I peirced my DDs ears yesterday.... - Page 9

[Sofiamomma]

Britishmum,

Ear piercing is not the same thing as circumcision or the same thing as spanking. To compare really muddies up the waters. Okay that is one point.

Another point. Just me personally, but I am not defending causing infant's pain. I am advocating telling this mom what you (general you) think in a way that does not bruise her. It is not as simple as saying "We do not value causing infant's pain." There is more to it than that. We do all kinds of things to cause our infants pain, but we feel we have good reasons for them. If you disagree with this mother's reason for causing her infant pain then I think an a moderated response is in order, which again, personally, I feel yours was.

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by Sofiamomma

Ear piercing is not the same thing as circumcision or the same thing as spanking. To compare really muddies up the waters. Okay that is one point.

That really depends on who you are. To me, they are all acts of the same kind, though perhaps at a different point on the continuum. They all disrespect a child's body, they all treat a child as property.

I am advocating telling this mom what you (general you) think in a way that does not bruise her.

I'm going to respectfully suggest that there is likely not a way to tell the mothers on this thread who advocate piercing their infant daughters' ears that you disagree with their actions without bruising them.

(How's that for a run-on sentence?)

[burritomama]

slight OT:

Dragonfly, that is NOT a run-on sentence (English major talking here). It is whole. Long ,yes, run-on, no.

[wemoon]

Originally Posted by Sofiamomma

We do all kinds of things to cause our infants pain, but we feel we have good reasons for them.

WHAT????? Who does all kinds of things to cause their infants pain???? This is just too much. Never thought I would see the day where this was posted on MDC?

[annakiss]

I've done lots of things to torture my poor infant, though of course they were all with very good reason. He had four surgeries by 13 months and therefore was tortured numerous times with blood testing, being taken away from me, getting IVs started, being examined, etc. Many, many times we looked in his mouth when he didn't want us to. Sometimes I laid him down so I could pee or pump, which he didn't like. I bathed him, which he always hated. I clipped his fingernails a couple of times while he was awake (once I even clipped his skin accidentally) before I figured out to do it when he was asleep. Hmm... There was lots of stuff. Looking at things on his body that he didn't want me to look at like in his ears - ooh! cleaning his ears... What else? Tons of stuff. Not sure that constitutes abuse.

[BelovedBird]

annakiss, don't forget nasal aspiration and nebulizers.

[Colorful~Mama]

my dd is 4 and i thought for sure she'd want pierced ears but she says 'it looks like it hurts. i think i'll wait til i'm older"

her teenage sister has two holes in each ear (first holes done at age 4 by a gramma who didn't listen to me, second holes for her 12th bday for her request). And i have four holes in one ear, and one hole in the other.
Even dads ears are both pierced tho he no longer wears earrings.

but nope. she's got a mind of her own and says 'no thank you' when someone (usually gramma or well meaning friend) asks.

[mamawanabe]

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

I'm going to respectfully suggest that there is likely not a way to tell the mothers on this thread who advocate piercing their infant daughters' ears that you disagree with their actions without bruising them.

But lots of posts did just that, or at least attempted it. Early on, before the harsh posts, the OP did note that no one agreed with her, but she wasn't defensive or sullen. If the conversation had continued like that, than piecers may have learned something (and those of us who wouldn't pierce might have come to understand why those who do do - which would help us convince others who might not to).

But instead came the self-rightous, make an extreme anaology (i.e. piercing ears is like periodically lpinching your child periodically because you like the designs the bruises make . . .). And then no one was even listening - everyone had choosen sides and was just rooting thier team on (my side is the "everyone is being mean side" BTW ).

[Britishmum]

"Ear piercing is not the same thing as circumcision or the same thing as spanking. To compare really muddies up the waters."

I don't think my comments were remotely muddying the waters. And nobody addressed my point. Which was, that if we here on mdc do not accept causing an infant pain through spanking for reasons of thinking it is for discipline, then how can we have a double standard and be asked to be respectful of the choice to stick pins in a child's ears for cosmetic purposes?

That is not saying that spanking = piercing = circumcision but the principle is the same.

We cannot say that in one context it is unacceptable to harm children, but in another, it's fine. And the double standard seems to me to be even more extreme as the argument for piercing is often the 'cuteness' factor. There is often not even an argument - which I personally still dont accept as valid - of culture or supposed health or discipline. Simply cuteness, which was the reasoning of the OP.

So, is cuteness acceptable as a reason for harming a child, but discipline not?

I just do not get it, nor do I feel that I am at MDC when people think that they can post a question like this and get strokes and support. Nor wehn so many people give that support.

[mamawanabe]

Originally Posted by Britishmum

That is not saying that spanking = piercing = circumcision but the principle is the same.

So, is cuteness acceptable as a reason for harming a child, but discipline not?

I just do not get it, nor do I feel that I am at MDC when people think that they can post a question like this and get strokes and support. Nor wehn so many people give that support.

When people start objecting to things "on principle," something small (and usually petty) is sure to follow

Here's a difference - most reasonable people would not spank themselves or hit themselves (doing so is actually a mental illness), yet many reasonable people pierce their ears.

Now I am not a fan of piercing babes, BUT it isn't "like" spanking (not even in principle).

And it would be nice to discuss it ideologically without the intentionally inflamatory mis-anologies.

The amazing thing about a DISCUSSION board is that not everyone is going to think like you. The pierce-the-baby set found this out as did the non-pierce-the-baby set. This issue disqualifies none of us from being loving attached parents, however. Nor does it disqualify any of us from belonging at MDC. It is a minor issue.

[Britishmum]

"Here's a difference - most reasonable people would not spank themselves or hit themselves (doing so is actually a mental illness), yet many reasonable people pierce their ears."

But many reasonable people do not. And a baby does not have the choice.

"it isn't "like" spanking (not even in principle)."

I believe that we should hold principles in our parenting. For example, not hurting children. And spanking hurts. Circumcision hurts. Piercing hurts. So they are similar. They all inflict pain. Different degrees of pain, different reasons for inflicting it, but pain nonetheless. Inflicted on someone else's body for no medical reason, without their consent. How can there be no similarity?

I am fully aware that this is a discussion board. I come here to discuss. But I do not come here to discuss the merits of circumcision nor do I come here to discuss the merits of spanking. In fact, I do not come her to discuss the merits of inflicting pain on children or altering their bodies without their consent.

And there is a clear double standard here. I dont see these things as 'mis-analogies' and certainly not intentionally so. What I see as an analogy, clearly some others do not, but that does not make it intentionally inflamatory.

I did not say anywhere that anyone who pierces their child is therefore not a loving parent. Nor that they are then disqualified from MDC.

But personally, I think that support for the subject of inflicting pain for cosmetic reasons should be as taboo here as is the subject of spanking. I am fully aware that there are members here who agree with circumcision, but they do not espouse that on the boards. There are also some occasionally who espouse spanking, but quickly they are silenced.

Yet we are here talking of sticking needles in babies to make them look 'cuter' and to object is seen as 'venomous'. Yet if someone asks about something like time out in discipline, they would get a string of replies about how wrong it was.

It makes no sense to me at all, and it does not feel like MDC to me.

I see nothing wrong in having principles, like not intentionally harming children to any degree. If that is seen as inflamatory by some people, then so be it. I will personally speak out (politely) against harming children when a discussion is taking place, and the OP asked for opinions.

[Aura_Kitten]

i came back and saw this, on page 4... If you wouldn't take that tone with a complete stranger on the street who asked you about your opinion, why would you do it online?



maybe YOU wouldn't, but *I* would.

i personally hold the belief that WE DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO ALTER OUR CHILD'S BODY IN ANY WAY. and if someone were to come up to me in person and ask me my opinion on their very young daughter's ear piercing i would tell them that, in those words. IT IS NOT YOUR CHOICE TO MAKE.

HOW are we supposed to teach our baby girls to love, respect, and honor their own bodies, and to honor the fact that they have power over their own bodies and their own choices, if we take the liberty to force our will on their body when they cannot give their consent??


I still think culture is a poor excuse to put a child through pain and alter their bodies unnecessarily

ITA.

for those who defend culture as an acceptable reason to pierce their child's ears (or circumcise their boys for that matter): do you also believe in female circumcision? or lip stretching?

i don't believe that it is right to mutilate a child's body, regardless of cultural context. if they are old enough to give consent, than that is their CHOICE, but until they can give that consent, NOTHING should be done to them!

[Calm]

"It was a real struggle too"

"DO IT!! DO IT!!"

"upset by the restraint position I had to hold her in"

If these things were not said, or had been put across in a different manner, I would not have been as upset by the OP. Having just been through an ordeal that required me to restrain and inject my daughter for health reasons, and feeling how terrible the situation is to go through, I was saddened that people were choosing to go through this for beauty.

To the OP - I know you were looking for reassurance, and if you were standing by me I would give you a hug and tell you what I thought and ask you how you got the strength, and then tell you everything will be ok.

To the angry - I understand, I felt the same.

To the defenders - good for you for helping the OP, she needed it.

To MDC - I too think this is a little against what you stand for, as piercing and tatooing of any nature on children (noses, ears, labia, penises, eyebrows) is not as crunchy as it is soggy.

Crunchy, now where did that come from?

[charmarty]

Calm~ I like you. I really like you.
Peace to you Mama.

[Calm]

Oh, thanks Charmarty. I remember you, from another "place", and you are lovely and always supportive. So, peace right back at you - always.

BTW - I love your sig!

[wemoon]

AnnaKiss, I'm having a real hard time telling the tone of your post, I'm assuming it is in response to what I wrote about inflicting pain on infants. All I can think to do is give you a Obviously medical and cosmetic are two totally different things.

[annakiss]

wemoon, the tone was intended to be blunt, not mean or sarcastic, perhaps a bit incredulous, and I'm not taking sides in this debate. I'm merely pointing out the million and a half instances where I inflicted pain on my son, some of it medically necessary, some of it more for my insatiable urge to make him clean. I am being light-hearted, not trying to be mean or sarcastic, as I said. Thanks for the hugs.

[heartmama]

annakiss I just do not relate to your energy in this thread.

Like Calm, I was devestated watching my son go through medical procedures. What would I have given to spare him even the mildly painful one's? ANYTHING! I would have done it to myself, sold our home, anything if he didn't have to be "held in a restraining position" as the OP described it, while painful things were done to him.

I refuse to relate my feeling of total helpless agony, to a conscious choice like the OP made for her child to experience pain.

I am having a hard time understanding how you feel they relate.

I feel like it trivializes how much I DID NOT want it done, to say all childhood pain reflects the same on the parent.

[BelovedBird]

THis

Originally Posted by Sofiamomma
We do all kinds of things to cause our infants pain, but we feel we have good reasons for them.

and then this:

Originally Posted by wemoon

WHAT????? Who does all kinds of things to cause their infants pain???? This is just too much. Never thought I would see the day where this was posted on MDC?

was what annakiss was replying to, heartmama.

I added two things to annakiss's response because I think wemoon's response was WAY over dramatic and not based in reality.
Everyone does something that causes their infant at least discomfort, even if they NEVER vax, circ, ear pierce or other elective things. I know my baby's screamed and thrashed when I tried to asperate their noses even though before the asperation they were unable to nurse and kept waking up crying because they could not breathe. At the very least, we birth them, which *cannot* be too pleasant an experience.
Not to mention children who have ever had health issues or hospital visits.

I disagree with earpeircing infants but I also disagree that any child can get through life with no pain and that if the parent ever lets their infant experiance pain they don't belong here.

[happyhippiemama]

Originally Posted by wemoon

Ok I will :LOL
It really isn't that hard to communicate and convey thoughts and feelings to our children.

Aw crap. Wemoon, it's a shame I like and respect you so much, because you always just rip that rug right out from under me. :LOL

I'm not continuing this little bit, mostly bc the princess tangent is so intriguing, I can't focus on earrings.

crystal