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I peirced my DDs ears yesterday.... - Page 10

post #181 of 433
Beloved Bird there is such a vast difference between inflicting pain by choice, and enduring pain that happens without the parent having a choice.

I can't imagine piercing a baby for any reason, short of saving their life.

As far as cultural reasons, unless you live in an oppressive country, it is still a choice. I'm sure most here recognize that culture we choose to follow is very different than culture we are forced to follow.
post #182 of 433
Let's see, I birthed them, one had a huge hematoma, I'm sure that was painful, the other was a breech extraction thru an emergency C-section incison (she was head down to begin with so that must have been scary for her as well), one was given formula which has led to leaky gut syndrome, which I imagine is painful, they were each tested for inborn errors of metabolism, stabbed in the heel with a lancet, that must've hurt. One recieved a vitamin K shot. They've both had blood tests for hemoglobin and lead checks. I had very good reasons for all of the above. I've also caused unintentional pain because of clumsiness or missteps, such as when cutting fingernails, or accidentally bumping a head going thru a doorway just as babe reared back.

I didn't pierce my babies' ears, because I didn't feel right causing them pain just so they could have cute earrings. If someone were to ask me my opinion I would say something very similar.

My objection to some of the posts in this thread is the tone, the words used, and how it is put. I don't think it serves any purpose to compare piercing to spanking or circumcision. I think there are ways to say that you (general you) object to causing infants' unnecessary pain without being rude, mean, sarcastic, snide, inflammatory, etc.

Certainly, if the majority of us agree that it is not within MDC's framework of values to support piercing infants along with not supporting circ'ing, or spanking, we could decide to ban it as a topic. I'm not sure how helpful that would be, though, in convincing someone not to do it.
post #183 of 433
I wonder the reason behind the OP's post? It seemed to me like it may have been giuded by a teeny weeny bit of guilt. That is just my oponion though.

I like to think of this thread as this:
There are ppl out there who do things just cause. Just cause the neighbour did it and it looks cute. Just cause the doc said it was ok. Just cause all the other kids are doing it and the list goes on and on. PPl are so much of the cookie cutter gang these days that it doesn't even really phase them to think, hey what about HER rights to HER own body? I do not think there is any less love in those folks than anyone who posted with such passion in this thread. Now, maybe next time because of this discussion someone will have a light bulb moment and say "Hey! You're right." Respect is taught and learnt. You are not just born with it.

Peace mama's
post #184 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbow


That said, I won't push my morals on you- I just really disliked the "shame on you" comment if I decide to state that I find it morally wrong. *I* do not think culture is a valid reason to continue doing something I find wrong. No shame on me for that, none at all.
Ah,, you will have to accept my appologies. I read your post as "Shame on you Poetmama," that is why I got so defensive. But now that you have clarified, I feel better and understand your point! Thanks for being clear on that!
post #185 of 433
To anyone reading this post: I am not angry here, just a bit sarcastic. Damn internet can't get my tone of vioce right!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain
Whew...what a relief that it's already out there! Now will you follow me around the boards, posting right after every thread I post on? Just so people don't think I'm judgemental for judging the judgementalism of the judgtificationalistic judgement. I would hate to be misinterpreted, or worse yet, judged.

I love that Bible thing people try to throw at you, where let he who is without sin, whatever...it's always the last resort when your logic is not thought out. It says, "no one say anything that I don't like" --which is, of course, the beginning of saying "I refuse to consider other opinions---you're judgemental"

Poetmama, if you're still seething out there somewhere,
someday, I hope that you will find your peace.

I'm off to bleach my infants hair blonde. Sure the chemicals burn her, but they'll go away. Maybe I'll nurse her while I do it. Yeah, that's it. She looks like such a princess that way.

...stirring the pot....cackle cackle cackle
I begin to become defensive and use the judgemental word when people begin to equate ear piercing with child abuse. That issue has been put to rest. When someone flings words like "morally wrong," around, it is hard not to think that someone is judging you. What else could they be doing by saying that I or the OP is immoral in piercing.

So how is someone not judging anothers culture if they are saying "your practice is morally wrong, cruel, and just not right according to my morals and feelings" which they are holding me up to.

Whew, I have been gone since Monday or so dealing with school and the like. Hope I covered everything.

Still will not debate this as a circusision (male or female) issue. Don't have the time. Lip streching is much like earlobe stretching (which the Mayans and Aztecs also did), you don't stretch the lip all at once, its gradual. That's so it doesn't hurt.

Here is where the sacrasm comes in:
Off to randomly kick my ds and slap my dd (got to continue the abuse you know, that twenty seconds of piercing wasn't enough...), tell my parents they are morally wrong for keeping me a little woman by piercing me, and beat my dog.

I will have peace when I can be assured that people with the same skin color as I (re: Not white) can live in a land where they are not told their practices and lives are immoral, suspect, or heathen. (But maybe that belongs in Activism...) Until then, the peace I get from my family will have to do.

I've grown weary of this debate. As I've said before, you won't change my mind, I won't change yours. I probably won't be posting anymore on it. I've said all I can. (I think, of course my dh would be shocked by that sentence...)
post #186 of 433
Poetsmama, spanking and circumcision are a huge part of white culture; since you are defending pain based on cultural tradition.

It is not disrespect for culture but ultimate respect for the individual child that compels the idea that elective pain is ethically wrong.
post #187 of 433
Spicey Mama - sorry I didn't see this one sooner... I would have stood by you the whole way. s

I had my daughters ears pierced at 9 weeks. My husband is Spanish, actually FROM Spain, and it is very much a part of their culture. We choose to do it, while I was initially nervous, to respect his culture. My dd didn't like it, but she was fine, and like another poster, immediately nursed and we never heard another thing from her. Her ears look great, nearly two years later. We keep 14k gold in them and we have never had a problem.

I hate that some threads at MDC get soooo heated, especially over something that has already been done.. There's no turnin back the clock. You did it. I agree that you DID ask for opinions, but opinions don't have to come with such a nasty attitude.
This one was a hot one before, and if I remember correctly it ended up locked, a few months back.

So, if anyone wants to see a picture of Gabi in her ADORABLE earrings, please... ask. She looks soooo cute, she really likes them....

and I have every confidence that I am a good mom...

post #188 of 433
I am from an Hispanic culture, where girls are expected to get their ears pierced. So they can look "bonita."

Does this mean I would do it? NO WAY!! I agree with the poster that said there are still choices within your culture. I follow some things and others I do not.

This is the same circ argument; they go in, don't cry and are fine afterwards. That is what parents tell themselves, to make themselves feel better.

I think they truly believe this. No parents wants to believe that they intentionally caused unncessary pain.

When a man wants to circ, they usually have to prove why it is necessary. Find some data that shows its benefit.

I think the same should go for ear piercing. What are the benefits? Cuteness.

What are the cons? unncessary pain, possible complications/infection, choking hazard, right to choose, extra care, etc.

Like my dh said last night when I told him about this thread:

Why would anyone cause unncessary pain?
Isnt there a chance of infection/complication?


Leave it to a man to put it in perspective...
post #189 of 433
This thread has been fascinating to read. There are so many issues that have been brought up. But, I have to reply quickly so I can go find the princess thread. I have never understood why anyone would want a little girl to be a princess - I can't wait to go see what I'm missing.

I agree that MDC is a place where people come for support, info, etc.,. But does that mean that if we aren't supportive, we shouldn't say anything? And we'll all just agree all the time? How would we learn anything that way? I get tired of people posting conflicting questions and then getting so upset that no one agrees with them. When I ask questions or advice, I generally want people to speak their minds. And I generally ask before I make the decision, or what's the point of asking??

I agree that culture is a horrible reason to inflict pain on children. I'm a Jew, married to a Jew, with an intact son. There is a lot of beauty and love in Judaism. There are many ways for us to connect to our heritage through rituals, holidays, customs, songs, language, etc.,. He can do all that with a foreskin. And I'm sure there are other ways of celebrating other cultures without earrings, etc.,. At least wait until the child can choose. My son may decide he wants to be circumcised, and that will be fine as long as it's his choice. The same is true for earrings.

My daughter has a friend who is 11. My daughter is 3. We were bowling, and we found out that her friend was going to get her ears double pierced that afternoon. My daughter was begging and crying, she wanted earrings too, please, etc.,. So, we went along, and we saw her friend do it and she instantly changed her mind. Now if anyone mentions ear piercing she holds her hand up and says, "Not me!" I'm not sure what scared her, but I was glad she changed her mind. I think I would have let her if she saw it done and still wanted it. We talked about the pain, care, etc.,. but I feel that she is too young. I'm not sure when she'll be ready.

Ok, off to read about princesses (yuck!).

Take care,
post #190 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by zaftigmama
<snip>

I agree that MDC is a place where people come for support, info, etc.,. But does that mean that if we aren't supportive, we shouldn't say anything? And we'll all just agree all the time? How would we learn anything that way? I get tired of people posting conflicting questions and then getting so upset that no one agrees with them. When I ask questions or advice, I generally want people to speak their minds. And I generally ask before I make the decision, or what's the point of asking??

I agree that culture is a horrible reason to inflict pain on children. I'm a Jew, married to a Jew, with an intact son. There is a lot of beauty and love in Judaism. There are many ways for us to connect to our heritage through rituals, holidays, customs, songs, language, etc.,. He can do all that with a foreskin. And I'm sure there are other ways of celebrating other cultures without earrings, etc.,.
<snip>

Good points, both. I agree. Couldn't cultural practices be modified from earrings to bracelets? Jewelry/adornment without permanent modification or unnecessary pain.

FWIW, I dislike the look of earrings on babies or little girls, regardless of the reason for doing so. It makes them seem artificial, somehow. Detracts from their cuteness rather than contributes to it. JMO, anyway.
post #191 of 433
Britishmum, I hear you and ITA. It is a HUGE double standard to oppose hurting a child for disciplinary reasons but to support hurting a child for (supposedly) aesthetic ones. I don't get it either.

I wish people would learn to separate condemnations of their deeds and condemnations of their being. In other words, me saying I don't think you should have pierced your daughter's ears and giving you my reasons why does not equal an indictment of your totality as a parent or a human being. I don't think anyone here has said anyone is a horrible person or parent.

I don't think ear piercing is abuse. I also don't think circumcision or spanking is abuse. I think calling it that is divisive and inflammatory and downright inaccurate. It doesn't have to be abuse to be wrong. I am sorry that people's feelings were hurt on this thread, but I really didn't see anything that was so bad. Well, maybe one or two posts but the overwhelming majority were not disrespectful. I think some people get defensive when they are disagreed with and they read things into stuff that is not there. I am getting tired of the "kid glove" approach some people seem to expect. It seems like anything less than "Here is my opinion, but anything you decide is fine" is unacceptable to some members here. Yes, definitely, we should not insult or berate each other. But you know what, sometimes we are going to disagree and we are not going to think each other's viewpoint is "fine". That in itself does not equal an attack. It's starting to feel like Salem 1660 around here, where at the first hint of "non-acceptance" of someone's ideas everyone pounces on them and starts yelling "Judgement!"
post #192 of 433
I have to say I don't really understand some of the comments about how we all cause our babies pain. Being unhappy is not the same thing as being in pain. Changing a baby's diaper, bathing a baby, putting a baby down so I can go to the bathroom doesn't cause a baby pain and it's silly to say that it does even if the baby cries as a result. Ear piercing, circumcision and spanking all cause physical pain. To sort of shrug that off with a flippant "well we all cause our babies pain at some point" doesn't make any sense to me. ITA with Britishmum if we aren't allowed to argue for spanking or circumcision for whatever reasons because they hurt our babies why are we allowed to advocate ear piercing for cultural or asthetic reasons?
post #193 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartmama
Poetsmama, spanking and circumcision are a huge part of white culture; since you are defending pain based on cultural tradition.
I'm going to have to disagree with this statement. Circumcision became common in the US after WW2, but I wouldn't say that it's a huge part of white culture, or a part of the culture at all. It's just something that the overwhelming majority of Americans have given little or no thought to. Spanking might be part of white culture, but I'd say that's changing-- the majority of Americans don't believe that it's okay to spank a child. Even the ones who do believe in spanking won't do it in public for fear of reprisal (most of the time), so how could it be called a huge part of the culture?

Quote:
It is not disrespect for culture but ultimate respect for the individual child that compels the idea that elective pain is ethically wrong.
Okay, let's say that you're heavily into NFL, so much so that you don't have a television at all. You will not let your child watch television at home, and you have therefore made them different from the majority of other children. You've made your child an outcast for the sake of your beliefs. You've certainly done it because you believe your child will be better off in the long run, but when other kids don't want to talk to your child because they haven't seen the latest show on Nickelodeon, you dc certainly doesn't see it that way. You have caused "elective pain" to your child. Is it, then, ethically wrong not to have a television? You might argue that physical pain is somehow different from emotional trauma, but think back on the most painful experiences of your life: they were more likely to have been emotional than physical. One could argue that by not letting your child watch television, you are donig them *more* damage than a fleeting moment of pain such as that caused by (most) ear piercings.

(Just some thoughts. Personally, I'm against piercing little girls, but then I've got no reason to do it and several reasons not to. I'm just very much against someone attacking another's culture just because it doesn't fit into their personal worldview.)
post #194 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by wasabi
I have to say I don't really understand some of the comments about how we all cause our babies pain. Being unhappy is not the same thing as being in pain. Changing a baby's diaper, bathing a baby, putting a baby down so I can go to the bathroom doesn't cause a baby pain and it's silly to say that it does even if the baby cries as a result. Ear piercing, circumcision and spanking all cause physical pain. To sort of shrug that off with a flippant "well we all cause our babies pain at some point" doesn't make any sense to me. ITA with Britishmum if we aren't allowed to argue for spanking or circumcision for whatever reasons because they hurt our babies why are we allowed to advocate ear piercing for cultural or asthetic reasons?
Many other things I described were pain, however. I was merely combatting one (what I viewed as) excessive statement about causing infants pain. It had nothing to do with the argument overall. In fact, I still haven't taken any stance other than yes, we cause our children temporary pain at times.
post #195 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by eilonwy
I'm going to have to disagree with this statement. Circumcision became common in the US after WW2, but I wouldn't say that it's a huge part of white culture, or a part of the culture at all. It's just something that the overwhelming majority of Americans have given little or no thought to. Spanking might be part of white culture, but I'd say that's changing-- the majority of Americans don't believe that it's okay to spank a child. Even the ones who do believe in spanking won't do it in public for fear of reprisal (most of the time), so how could it be called a huge part of the culture?



Okay, let's say that you're heavily into NFL, so much so that you don't have a television at all. You will not let your child watch television at home, and you have therefore made them different from the majority of other children. You've made your child an outcast for the sake of your beliefs. You've certainly done it because you believe your child will be better off in the long run, but when other kids don't want to talk to your child because they haven't seen the latest show on Nickelodeon, you dc certainly doesn't see it that way. You have caused "elective pain" to your child. Is it, then, ethically wrong not to have a television? You might argue that physical pain is somehow different from emotional trauma, but think back on the most painful experiences of your life: they were more likely to have been emotional than physical. One could argue that by not letting your child watch television, you are donig them *more* damage than a fleeting moment of pain such as that caused by (most) ear piercings.

(Just some thoughts. Personally, I'm against piercing little girls, but then I've got no reason to do it and several reasons not to. I'm just very much against someone attacking another's culture just because it doesn't fit into their personal worldview.)
No TV here- they are not noticably different from their peers at all- it causes no pain And I seriously doubt it will cause any emotional trauma. We have yet to have anyone refuse to talk to them because they don't know about Nick or Cartoon Network.

Like I said earlier, it is very much my culture, or how I was raised to pierce the ears of little girls- I'm not attacking another person's culture. I'm saying if it is morally wrong to me, it is morally wrong to me inspite of our culture.
post #196 of 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poetmama
Ah,, you will have to accept my appologies. I read your post as "Shame on you Poetmama," that is why I got so defensive. But now that you have clarified, I feel better and understand your point! Thanks for being clear on that!
Not at all Glad it is clear
post #197 of 433
eilonwy~

We obviously define culture differently. Circumcision and spanking have been the apple pie and Red Ryder wagon of parenting boys in white U.S. culture for the better part of the last 100 years. Try finding 100 white guys over 30 raised in the U.S. by U.S. born parents who weren't spanked or circed, and it won't be easy. I'd say that reflects very strongly on our culture. It still takes a great deal of conviction to go against that tradition. To not circ or never spank is still met with strong resistance from parents, friends, even doctors. To me, that is culture.

I have to laugh at the second part of your post because we actually do not have a television. My son is 8. It was a family decision ( he agreed to it) to get rid of the tv. I think I understand the spirit of your comparison, but it is, I think you may know, not logical for a number of reasons. One of them being that I didn't have to hold my son in a restraining position while he screamed as we got rid of the tv, another being that the negative impact of not having a tv that you imagine might happen has not actually happened (he doesn't feel isolated from peers or lack for things to talk about), and most importantly, we can always go and buy another tv!

I don't think you are really saying that we should encourage kids to indulge in whatever is popular. That would sure be a slippery slope. I appreciate you are trying to ask whether being "too natural" can wind up being damaging in a way that being "too into earrings" can be damaging.

If the motive for making a natural or ap choice is because you are trying to be as careful and respectful of your child as possible, and realize that toxins, tv, harsh words, etc. all cause harm, I don't see how that compares, no.
post #198 of 433
annakiss I still do not see how you can lump together elective pain and
unavoidable pain.

Or is that the point? You see no difference?
post #199 of 433
I wasn't lumping them together. I wasn't making any point about ear piercing at all. I was saying that what wemoon said was over the top.
Quote:
WHAT????? Who does all kinds of things to cause their infants pain???? This is just too much. Never thought I would see the day where this was posted on MDC?
I was pointing out that I disagreed with the idea that we do not cause our infants pain. I was pointing out that on numerous occassions I caused my infant son pain, though of course it was not to pierce him or to remove his foreskin and it certainly wasn't to hit him. I was going off topic, if you will.

ETA - I have tried not to join sides in this argument. My posting was merely to encourage us to watch our tone. I understand that people are very passionate about their position on this issue, which I respect. I was joining the sentiment that we are making some sweeping statements here and must be careful about how we post so as not to violate the MDC User Agreement.
post #200 of 433
I just don't see it as being over any kind of top. There IS a gentle purpose in the MDC statement.

Inflicting unnecessary pain on your child is cruel. Circumcision, spanking, uninformed piercing. It doesn't matter if you blame it on your culture, on your idea of beauty, on ancient civilizations, or your dog. It's still cruel. People have chosen WITHIN cultures to resist the traditions that don't make sense. That is how a culture evolves.

If you accidentally hit their foot on the table---unintentional pain inflicted. Not the same thing as cutting off body parts or ramming metal studs in their body.

I just hope, from all this craziness that one mama rethinks a decision to cause their child needless pain. Have some compassion for their experience.

From Khalil Gribran:

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you.
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
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