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Well, she might circ, she might not.... help!  

post #1 of 32
9/29/04 at 1:45am
Thread Starter 
My son's Aunt had a baby boy today. I was up visiting her and while everyone else went to the nursery to watch the bath I stayed with her (she had a c-section so wasn't allowed up). We started talking about circumcision because she warned me that they might do it tomorrow so she wasn't sure if he would be up for visitors. I didn't know what to say. She asked if my son was circ'd and I said yes, but that I have my regrets. I told her about why I did it (b/c the dad- her brother- wanted it done and I was naive and didn't research it). I told her that I've done some more research on it since then and have learned a lot. I asked her if she had done any research and she said very minimal but that she had read it was safer/cleaner. I told her that was not necessarily true. I think that was what she wanted to hear so we started talking more about it. She admitted she couldn't stand the thought of her new baby going through that pain. She didn't want to jeopardize the nursing relationship if the baby refused to eat (which I think is what happened with my DS who was nursing great until the circ and then stopped eating almost altogether until he was so jaundiced he needed a biliblanket). She was under the impression that the baby would be getting anestesia (sp?) and wouldn't be awake, and would be getting at least tylenol afterwards. I told her that was absolutely false, that he would be awake, strapped down, and if he was lucky might have some numbing cream- but nothing else. She was horrified. She decided to put off the circ for now. She's going to do more research before she decides and, like I told her, she can always get it done if she decides to. But she can't undo it if she decides later she doesn't want it done. I told her I would email her some links. If anyone has any I would be so grateful, as would this baby, if you could share them! I'm looking especially for things like statistics on botched circs or other risks, along with info on the cleanliness part. THANKS!
post #2 of 32
9/29/04 at 10:10am
Steph - good for you for being there with this Mom and baby!

One of the most powerful links I know of is here:

http://www.infocirc.org/MensHlth.htm

These two articles are also good, and the second one addresses the hygiene issue.
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/...renting/109225

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/1311/109434

This is also an excellent article, by Marilyn Milos, and it addresses the hygiene issue, making the point that the foreskin is protective - it protects the sensitive glans throughout a man's life. The thought of tiny circumcised baby sitting in wet or messy diapers - so , so sad...

http://www.cirp.org/library/ethics/milos-macris/

I'm sure others will come along with other links. Those are the ones I could find in the limited amount of time I have at the computer right now.

It sounds like this Mom doesn't want to circumcise - if a Mom doesn't want to, usually what they need is a reason not to, as well as support for their decision from someone they know. That Mom and son are very very lucky to have you there!
post #3 of 32
9/29/04 at 10:13am
Do a google search for Congrats it's a boy and that means he has a foreskin.A basic pamphlet.And I think the pamphlets at http://www.cirp.org are good. Remind her that her son might not want parts of his penis cut off,and that some men are suing for that loss. Stress how easy an intact penis is to care for-just wipe the outside.Wiping the inside will be his issue when older, and is no more difficult than it is for women to wash their own genitals. Cut gentials are far more difficult to care for.
Best wishes!
post #4 of 32
9/29/04 at 10:23am
After the baby is born is usually too late because it usually takes a while for parents to come around. After all, people have been drilling false information into their head for 20 or 30 years already. Just a single statement from a doctor or nurse at this late date can undo everything instantly but that's not a reason to give up.

For the pain information, go to www.CIRP.org and use the search word "Pain." You will find plenty. Also search for "Statements" and you will get the official policy statements of all of the world's medical societies. Search for "meatal stenosis" and you will find that the incidence of this complication is 10% to 30%, far higher than all complications combined as admitted by the AAP. Go to www.circumcisionquotes.com and you will find pictures of botched circumcisions Read here about all of the problems with penile adhesions that have been brought here. There are several threads. When the AAP says the risks outweigh the *potential* benefits, they aren't kidding. They just don't even come close to the truth about how much the risks outweigh the benefits. They also don't explain "potential" benefits as being not known or conclusive. As of this date, there is no known and conclusive benefit to circumcision.

You may want to try to buy some time by suggesting that she use a pediatrician instead of an obstetrician if she decides to go ahead with it. After all, if there is a screwup, the pediatrician is going to have to deal with it any way and pediatricians are far, far more likely to use anesthetics. She is also more likely to get a warning against circumcision from a pediatrician because they are as a group, less supportive.

Hopefully, you can save this boy. We're keeping our fingers crossed for you.




Frank
post #5 of 32
9/29/04 at 10:37am
To counter what Frank said... it's also possible that a single statement from a Dr or nurse can reinforce and cement the seeds you have already planted.

We all know very well how many times people got the impression that the hospital staff was pushing or supportive for circumcision and then when they refused the circumcision- the staff was DELIGHTED. Of course they hide this from parents who plan to circumcise and the only people who get to see that reaction are the ones who refuse- this mom might just be one of those- she might get lots of support just because she gives a tentative "no"

Is there a dad in the picture? Are you only tryiong to convince the mom?

I suggest the men's Health Article for Dads (Mommiska gave it) ... and the Fleiss articles for both parents.



Love Sarah
post #6 of 32
9/29/04 at 11:40am
Hi there, here are some links for you.

Procedure,
http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/methods.html

General info,
http://www.mothering.com/10-0-0/html...cision85.shtml
http://www.circumcision.org/info.htm
http://www.noharmm.org/separated.htm
http://www.mensjournal.com/healthFit...cumcision.html
http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/ilearned.html

MGMvsFGM,
http://www.noharmm.org/comparison.htm
http://www.circumstitions.com/FGMvsMGM.html
http://www.circumstitions.com/Develop.html

Rates,
http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/bollinger2001/
http://www.courtchallenge.com/refs/rate1m.html

Medical communities,
http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/
http://www.nocircnc/medicalstatements.htm
http://www.circumcision.org/studies.htm
http://www.intact.ca/saskmemo.html
http://www.icigi.org/Downloads/FullDisclosure.pdf

UTIs
http://www.infocirc.org/uti2.htm

Risks and Complications,
http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/complications.html
http://www.nocirc.org/consent/form.html

Breastfeeding,
http://www.nocirc.org/statements/bre...ement2002.html

Cancer,
http://www.cirp.org/library/statemen...s/1996-02_ACS/

Personal experiences,
http://www.stopcirc.com/
http://www.circumcision.org/mothers.htm
http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/chose_to_circ.html

IntactvsCirced penis care,
http://www.nocirc.org/publish/4pam.pdf
http://www.nocirc.org/publish/5pam.pdf
http://www.tornwing.com/peacefulbegi...ysgenitals.htm
http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/

Hygiene&problems
http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/vanhowe/

News articles,
http://www.cirp.org/news/

Pain,
http://www.circumcison.org/response.htm
http://www.infocirc.org/babypain.htm

Sexual side effects,
http://www.boystoo.com/medical/conversion.htm
http://www.reserach/cirp.org/
http://www.norm.org/lost.html

Cute articles,
http://www.geocities.com/raisingintactsons/
http://www.circumstitions.com/Itsaboy.html

Adult circumcision(why not leave it up to him?)
http://www.circumcisioncenter.com/
http://www.nocircoftx.org/info/vs.html

Foreskin restoration,
http://www.norm.org


Other great sites for research,
http://www.cirp.org
http://www.circumcision.org
http://www.infocirc.org
http://www.circumcisionquotes.com
http://www.nocirc.org
http://www.noharm.org
http://www.intact.ca
http://www.mothering.com
http://www.fathermag.com
http://www.circumstitions.com
http://www.icigi.org/
http://www.boystoo.com
http://www.courtchallenge.com
http://www.sicsociety.org
http://www.stopcirc.com
http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org
http://www.norm-uk.org

Good luck to you and that little boy!

Take care,
Tara
post #7 of 32
9/29/04 at 2:17pm
just tell her to go with her gut instinct to protect her little boy. the anaesthesia wears off and they feel a lot of pain for two or 3 days.
post #8 of 32
9/29/04 at 9:43pm
I think what is really good is that fact that your SIL has an open mind to be more informed.
post #9 of 32
9/29/04 at 10:04pm
I sent you some info yesterday Steph. So....the first thing dh asked today was "does Owen's cousin still have his foreskin"? Well....is Evan still intact?
post #10 of 32
9/29/04 at 10:50pm
Thread Starter 
THANK YOU ALL! First I have to say I messed up on his name- he's Ethan, not Evan. Bad Steph!

Second- he still has his foreskin for now.... but it's far from over. The dr decided she didn't even want to do it today (which, btw, at this hospital the peds do the circ, not the OB's) so came in briefly when I was visiting and said she would do it tomorrow. I mean, she walked in, said it, and walked out. Didn't leave anyone any time to say anything. After that I got CA (the mom) alone and we talked more about it and she is scared to death that what happened to me is going to happen to her. (In short the nurse came in, took Owen, and wheeled him out while saying *It's time for the circumcision*. I couldn't even react. And I honestly don't remember signing any papers- which is probably because I was doped up on pain killers). She is so afraid they're going to do the same thing tomorrow and since she did have a c-section it's not like she can jump up and run after him. So I told her she just needs to be firm. Say no. I explained if she says no they can not do it. I also talked to her mom (who hasn't left the hospital yet so is always around) about CA's fears and she said that she would stand up for CA and not let that baby out of her sight. I guess CA had not actually talked to her mom about it so her mom was under the impression she was going to do the circumcision. But from what I gathered her mom is actually anti-circ and was very glad to know that CA didn't want it done right now. I'm still working on getting her all the info so she plans on telling them tomorrow that she hasn't made up her mind and that she's not going to do the circumcision right now. I'll keep you updated. I think if we can make it through Friday (when she's discharged) then this baby boy has a good chance.

Oh, as for the dad question- he's in and out. They aren't together and he's basically showing up every once in a while to show off the baby to a friend (or his new girlfriend which CA was pissed about) so right now she's not really taking his opinion (to circ) into consideration. She's been pretty strong with him. When I was there she also stood up to him and told him Ethan would have her last name until her could prove he wanted to and would be a good father to the baby.
post #11 of 32
9/29/04 at 10:57pm
Have her write "Ethan ____ is not to be circumcised" and sign it. If anyone circumcizes him, it will be sexual assault (yep..it's true). Actually, if you never signed the papers, it is assault on Owen as well.

Also, have her call me if she wants to know anything specific about what it's like to care for an uncirc'ed penis (LOL...actually, you don't do anything, so it really is easy!). Or I can talk to her this weekend if she wants to wait that long.

LOL...she can always tell her boyfriend that it's Ethan's penis and he can circ it when he's an adult if he chooses to. Until then, noone's going to do anything...
post #12 of 32
9/29/04 at 11:00pm
Oh, and I find it hilarious that the hospital that forced your son to be circ'ed is the same one that was giving CA cytotec after cytotec because they did an unnecessary induction...good grief! (Yeah, if I was still living there, you better believe I would have had Bran in a different hospital. No offense to mom, but if she's not working there, the place seems to go to shambles).
post #13 of 32
9/30/04 at 9:30pm
Thread Starter 
He got circ'd. I am so pissed. Not because she circ'd him because she was basically forced to. Her dad and Matt (her brother and my son's dad) talked to her and told her she *had* to circ him (keep in mind she lives in her parents house so feels at least a little obligation to do things they want her to). So she asked the nurses to explain to her what would happen, whether it was necessary, what the rates of botched circs was, ect. And the only damn thing they told her is that she should get it done because the *nastiest* (yes, their words) thing they've seen is the elderly men at the hospital who are not circ'd (the OB is on the same floor as the elderly people ward). They basically scared her into it. They refused to give her ANY actual information on it. She said they had that talk last night and when the nurse left the room CA told her she still hadn't decided if she wanted him circ'd. This morning they came in, took the baby, and told her while they were on their way out that it was *circ time*. She knows she could have stopped them if she had tried but she said she just broke down and cried instead. She already says she regrets it because it wasn't her decision. They did do a nerve block with it and after her begging they gave him some tylenol afterwards. I feel so horrible for her. On a side note she says she doesn't remember signing any papers for a circ, unless it was days ago (monday) when she was first admitted and she was signing papers left and right. But she doesn't remember any on that.
post #14 of 32
9/30/04 at 10:41pm
I was very sad to read this post.Always so sad that any circs occur,but especially so when a mother is pushed to do it.The mother should report the nurses who made those discusting comments about intact elderly men.Their names should be recorded for when the boy is old enough to sue,and include them in it. The hospital should also be held acountable for not providing accurate information.

I lived with my mom too after having kids,but there is no way I felt like I owed anything beyond money and keeping the house clean-the children were not hers.It is unfortunate she was forced into this. I doubt I could even have any contact with them(the family) after this. I think at every diaper change I would say-look wtf you did to this once perfect little boy! I will never forgive and I will make sure he knows who is responsible for this,because it wasn't me!
Hugs for the mother,and bigs hugs for this little boy tortured and mutilated. Hospitals are not safe places to birth,and sadly little boys in this country are NEVER safe from circumcision.One would think if you make it home intact that the circ issue is over,but it lasts a lifetime in this type of culture.
Sara
post #15 of 32
9/30/04 at 11:12pm
I hate that hospital. From the unnecesary first induction to the forced circumcision, I would seriously hire a lawyer. So many poor babies are having unnecessary medical procedures done without legal (and informed) consent. For the record, ALL medical procedures must receive INFORMED consent...meaning that the parents must understand and agree to the risks and benefits of the procedure. I hate that hospital...

Here's some good info on the legal ramifications of forced circing... http://www.cirp.org/library/legal/

Quote:
(keep in mind she lives in her parents house so feels at least a little obligation to do things they want her to).

I'm sorry, but that's crap. Her son's penis has no bearing on the well-being of Matt, or Matt's father. If they have insecurity issues about penises, that's there problem...but Ethan's foreskin has NOTHING to do with the financial, physical, or emotional well being of the family, nor is a foreskin proper rent for living in a person's house. That's just coercive crap. Sorry, but that ticks me off, almost as much as the little #@$! that said the nastiest thing she's ever seen is an elderly man's uncirced penis. What a jerk.
post #16 of 32
10/1/04 at 10:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllyRae
For the record, ALL medical procedures must receive INFORMED consent...meaning that the parents must understand and agree to the risks and benefits of the procedure.

Very true, but if this mother is not a legal adult, her parents can give informed consent and there is not a thing she can do about it.


Quote:
nor is a foreskin proper rent for living in a person's house. That's just coercive crap.
Very true and I really like that thought!

Quote:
Sorry, but that ticks me off, almost as much as the little #@$! that said the nastiest thing she's ever seen is an elderly man's uncirced penis. What a jerk.
Also true and prima facie evidence she was not doing the job she was paid to do.


Frank
post #17 of 32
10/1/04 at 11:48am
I hate reading these threads, but I read every one of them. I'm so sorry for the baby. I'm mad at the mom. (not fair or helpfull, I know) I'm mad at the relatives. (Why do they have to get involved??? Are they going to ever show this much interest in the little guys penis again???) I'm mad at the ignorant nurses & Dr. These threads hurt me. I get so hopefull with the mom that's trying to help, and it seems they all end this way. I have to remind myself that 5 years ago, I was in the boat of the questioning soon-to-be-mom of a boy, and my story ended differently - intact little boy despite relatives & some health care workers. I'm so glad.

It's inspiring to me that many of you (who have been part of this community FAR longer than me) read these same threads, with the same outcomes, and you still take the time to give every new poster great links and information. Thank you.

Steph&Owen - good job at trying to help her. Many people feel so weird about bringing circ up with friends & relatives. It's inspiring that you did your best to show her what a mistake she could make. She may have another little boy in the future, and at least she'll go INTO the next (hypothetical) pregnancy with questions & concerns.
post #18 of 32
10/1/04 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmandaBL
It's inspiring to me that many of you (who have been part of this community FAR longer than me) read these same threads, with the same outcomes, and you still take the time to give every new poster great links and information. Thank you.

When I got into this, it was very discouraging but I didn't know that I couldn't save every single one. Back then, there were very many we didn't save and over time, I had a range of emotions including desperate, depressed, hopeless, angry, outraged, and resigned. However, I was naieve and pressed on through it all. Slowly but surely the tide has changed and we now get lots of mothers who tell us that we saved their sons and thank us profusely. That is the only thing that keeps us going.

I remember when I first became involved, I found a discussion about circumcision that dated back to 1991. That was before there were any graphics on the internet, just numbers and letters. I can imagine if I had joined then, the task would have been so overwhelming that I would have given up. Thank god for those who have gone before us and have blazed the trail. We are now seeing concrete results from their work.

Imagine what Marilyn Milos of NOCIRC was up against! She started this movement 25 years ago and is still at it after all of that time. The odds against her were incredible! She was a nurse and lost her job simply because she dared to give parents factual information against circumcision. How many of us could withstand that kind of pressure and retribution? Many of us can't even bring ourselves to talk about it with family and friends!

We are very fortunate to have all of those who went before us and laid down the foundations of this movement. Yes, it does get discouraging and it is painful when we fail but now, we have so many more successes. We've got to remember those success and keep forging on. There are many, many parents out there who really do want to hear the truth and we've got to tell them. If we don't, no one will.





Frank
post #19 of 32
10/1/04 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmandaBL
I hate reading these threads, but I read every one of them. I'm so sorry for the baby. I'm mad at the mom. (not fair or helpfull, I know) I'm mad at the relatives. (Why do they have to get involved??? Are they going to ever show this much interest in the little guys penis again???) I'm mad at the ignorant nurses & Dr. These threads hurt me. I get so hopefull with the mom that's trying to help, and it seems they all end this way. I have to remind myself that 5 years ago, I was in the boat of the questioning soon-to-be-mom of a boy, and my story ended differently - intact little boy despite relatives & some health care workers. I'm so glad.

It's inspiring to me that many of you (who have been part of this community FAR longer than me) read these same threads, with the same outcomes, and you still take the time to give every new poster great links and information. Thank you.

Steph&Owen - good job at trying to help her. Many people feel so weird about bringing circ up with friends & relatives. It's inspiring that you did your best to show her what a mistake she could make. She may have another little boy in the future, and at least she'll go INTO the next (hypothetical) pregnancy with questions & concerns.
I know how you feel. When I was pregnant I had no idea what I was having, but I was determined not to circ if it was a boy. My one and only reason was that it wasn't my penis. I had no idea what actually happened during a circumcision, I had no idea that my son would be in pain, I knew nothing about it but I still wouldn't do it because it wasn't my penis. Yet there are women who have *much* more information that I had about it and still do it anyway. I want to cry over every story I read about where this happens. Even if circumcision was just "a snip off the tip", even if it didn't hurt at all and there were no complications, I still wouldn't understand how anyone felt they had the right to do it to a poor, defenseless, innocent baby boy. I just don't understand.

Luckily I delivered in a nice hospital. No one came to steal my son from me and the only nurse who asked me about it was relieved when I said I wasn't having it done.

Thank goodness the only pregnant woman I know is having a girl, because I know there would be no convincing her. She would circ her son if she had one and I know she wouldn't listen to me. I'm glad I don't have to try. (But I still would anyway.)
post #20 of 32
10/1/04 at 6:17pm
Oh, Steph - . Good for you for trying. That poor baby - and poor mom.

I am just BEYOND pissed off at American culture, where mothers are pressured to hand over their precious, perfect newborn sons to have a healthy, functioning body part amputated.
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