family purity - for Jewish mamas

[me&3]

I have a friend who is frum who really shies away from talking about this topic - I know it's not exactly supposed to be discussed at a dinner party (!) but is it really a no no to talk about this? Would posting about this topic here offend anyone? I am currently learning about taharat mishpacha, and would love to discuss it here with all you Jewish learned mamas. What do you think?

[merpk]

Would love to, it's a topic near & dear to my heart. I think most frum women would consider it not terribly tznu'ah to talk about it, meaning ... well, not modest, is one way of defining it, but it's more than that. A little too exposed for some tastes, I guess.

It's also something that isn't too understood, and a lot of feminists find problems with it, thinking that it's a clean/unclean anti-menstrual misogynist thing, as opposed to a ritually pure/not ritually pure thing.

Having lived life first without these laws and now with them, I can honestly say they're a lifesaver, and very very very AP-helpful.

Relating to mama'dom, the first thing that comes to mind is that every co-sleeping article/expert says that at first the mother should be next to baby, and the father may not be as sensitive to the infant's presence, so for a while in the beginning the mother should be either in between them or something like that. So the laws of taharas ha'mishpakha come along and say that for approximately eight weeks after the baby's born, mother and father should have a separation between them ... mother and baby are alone to bond as only a mother and baby could ...

It all ... fits ... so smoothly ...

I could go on all night. I'll stop now.

- Amy

[crazy_eights]

While it's not a topic I would address in the midst of a party, I don't mind talking about the subject at all. Open to all questions...

[me&3]

Oh goodie!!!

Wellllll, I'm learning right now with a JME, and we've covered a lot of ground. Most of it makes a lot of sense to me (the grand exception being to consult a rabbi about a stain I'm not sure of - oh yeah, right, like I'd go show a MAN my panties). Hardy har har.

Anyway, another friend of mine who goes to the mikvah told me that I should observe it not like "the orthodox" do - that it's barbaric to check with a cloth, and that they wait too long each month just to be sure, and it's not *really* supposed to be like that, but the rabbis added more time onto the whole thing. What do you ladies say about that? I haven't had a chance to look into her point of view yet - she said that maybe there are articles out there that talk about it??? Anyone know anything about that? I haven't seen too much out there about the specifics of the observance in Conservative circles.

Another question - I am fortunate in that my dh is supportive of this (as he has been about almost everything in my journey towards observance). But when I told him last night that I couldn't give him a kiss goodnight, he poo-poohed me and told me not to be silly. How do you think I should address this? I mean, here I am, learning all of this great stuff, and he isn't. And any spare time he has, he isn't about to go read about taharat mishpacha...

[dandelion]

I'm very comfortable talking about it and kind of wish it wasn't so "hush hush" so that more people could see the beauty of it.

[crazy_eights]

me&3 - your friend is only 'sort of' right. This is off the top of my head, so I'll have to post an addendum later if I'm off on something. Biblically there are more than 1 kind of "flows". "dam nidda" - blood that makes you a "nidda" (menstuation) requires 7 days total before going to the mikva and "dam zova" - a "discharge", literally, requires a a week after the bleeding has stopped. Historically, women had a tradition to distinguish between the two, but as time passed, the tradition was lost. In order to be careful, women accepted upon themselves (it was not impossed by the rabbis!) to be stringent in this matter and to act as if all flows were were a "zova" - a discharge- and wait 7 days after the discharge has stopped to immerse in the mikva. I believe that I've heard said that a zova was related to an early miscarriage? The worry was that the bleeding could come when you expect your period and you would assume it was just "dam nidda" and not wait long enough. You can look up the relevant verses in the Torah - the nidda is followed immediately by the zova, but I'll have to post an exact citation later.

As for checking with a cloth - there are a number of issues involved here. First, often you will be surprised to find that you are still staining when if you were not doing the checks you would not notice the discharge. Secondly, this is something you probably won't be able to appreciate at the moment, but many of the rabbis who are experts in examining the cloths (to determine whether the blood invalidates a counting or not) can often tell subtle distinctions that can indicate other conditions - for instance, I've personally known women who were told (correctly) they were pregnant, had a tubal pregnancy or that they should follow up with an OB b/c the blood on the cloth indicated uterine cancer (we should never know from it!). This is the level of training in the distinctions between types of bleeding they have. Just so you should know - the cloths (and underwear!) can be submitted anonomously.

As for the "seperation" issue with your husband, well, many people find it very hard to consistantly abstain from intercourse if they can still hug and sleep in the same bed, etc. But this is something you will have to work out for yourself and your husband and what level of observance you can both live with comfortably at the moment.

I hope this has helped!

Kol tuv (all the best),
Chava

[merpk]

To add to Chava's explanations, I can attest to the fact that we were not conceiving at all, and I summarily refused to ask a rav anything at all, and finally got tired enough of getting my period that I agreed to ask, as funny as I felt about it ... anyway, the point is, and this is no exaggeration: The first month we sent a cloth to a rav to inquire, he told me we were waiting too long, and what I had considered a "stain" was not a halakhic stain at all. We conceived immediately. And following the rav's explanation, we continued to conceive.

Our rav put it to me this way: The halakha on its face involves a separation, but the job of a rav is to keep husbands & wives together.

- Amy

[merpk]

Oh, and there was something else about that issue, which was that in the years of the enormous Jewish immigration to the US, when many women were still very strict about following the halakhas of taharat ha'mishpakha, Jewish women had lower cervical cancer rates ... by a large margin ... than the rest of the population. In the post-war years, as observance waned, Jewish cervical cancer rates evened out with the rest of the population.

Interesting, right?

- Amy

[merpk]

Sorry to keep doing this, but I keep getting ideas for responses after I hit the "post reply" button, & hey, I'm getting close to that senior label, can't help myself.

As far as the mechanics of the separation go, I was concerned about it at first. We lived together in our pre-frum stages, and separation wasn't where we were at, you know? Well, we have found it to be a particularly important part of our lives. The approx. two weeks apart means really time to ourselves, while still being together. Not being able to use sex as a means of making up from an argument means having to use actual communication {!!} to get out of an argument.

And the absolute separation, the laws that say not even to touch, those took a while of practice and a lot of discussion about comfort levels. Every couple works it out how they want, whatever feels right for them.

Again, having lived first without it and now for years with it, it's one of the most powerful centers and grounding mechanisms I've ever known ...

- Amy

[1jooj]

Lurk...lurk...lurk...

Pssst...It's I, your friendly neighborhood Muslim. More, please. This is fascinating--not in a gawking way, more like an Ah-ha experience way. Where can I read all about these things, so I don't have to eavesdrop and pick up only bits?

[crazy_eights]

Do a web search for "taharat hamishpacha", "mikvah", or "Jewish family purity" - that should give you a good place to find info.

[merpk]

Hey, UmmNuh ...

At its basics, taharat ha'mishpakha involves monthly separation around the menstrual period. From the moment that the first drop of blood appears until seven days after the last drop leaves, husband and wife do not (at the very least) have sexual contact, and at its most stringent application (and the way it is generally followed, truth be told) don't touch at all. That includes not hugging or kissing, or even passing a salt shaker ... or sleeping or even sitting on the bed together. (The bed part involves separating the mattresses by a few inches at the least.)

The time of separation is in the woman's hands, and the decision when it ends is, too, and the woman checks thoroughly (and physically, again in the stringent application) to make sure there is not even a hint of blood ... and counts seven days. After the seventh day, she prepares herself thoroughly, cleanses every millimeter of her body, takes a halakhically-mandated minimum half-hour bath (I love that part ) and then immerses in the mikvah (ritual bath).

Immersion in the mikvah is my favorite thing in the universe (even though I'm not crazy about going under water). Feminist writers compare it to returning to the womb, being reborn. It feels that way, truly ...

- Amy

[Irishmommy]

Ummnuh, I've been eavesdropping too. It sounds really interesting, and when I get time I will do those searches.

Amyprk, I asked you in another thread why you cover your hair. I guess that question fits in here better!

[merpk]

Actually, Irishmommy, my hair covering is a separate issue from the laws of "family purity." UmmNuh had a thread I glommed onto about that months ago ... right around the time my baby was born, which is why I think I missed where that thread ended up ...

- Amy

[nylika]

Hi!
This is a very interesting thread for me because I didn't practice taharat mishpacha for the first two years of marriage (we didn't live in a country where that was really possible, but I know about the dedication many women have to this part of their lives overcoming many more obstacles than I had - but I guess I didn't think it was that important). Then we moved to a place where mikvah was very accessible and nice so I decided to try it and since we talked about trying to have a baby, i thought it would be especialy important to conceive "in purity" and also to make the TTC time more romantic so the sex doesn't become a routine performed just to TTC. Anyway...
me&3, you said:
"when I told him last night that I couldn't give him a kiss goodnight, he poo-poohed me and told me not to be silly. How do you think I should address this?"
When the seperation time came my husband had the same reaction. to deal with it, I made a deal with him that went along like this "let's try this for three cycles, sticking to the rules (which I explained as simply as possible) and see if the sex is better and the relationship as well". He agreed reluctantly, but my husband would be interested in almost anything that promised more sex and better sex, etc. LOL - so this worked for him. After 3 months, I'm not sure how much he believed it was better, but he and I had both become used to it, so we kept at for about 2 years.
This brings me back to my question. We were okay with the taharat mishpacha and I think maybe I enjoyed it more than he did because of the sense of space, anticipation and the very spiritual mikvah experience. Finally, we decided to really ttc and stopped using birth control. I got pg in 3 months and all was good. Then had our ds (almost a year ago). Because of how it all went in the end and the birth by c/s which left me more devasted and depressed than I should say here, I became a little, hmmm, angry with the medical establishment, this spilled into my view of the world and changed the way I see a lot of things with regards to the way men and women are treated differently in society, etc. I think/hope you understand where I am and why. On top of this, I still haven't menstruated, but then I didn't go to mikvah after the postpartum bleeding and lochia, etc all stopped, either. I wasn't in the state of mind or body for it when all the discharge stopped and though I thought about it, I haven't gone back, because something in my mind is telling me that this isn't really right anymore for all the feminist reasons you mentioned, Amy. (Another reason is because sex hasn't really been so important to me since ds was born, much to dh's disappointment, since we wouldn't have to seperate for niddah periods during this time )
So my question is this: what is the compelling arguement in support of the practice of taharat hamishpacha, or that the seperation during the niddah period specifically is not another way to say that women are lower on the scale than men? How do I reconcile my growing "feminist" feelings with my wish to live and raise ds in a traditional Jewish home? Sorry for the rambling here, there is so much going through my mind and I know I am still very much not myself in the sense of how the c/s has affected my life, so i don't know how much sense this makes. But i really would like to talk about this topic.

[dandelion]

Nylika, I'm sorry about what you've been through and can certainly understand your feelings. I used to see taharat hamishpacha as conflicting with my feminism as well, but I now see it as a privilege rather than something forced upon me. Since observing this mitzvah, I have been able to appreciate my womanhood in a way I never was before. I now actually enjoy bleeding and feel more womanly than usual, almost as I did in labor. And then of course there's the whole mikvah experience...

Going to the mikvah now may give you a sense of renewal and may be just what you need after the c/s. And remember that this mitzvah is retroactive.

(I'd write more and hope to later, but I just realized the time and I've got to run. I do want to let you know, however, that my husband and I don't observe taharat hamishpacha in the most stringent interpretation and most likely never will. It's just not us. And Amy, I'm not sure you're correct that that's the way it's "generally followed". I suppose it depends on the circle.)

[dandelion]

Just one more thought about feminism -- Many feminists feel it's repressive for women to stay at home with their kids and not have full-time careers out of the home. And then there are those of us that feel that it is *because* of our feminism that we forego a career to care for our children. Perhaps this is why a traditional Jewish home works for some, but not for others.

[CrunchyGranolaMom]

Just want to recommend the book "Total Immersion" by Rivka Slonim, a collection of essays about mikvah and taharat hamishpacha. I've read and own many other ones (including the widely recommended "Secret of Jewish Femininity" which, frankly, I hate, although that's the standard text in many JME classes), but I think this one is the best, esp. for women who are not FFB (frum from birth).

[BelovedBird]

Originally posted by nylika
So my question is this: what is the compelling arguement in support of the practice of taharat hamishpacha, or that the seperation during the niddah period specifically is not another way to say that women are lower on the scale than men? How do I reconcile my growing "feminist" feelings with my wish to live and raise ds in a traditional Jewish home? Sorry for the rambling here, there is so much going through my mind and I know I am still very much not myself in the sense of how the c/s has affected my life, so i don't know how much sense this makes. But i really would like to talk about this topic.

I am sorry about the trauma of the C/S.

Well, to begin with it is my firmly held opinion that women are not "lower on the scale than men" in torah judaism. After growing up very much as a feminist in a feminist house I have found my most fulfilling expression of being feminine in torah judaism. If anything the seperation of a niddah from her husband puts the woman in control of the situation, the man being the one at the disadvantage not the woman. He does not decide if she is tamay or tahor. Only the woman says whether she is tahor or not.
The basic idea behind taharas hamishpacha in my view, as I have learned it:
A person with a soul has a level of (tahorah/ kedusha) purity/ holiness. Creation of life is a higher spiritual level of tahorah and kedusha. A pregnant woman is considered to be on a higher spiritual or holiness plane bacause she contains more than one soul (holy spark from G-d). A woman who is at the fertile point of her cycle, at the point where the egg is ready or is about to be ready to be fertilized has more "holiness" because of the potential creation of life. A woman whose body has let go of that potential life (by birth, miscarriage or menstruating) now has a void of that holiness, her body no longer containing that other potential life. Therefore she immerses in the mikva to begin te cycle again, in holiness and purity.
Men have a similar status when they have an immision of semen, because that is also a potential for creating life.
I know this post is a bit choppy/ unclear, Im sorry. I am really tired and have a big headache.

-BelovedBird

[nylika]

Dandelion,
You said: "Going to the mikvah now may give you a sense of renewal and may be just what you need after the c/s."
Maybe you're right!
I know this sounds like it's a quick turnaround, but I've spent so much time thinking about this on and off, thinking about what this means if I go to the mikvah, what I'm saying about myself and the "evil" medical establishment (I know it must sound so strange to be relating everything to doctors, but that's just the way my mind is bent these days) how I can reconcile it with my very personal decision to never EVER again be put into a demeaning situation because I am female, and so on and on. But I guess I'm dancing around the real test of my feelings. I should just count my clean days and go and see if I like it again or if I get a panic attack. Thanks for reminding me of this sensible approach to all mitzvot. I'm probably misstating it here but I remember something from my yeshiva days about doing first and understanding why later. Thank you.
Nylika