ members from all over the world) and no purpose for a Waldorf critics list.

Lisa

[moondiapers]

book reports

Only commenting on this part....

Here in our public schools (which are 48th in the country, so not very high up acedemically) they start book reports in teh second grade. They are pretty low key and include lots of artwork, but are still book reports. Also, science projects start in Kindergarten. And those are the two subjects that our schools actually excell at here. I don't think it's a lot of pressure to put on a child, to write about a book they've read, or do a science project.

In the schools that I attended we started book reports in 2nd grade, and science projects in 3rd. I think my first was to determine what additives in water kept cut flowers fresh the longest.

-Heather

[Britishmum]

I don't quite understand all the upset here over book reports and science projects, and don't have time to read this whole thread at the rate it's progressing

However, in my experience in many public schools in the UK, it is quite normal for children to do book reports and science projects from a very early age in elementary school. Book reports in a simple format probably from 3rd or 4th grade, and science projects a little later.

But then, we also believed that it was perfectly normal for some children to learn to read before the age of seven.

Anyway, what a shame that this discussion can't seem to progress in a civil manner. As I've said before, a good educational system should not be fearful of critics.

I've done my research in the past and am critical of many aspects of Waldorf. But it is always interesting to hear both sides - if they can be presented calmly without personal attacks.

Just an observation. We all care deeply about our children, and we should be able to set them an example by being able to discuss something emotive rationally and politely. Shouldn't we? :